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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

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So... I want to run Brass despoilers with a Bloodsecrator. If I have understood correctly:

a) I cannot do that with beasts of chaos allegiance, as I can’t ally in a Bloodsecrator.

b) I can do it under the grand alliance chaos, as I can take battalions from any chaos, right? In this case, the command traits and artifacts would either have to come from general chaos, or from realms.

c) I can’t do it with blades of khorne allegiance, as the battalion doesn’t have a faction so is assumed to be beasts of chaos. 

Have I understood right? The only way to buff my khorne minotaurs with khorne heroes is under chaos grand alliance?

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SUPPOSEDLY there is some sort of "rule breaker" text that allows the God Battalions to not count towards allies.

 

Said text doesn't seem to actually be in the book, so it could be in a FAQ/Errata. Kind of like what happened to Space Wolves, but Space Wolves they flat out said they goofed up. They haven't been as official on this on the Warhammer Community site, we've been using the facebook page/stream content.

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The wording for the Brayblast Trumpet says it only works on units arriving via Brayherd Ambush but surely it counts for units arriving via summons too? Otherwise you can basically only use it turn 1...

5 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Also man I LOVE the different realm color schemes they had examples off. I never thought of glowing eyes like the Shyishan one!

 

The Shyish one was really cool, also liked  the Darkwalker and Ulguan Gor, pity they left out Chamon!

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As I read through the book, I'm starting to hate just how many choices I have! I want to bring all my favorite toys, but man are decisions hard to make. And then, I found out you can ally in a Chaos War Mammoth. That seems like a pretty OK choice to build a list around.

I'm considering running something like this:

Allegiance: Gavespawn
Beastlord (90) (General, Mutating Gnarlblade)
Great Bray Shaman (100) (Knowing Eye, Tendrils)
Great Bray Shaman (100) (Savage Dominion)
Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (180) (Sundering Blades)
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
30 x Bestigors (300)
30 x Bestigors (300)
1 x Tuskgor Chariots (60)
10 x Ungor Raiders (80)
Ghorgon (200)
Chaos War Mammoth (320)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Desolating Brayherd(150)

Total: 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 320 / 400
Wounds: 143

 

The idea is to throw the chariot, Beastlord, a shaman, and a squad of Bestigor into ambush while just pushing everything else up on the board. I feel like the lack of spawn mainboard might be missed, but at 3 points to bring out in I should be able to get one turn two to use the command ability where it's needed. I was also considering Allherd and going summon heavy, but the artifact for Gavespawn is just sooo good.

 

Anyone else started crunching numbers for their lists?

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1 hour ago, Baron Wastelands said:

So... I want to run Brass despoilers with a Bloodsecrator. If I have understood correctly:

a) I cannot do that with beasts of chaos allegiance, as I can’t ally in a Bloodsecrator.

b) I can do it under the grand alliance chaos, as I can take battalions from any chaos, right? In this case, the command traits and artifacts would either have to come from general chaos, or from realms.

c) I can’t do it with blades of khorne allegiance, as the battalion doesn’t have a faction so is assumed to be beasts of chaos. 

Have I understood right? The only way to buff my khorne minotaurs with khorne heroes is under chaos grand alliance?

 

There's going to be a clarification on it, but the battalions allow you to park the beasts in the respective armies in the same way that tzaangors can slot into Desciples of Tzeentch armies.

Think of it like this...

If you want the battle traits, artefacts and goodies in the Beasts book, then they need to be Beasts of Chaos Allegiance and allied into the Blades of Khorne.

If you want to run the khorne army as a Khorne army - which is what I do, then you pick up the battalion, fill the carrier bag with the required necessaries to fulfil the requirement and they gain the keyword to their bar - thus allowing you to play them in a Khorne army.

The battalion starts as a beasts of chaos faction, but the very nature of the battalion means that it has the option to become Khorne as well.  Like I say think of it like Tzaangors in a Tzeentch allegiance.     You're essentially paying points to give them the god mark keyword.:)

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3 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

 

There's going to be a clarification on it, but the battalions allow you to park the beasts in the respective armies in the same way that tzaangors can slot into Desciples of Tzeentch armies.

Think of it like this...

If you want the battle traits, artefacts and goodies in the Beasts book, then they need to be Beasts of Chaos Allegiance and allied into the Blades of Khorne.

If you want to run the khorne army as a Khorne army - which is what I do, then you pick up the battalion, fill the carrier bag with the required necessaries to fulfil the requirement and they gain the keyword to their bar - thus allowing you to play them in a Khorne army.

The battalion starts as a beasts of chaos faction, but the very nature of the battalion means that it has the option to become Khorne as well.  Like I say think of it like Tzaangors in a Tzeentch allegiance.     You're essentially paying points to give them the god mark keyword.:)

Beasts can't take BoK as allies, so that is not an option.

