AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[decker_cky]

14 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

I won a 1000 point tournament recently with Shaggoth spamming hailstorm. Such a good spell!

Shaggoth is the ideal character to sit beside the herdstone, as both hailstorm and sundering blades are effective from the backline and the shaggoth is resilient enough to shrug off light shooting.

[SwampHeart]

4 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Shaggoth is the ideal character to sit beside the herdstone, as both hailstorm and sundering blades are effective from the backline and the shaggoth is resilient enough to shrug off light shooting.

You don't feel this is a waste of his overall combat potential? I've considered him as my herdstone character but at 180 points with a decent combat profile it seems like a waste to have him just sit the backline all game. 

[decker_cky]

His combat potential isn't actually that good for the points (it's okay for sure in a pinch, and that's part of the shaggoth's value in the backline). 

The shaggoth's main value is in killer support spells, survivability (same points per wound and save as a beastlord) and a large base (let's it be further forward while remaining within 3" of the herdstone and sacrificial unit).

[decker_cky]

Question for the wise beast generals here: What is the best we can make a list with 3 x 30 bestigors look? I know there's a footprint issue, but I feel like it creates uncomfortable issues for your opponents. 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

Question for the wise beast generals here: What is the best we can make a list with 3 x 30 bestigors look? I know there's a footprint issue, but I feel like it creates uncomfortable issues for your opponents. 

Uncomfortable issue?

you definitely never played a real horde army.

my foes would be relieved if I’d only bring around 120models.

uncomfortable issues start at about 400models??

edit:3x30Bestigors is definitely a good idea to go for.

if your keen of a real horde army inwould recommend to just fill your army with bestigors and take maybe for another hero a Shaggoth.

if your not I’d try filling your back line with Enlightements on disc and some hero’s as well as maybe a cygor or Ghorgon.

edit: hiers and idea I had a possibility of making a first turn charge and, enough hero’s to support your Bestigors.

(ps:it’s just an idea so if you don’t like it, you don’t have to use it.)

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Skreech Verminking

[Pandamina]

1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

Question for the wise beast generals here: What is the best we can make a list with 3 x 30 bestigors look? I know there's a footprint issue, but I feel like it creates uncomfortable issues for your opponents. 

I think the question here is what the rest of your army would be. Bestigors aren't that scary by themselves, and require some support, which we currently don't have in the battletome. For exapmle buffs from heroes or suitable command abilities. Ironically i think BoC battletome is just not good enough to field hordes of models competitively.
I'll explain that idea further: a friend of mine has tournament roster with 4x40 plague monks. They are a remarkable unit already, but when it comes to the whole roster they become literally monsters with all the synergies, like prayers from plague furnace or verminlord command ability.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Pandamina

[Skreech Verminking]

11 minutes ago, Pandamina said:

I think the question here is what the rest of your army would be. Bestigors aren't that scary by themselves, and require some support, which we currently don't have in the battletome. For exapmle buffs from heroes or suitable command abilities. Ironically i think BoC battletome is just not good enough to field hordes of models competitively.
I'll explain that idea further: a friend of mine has tournament roster with 4x40 plague monks. They are a remarkable unit already, but when it comes to the whole roster they become literally monsters with all the synergies, like prayers from plague furnace or verminlord command ability.

Most units aren’t scary on their own.

the only exception would probably be stormcast with their elite units

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Skreech Verminking

[SwampHeart]

18 minutes ago, Pandamina said:

I think the question here is what the rest of your army would be. Bestigors aren't that scary by themselves, and require some support, which we currently don't have in the battletome. For exapmle buffs from heroes or suitable command abilities. Ironically i think BoC battletome is just not good enough to field hordes of models competitively.
I'll explain that idea further: a friend of mine has tournament roster with 4x40 plague monks. They are a remarkable unit already, but when it comes to the whole roster they become literally monsters with all the synergies, like prayers from plague furnace or verminlord command ability.

I disagree almost entirely but that's because I think you're looking at the strength of the list wrong. BoC aren't a list that kills very effectively (minus enlightened on disc) they're a fast board control army. Sure they don't have access to tons of sweet synergistic buffs but that's not the point. The point to take advantage of your move 12-16 units of 20-40 models to create sustainable board pressure while you outscore. Yeah plague monks get lots of bonuses, one of those isn't being at the center of the table or deeper on turn one without spending a single CP. This type of thinking is why people are so in love with Desolating Beastherd - its killy so therefore it must be good. But it isn't, it attempts to reorient an army that is designed to win by creating early scoring advantages into an army that wins in combat. I've tally'd up close to 30 games at this point since the book came out including 2 different 1 day 3 round events and I've yet to be ahead against a skilled opponent on units destroyed at the end of the game. Yet somehow I've managed to come out the winner in the majority because my only goal was be ahead on objective points on turn 3. 

TL;DR - Stop trying to win games by being the best fighty army, learn board and objective control. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by SwampHeart

[Pandamina]

7 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

I disagree almost entirely but that's because I think you're looking at the strength of the list wrong. BoC aren't a list that kills very effectively (minus enlightened on disc) they're a fast board control army.