For those wondering about the main issue though, unless there is an FAQ, even though the battalion gives all the units within it the god keyword, since the battalion itself lacks the keyword, the whole thing and all units within count as allies. Per the FAQ:

"Q: The rules say that a warscroll battalion can include allies and that they don’t count against the number of allies in the army. Does this rule only apply to battalions that share the same allegiance as the army, but that have units from two different factions (a battalion in a Daughters of Khaine army that has Daughters of Khaine and Stormcast Eternals units, for example)?

A: Yes. The faction a warscroll battalion belongs to is shown on its warscroll, above the title of the battalion. In addition, the battalion is assumed to belong to the Grand Alliance that its faction is a part of. Warscroll battalions that share the same allegiance as an army can always be taken as part of the army, and if they include any allied units, these units do not count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (or against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle). An army can include a warscroll battalion of a different allegiance to the rest of the army, but if it does so the units in it do count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (and the points for the battalion and the units in it count against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle)."

Now the designers have said leading up to the books release that the battalions were meant to let you take BoC units under the god allegiances. So this is probably just an oversight. However we have had book designers overturned in the past (such as when the writers of DoT said you could use destiny dice on mortal wound rolls).

Edited by AverageBoss

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"The faction a warscroll battalion belongs to is shown on its warscroll, above the title of the battalion."

The marked beast of chaos battallion has no key word at all. Checking the tzeentch battle tome there battllions all have a key word as described in The quote. This probably so they can fit into the god specific armies. If they don't you have a problem because they have no keyword so that would mean they are not beast of chaos as well. You would have to allie them in as well.

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19 minutes ago, Poryague said:

"The faction a warscroll battalion belongs to is shown on its warscroll, above the title of the battalion."

The marked beast of chaos battallion has no key word at all. Checking the tzeentch battle tome there battllions all have a key word as described in The quote. This probably so they can fit into the god specific armies. If they don't you have a problem because they have no keyword so that would mean they are not beast of chaos as well. You would have to allie them in as well.

Not quite. Somewhere it also says (helpful right?) that if there is no keyword, then assume the allegiance is the containing battletome. Maybe someone has the citation for this? I don't remember where it is...

 

Edit: found it, Core Rules faq, paragraph on the right in red text:

Untitled.png.5ea42bb5dc19f395bdfdc9ab92a4bc7d.png

 

Edited by Domowoj
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I Hope They rebase ungors Soon, is Too bad not Been Able to Buy them in My FLGS (Out of The START collecting)

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These battalions in my opinion are designed to make a whole army marked, not to take it out of the beast of chaos alliance

 

They will probably will do the same for slaves/everchosen, battalions of a specific God the take into a slaves/everchosen alliance

(mark with it varanguard without archaon) 

Edited by calcysimon

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46 minutes ago, calcysimon said:

These battalions in my opinion are designed to make a whole army marked, not to take it out of the beast of chaos alliance

But what’s the point? Unless I can have something in the army which affects models with the (e.g.) khorne keyword, then it’s redundant to have it. And nothing in BoC does.

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11 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

But what’s the point? Unless I can have something in the army which affects models with the (e.g.) khorne keyword, then it’s redundant to have it. And nothing in BoC does.

believe me, having the nurgle keyword can completely mess with the strategy of a nurgle/pestilens army, when they realize most of their spells or prayer will do NOTHING against you

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180 points to have a buff on the whole army and field it in 1 turn ?

Plus BoC alliance 

Plus the trait from allherd/ecc

It's the same for the everchosen old battalions that can't be used in gods army, just deal with it, for now (maybe they will change it but it's like they will never do it) 

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4 minutes ago, calcysimon said:

180 points to have a buff on the whole army and field it in 1 turn ?

Plus BoC alliance 

Plus the trait from allherd/ecc

It's the same for the everchosen old battalions that can't be used in gods army, just deal with it, for now (maybe they will change it but it's like they will never do it) 

they officially said in a stream that they will FAQ it. Meanwhile, everchosen players will suck it up

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9 minutes ago, ledha said:

believe me, having the nurgle keyword can completely mess with the strategy of a nurgle/pestilens army, when they realize most of their spells or prayer will do NOTHING against you

Not 100% sure but 3 buffs of the wheel trait say : add 2 to nurgle move, add 1 to wound to nurgle units, 3 nurgle units heal d3 in their hero phase

If u face a nurgle army you take his buffs from those traits?

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3 minutes ago, ledha said:

they officially said in a stream that they will FAQ it. Meanwhile, everchosen players will suck it up

Since right now u can't use at all the battalion? since u can't field 8 everchosen units

Archaon and 7 varanguard... All slaves are out of the alliance

Edited by calcysimon

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7 minutes ago, calcysimon said:

Since right now u can't use at all the battalion? since u can't field 8 everchosen units

Archaon and 7 varanguard... All slaves are out of the alliance

you don't need everchosen unit, you just need mortal khorne/nurgle/tzeentch/slaneesh unit. The bataillion and units count as everchosen in the ally matrice (preventing you to using it in BOCK, nurlge, etc), but if you play grand alliance chaos (the only way to play those battailion right now) it's irrelevant anyway

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35 minutes ago, ledha said:

believe me, having the nurgle keyword can completely mess with the strategy of a nurgle/pestilens army, when they realize most of their spells or prayer will do NOTHING against you

Agreed. In that specific instance. But for khorne, as in my example, there is no benefit.