The point of my post was about bestigors army killing things, as i think that is what was asked.  Board control is entirely different topic, and it's quite big, so i wouldn't be covering it right now. 

[SwampHeart]

5 minutes ago, Pandamina said:

The point of my post was about bestigors army killing things, as i think that is what was asked.  Board control is entirely different topic, and it's quite big, so i wouldn't be covering it right now. 

You said "Ironically i think BoC battletome is just not good enough to field hordes of models competitively." which implies hordes are a bad competitive choice. I disagree, hordes are a great competitive choice, just for a different reason than their ability to kill things. You didn't say 'BoC horde armies aren't good at killing things' you stated flat out that BoC horde armies aren't competitive. If I've misunderstood the words you chose, I apologize. 

[Myrdin]

Personally I already thought of using 2 big blobs of 30 Bestigors (just 2, who wants to spend 20 minutes moving your army around.... no thanks, if I did I would play tyranids....or orks..... or skaven....).

Personally Enlightened on Discs 2 units of 6 would compliment them well.

Or 2 chimeras, and couple of centigors to on the flanks.

Though Yout might wanna add some dogs for cushion. The last thing you want is tha deepstriking BS unit Stormcast have with their Axes which deal as many attacks as there are models in 3", with two more wielding star maces (2+ to hit, reroll against chaos, insta D3+1 mortal wounds, on dudes who are 3W and 3+ each.... can also deepstrike and is -1 to hit in that turn.... who ever thought this unit is balanced, needs their ****** kicked in HARD) rush that blob of bestigors and wipe them of the table in single turn.

[Pangu]

1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

Question for the wise beast generals here: What is the best we can make a list with 3 x 30 bestigors look? I know there's a footprint issue, but I feel like it creates uncomfortable issues for your opponents. 

Ive been running 3x30 bestigors quite successfully. Like Swampheart has said, the list isnt built to alpha armies off the table. BoC just cant concentrate enough hitting power into our units unless you build around Enlightened(which i wont do as tzeentch isnt my thing). Instead the army has to grind out scenario wins, which it can be incredibly good at.

My current list is 1 drop with 183 models. 3x30 bestigor, 30 gors, 40 ungors 3x10 raiders, 2x shaman, beastlord, desolating battalion. Typically i push up onto objectives with the gors/raiders turn 1 while summoning in 10x ungors roughly every round to contest back-field objectives. This puts a ton of pressure on the opponent to spread out. The bestigors are usually in my second line and focus on maintaining the objectives or removing key threats. The big block of ungors usually hangs out at the herdstone for sacrifices and comes out late game with the herdstone buff to either maintain objectives or finish off injured units.

The key to the horde army is to keep the waves coming in and always applying pressure while the opponents are slowly being wittled down. The summoning is key to throw out chariots to tie up units or pressure vulnerable characters or apply scenario pressure all over the board with ungors.

[Pandamina]

21 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

You said "Ironically i think BoC battletome is just not good enough to field hordes of models competitively." which implies hordes are a bad competitive choice. I disagree, hordes are a great competitive choice, just for a different reason than their ability to kill things. You didn't say 'BoC horde armies aren't good at killing things' you stated flat out that BoC horde armies aren't competitive. If I've misunderstood the words you chose, I apologize. 

Yes in this particular instance i meant 'BoC horde armies aren't good at killing things' exactly. I'm not a native speaker so it sometimes tricky for me to express my thoughts. Didn't want to insult anybody. I agree that hordes are overall the best choice for the objective games as the nature of such games is to have more models within range of objective to control it. And primordial call mechanic is a great addition to score some remote objects at the end of the game.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Pandamina

[Pangu]

15 minutes ago, Pandamina said:

Yes in this particular instance i meant 'BoC horde armies aren't good at killing things' exactly. I'm not a native speaker so it sometimes tricky for me to express my thoughts. Didn't want to insult anybody. I agree that hordes are overall the best choice for the objective games as the nature of such games is to have more models within range of objective to control it. And primordial call mechanic is a great addition to score some remote objects at the end of the game.

Personally, i use Primordial Call almost exclusively on 3 points summons to summon onto objectives as quickly and as often as i can. You really want to apply scenario pressure as early as possible.

[peasant]

1 hour ago, SwampHeart said:

I disagree almost entirely but that's because I think you're looking at the strength of the list wrong. BoC aren't a list that kills very effectively (minus enlightened on disc) they're a fast board control army. Sure they don't have access to tons of sweet synergistic buffs but that's not the point. The point to take advantage of your move 12-16 units of 20-40 models to create sustainable board pressure while you outscore. Yeah plague monks get lots of bonuses, one of those isn't being at the center of the table or deeper on turn one without spending a single CP. This type of thinking is why people are so in love with Desolating Beastherd - its killy so therefore it must be good. But it isn't, it attempts to reorient an army that is designed to win by creating early scoring advantages into an army that wins in combat. I've tally'd up close to 30 games at this point since the book came out including 2 different 1 day 3 round events and I've yet to be ahead against a skilled opponent on units destroyed at the end of the game. Yet somehow I've managed to come out the winner in the majority because my only goal was be ahead on objective points on turn 3. 

TL;DR - Stop trying to win games by being the best fighty army, learn board and objective control. 

this is one of the best things Ive read in TGA! 

you completely changed my view in this army

 

thx

[Skoll]

3 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

I disagree almost entirely but that's because I think you're looking at the strength of the list wrong. BoC aren't a list that kills very effectively (minus enlightened on disc) they're a fast board control army. Sure they don't have access to tons of sweet synergistic buffs but that's not the point. The point to take advantage of your move 12-16 units of 20-40 models to create sustainable board pressure while you outscore. Yeah plague monks get lots of bonuses, one of those isn't being at the center of the table or deeper on turn one without spending a single CP. This type of thinking is why people are so in love with Desolating Beastherd - its killy so therefore it must be good. But it isn't, it attempts to reorient an army that is designed to win by creating early scoring advantages into an army that wins in combat. I've tally'd up close to 30 games at this point since the book came out including 2 different 1 day 3 round events and I've yet to be ahead against a skilled opponent on units destroyed at the end of the game. Yet somehow I've managed to come out the winner in the majority because my only goal was be ahead on objective points on turn 3. 

TL;DR - Stop trying to win games by being the best fighty army, learn board and objective control. 

I think some people, me included, have problem wrapping our head around something that feels like losing/dying our way to victory. (I conceptually grasp it, but it doesnt.. feel right ?).

The tome since to rely almost solely on that mechanic bar a few units like enlightened that can counter push really well.

 

But old beastmen  builds like minotaur and doom bull supported rushes are entirely unviable in anything but the most casual setting.

 

For an old beastmen player where my approach was buffing my blocks(god do i miss wizans wildform), the approach to debuffing enemy and holding the line is really strange.

 

And i totally see what you mean, and i dont think you are wrong. It feels instead like my preferred playstyle was dropped in an effort to push summoning and drive sales of legions of ungors and bestigors.

 

On the other hand some of the monsters are cool, but we cant really support monstermash play.

[Ragnar Alpaca]

So I don’t have the BoC battletome, but I am considering it. I would like to know about the nurgle battalion. What can you take with it and what does it do? I’m considering getting into BoC and also Maggotkin so running some of both would be cool. 

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

So I don’t have the BoC battletome, but I am considering it. I would like to know about the nurgle battalion. What can you take with it and what does it do? I’m considering getting into BoC and also Maggotkin so running some of both would be cool. 

It's a very open Battalion - basically 1-4 of any non tzeentch hero, 3-8 [Core Units, basically Gors, Ungors, Minos) and then 0-8 [Any other non tzeentch unit in the book], 0-2 Ghorgon or Cygor. It gives you the opportunity for your units to deal MWs to units in a radius when they die. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by SwampHeart

[Ragnar Alpaca]

Ok thanks @SwampHeart how good is this battalion compared to the others, I haven’t seen much talk of it? Is it that bad?

[Pangu]

27 minutes ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

Ok thanks @SwampHeart how good is this battalion compared to the others, I haven’t seen much talk of it? Is it that bad?

Its a medicore battalion in the majority of scenarios. Its expensive and the battalion ability is pretty poor. It does offer a lot of flexibility in unit selection though, so if you have a specific build in mind or want to run Beasts with the Maggotkin allegiance its at least playable.

[Entombet]

Hello, my army is slowly painting itself. Currently it will look like that

Allegiance: Beasts Of Chaos
- Greatfray: Gavespawn
Beastlord (90)
Great Bray Shaman (100)
Great Bray Shaman (100)
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
40 x Ungors (200)
- Shortspears & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
20 x Bestigors (240)
10 x Bestigors (120)
40 x Ungor Raiders (320)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc(280)
1 x Tuskgor Chariots (60)
Desolating Beastherd (150)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 181

Many tests before me. Ill try allheard for sure to test how good summoning can be.

[FinnTheBin]

Hello, was a bit confused by the Beast of chaos FAQ. 

It says if you take one of the god aligned formation they gain that gods faction as well as beasts of chaos. 

Does that mean if I took say, the Slaanesh formation could I use the Beast of Chaos allegiance abilities and take Slaanesh daemon allies? 

[peasant]

6 minutes ago, FinnTheBin said:

Hello, was a bit confused by the Beast of chaos FAQ. 

It says if you take one of the god aligned formation they gain that gods faction as well as beasts of chaos. 

Does that mean if I took say, the Slaanesh formation could I use the Beast of Chaos allegiance abilities and take Slaanesh daemon allies? 

no, is the opposite

[FinnTheBin]

26 minutes ago, peasant said:

no, is the opposite

Oh thats a shame. Whats the point of them gaining the faction in that case?

 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 minutes ago, FinnTheBin said:

Oh thats a shame. Whats the point of them gaining the faction in that case?

 

So you could have the Khorne etc. allegiance abilities for your Beastmen.

in other word you could field a full army out of Gors and Bullgors with the brazen bull formation and be a part of a Khorne warband.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Skreech Verminking