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Here’s a question. Day my doombull is thebgeberal and my army is mainly warherd, if I take a brayshaman can I plop a brayherd artefact on him even though by doombull is the general, or as my doombull is the general do i have to select a warherd artefact?

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7 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Beasts can't take BoK as allies, so that is not an option.

For those wondering about the main issue though, unless there is an FAQ, even though the battalion gives all the units within it the god keyword, since the battalion itself lacks the keyword, the whole thing and all units within count as allies. Per the FAQ:

"Q: The rules say that a warscroll battalion can include allies and that they don’t count against the number of allies in the army. Does this rule only apply to battalions that share the same allegiance as the army, but that have units from two different factions (a battalion in a Daughters of Khaine army that has Daughters of Khaine and Stormcast Eternals units, for example)?

A: Yes. The faction a warscroll battalion belongs to is shown on its warscroll, above the title of the battalion. In addition, the battalion is assumed to belong to the Grand Alliance that its faction is a part of. Warscroll battalions that share the same allegiance as an army can always be taken as part of the army, and if they include any allied units, these units do not count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (or against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle). An army can include a warscroll battalion of a different allegiance to the rest of the army, but if it does so the units in it do count against the limits on the number of allies the army can have (and the points for the battalion and the units in it count against the points limit that can be spent on allies in a Pitched Battle)."

Now the designers have said leading up to the books release that the battalions were meant to let you take BoC units under the god allegiances. So this is probably just an oversight. However we have had book designers overturned in the past (such as when the writers of DoT said you could use destiny dice on mortal wound rolls).

So.. we need proper FAQ.

Beasts of Chaos as a new Faction cannot take Blades of Khorne as allies,  only slaves to darkness.. however...

Blades of Khorne can take:

Brayherds / warherds/ Monsters of Chaos / chaos Gargants - all now under the Beasts of Chaos banner.

My thinking is that in the next errata / faq Blades of Khorne players (as will other books - Maggotkin / desciples etc)  will be told to replace all of those keywords with Beasts of Chaos, which opens up the god specific battalions and allows it to make sense in the wider chaos spectrum.

I remain ever hopeful!

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35 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

Agreed. In that specific instance. But for khorne, as in my example, there is no benefit.

No benefit? The batt is competitively priced for what it gives.

Once the FAQ lets BoK take the Battalion then we can have some fun!

Bloodsecrator works on all Khorne, so extra attacks, no battleshock, and relic banners (I’ll Taketo’s banner of rage to make the re-roll 1s to hit into re-roll all within 8”).

Bloodstoker works on all Khorne so +3 to run and charge, and re-roll 1s to wound.

Slaughterpriest prayers work on all Khorne too, so you can have +1 to saves, +1 to hit or D3 wounds healed for example.

Lots of options! :D

...gotta get that FAQ though.

Edited by Colonel Cabbage
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A good compromise could be if models in a battalion won't count as allies as long as they are marked, but the battalion cost itself comes off your ally points allowance.

This would make everchosen battalions and marked BoC battalions usable within the god armies but still restrictive.

 

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Here’s a question. Say my doombull is the general and my army is mainly warherd, if I take a brayshaman can I plop a brayherd artefact on him even though my doombull is the general, or as my doombull is the general do i have to select a warherd artefact?

 

Edited by Dracothjay

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5 minutes ago, Dracothjay said:

Here’s a question. Say my doombull is the general and my army is mainly warherd, if I take a brayshaman can I plop a brayherd artefact on him even though my doombull is the general, or as my doombull is the general do i have to select a warherd artefact?

 

Your allegiance will be beasts of chaos, not warherd. So you can pick an artifact from any of the lists and put it on any hero of the appropriate keyword

You will have to choose a warherd command trait though

Edited by Retro
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12 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

SUPPOSEDLY there is some sort of "rule breaker" text that allows the God Battalions to not count towards allies.

 

Said text doesn't seem to actually be in the book, so it could be in a FAQ/Errata. Kind of like what happened to Space Wolves, but Space Wolves they flat out said they goofed up. They haven't been as official on this on the Warhammer Community site, we've been using the facebook page/stream content.

Yes, they don't count as Allies as they had the God keyword. So your allegiance is Blades of Khorne and therefore you can include a Brass Despoilers formation as all the models gain the KHORNE keyword.

Means you don't get a Herdstone, the choice of a Great Frey, any ambush abilities etc.

However the members of the Brass Despoilers get any allegiance abilities of Blades of Khorne

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