AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[The Red King]

We got like 4 changes and one of those was a nerf to the wildfire taurus effect AND casting value.

 

They added a way to take beasts into khorne armies but no way to take khorne into beast armies. It's like they're begging us to please stop playing this army and buy something new. Luckily my group dpesnt mind gor and bestigor playing "counts as bloodreaver/ blood warrior" so I suppose I'll be playing "blades of khorne" until we get a book in 5 years...

 

Guess my shaggoth is about to become a chaos lord on karkadrak or khorne lord on juggernaut? 

 

Hah side note if I put the doombull in my blades of khorne army (hes not a wizard) Then give him the book artifact (he becomes a wizard) I can still cast BoC endless spells. Not worth it though considering the nerf and the malus to cast in Blades of Khorne. Just a fun thought.

 

I'm gonna miss you guys but it seems I'm off to the BoK forum to run my proxy army (with local group permission of course)

Edited July 2, 2021 by The Red King

[Maddpainting]

You can not take BoC endless spells if you coalition a unit.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Maddpainting

[Fyrenn]

25 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Yep, can not use Slaangors. 

Wildfire Taurus also effects us if we are within 3" of it now too.

Not changed to Raiders, no other warscroll change like many armies, no marks but instead a bad coalition rule for other armies. Over all not idea for us.

Minor buff, Terrain can be near enemy territories now and Ravening Direflock got a small buff. 

Mm, yeah, at first I thought the main difference was that the Taurus never did d6 anymore, which frankly is fine because it can move more.  I didn't realize that not only can it effect BoC units now, it ALSO only gives strike last if it's still within 3", not if the unit takes damage.  

So.. that's even worse.  you can't run it across a group to give multiple strike lasts based on damage, it really only works if you can park it, idk, right behind the unit you're dealing with?

[Maddpainting]

Its a large nerf for sure, also 7 to cast makes it worst. Just take a Sphynax instead lol.

[The Red King]

14 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

You can not take BoC endless spells if you coalition a unit.

Even better.

 

Here's a meme to represent my feelings. I think I put more effort into making this than GW put into our FAQ.

[Vaporlocke]

A day without ****** over BoC is like a day without sunshine for GW. 

[Chaos Shepard]

I don't get people's negativity on the Wild Fire Taurus. It lost D6 and only does D3 on a 2+ but it moved twice as often. Then you have people complaining that the strike last can effect us, news flash it could always effect us, difference now is that we have full control of it(so long as the wizard is alive). It went up in point but everything went up in points. It is one harder to cast but that also means it is one harder to dispel.

I think the problem is that people are comparing the old profile with the new rules when you need to compare the old profile with the old rules to the new profile with the new rules. Frankly I was expecting it to be much worse, making it only target one unit or something.

[The Red King]

11 minutes ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I don't get people's negativity on the Wild Fire Taurus. It lost D6 and only does D3 on a 2+ but it moved twice as often. Then you have people complaining that the strike last can effect us, news flash it could always effect us, difference now is that we have full control of it(so long as the wizard is alive). It went up in point but everything went up in points. It is one harder to cast but that also means it is one harder to dispel.

I think the problem is that people are comparing the old profile with the new rules when you need to compare the old profile with the old rules to the new profile with the new rules. Frankly I was expecting it to be much worse, making it only target one unit or something.

We just don't have the magical might to reliably get it out or keep it out is my biggest gripe. Coupled with having more limited placement options unless you want to hit yourself (I dont care about the damage that isn't what it was for but the roll for it to happen doesnt make it better) and it's too risky a way to spend 110 points imo.

[Chaos Shepard]

There is going to be more MSU running around and the fact that it moves twice as often can lead to a lot of compounded mortal wounds.

Now the strike last ability probably wont effect more than 3 enemy units. But this will effect with absolute certainty. Strike last is still an amazing ability. Just don't charge into the range of the it, but you can still pile into range with no problem because at that point you are already activating and you should have the chance to move it again before the next combat phase. 

As far as making it more reliable to cast the Tzaangor Shaman has a once per game reroll. Alternatively you could take the master of magic command trait for a once per turn reroll.

[Maddpainting]

1 hour ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I don't get people's negativity on the Wild Fire Taurus. It lost D6 and only does D3 on a 2+ but it moved twice as often. Then you have people complaining that the strike last can effect us, news flash it could always effect us, difference now is that we have full control of it(so long as the wizard is alive). It went up in point but everything went up in points. It is one harder to cast but that also means it is one harder to dispel.

I think the problem is that people are comparing the old profile with the new rules when you need to compare the old profile with the old rules to the new profile with the new rules. Frankly I was expecting it to be much worse, making it only target one unit or something.

It casts on 7 now, we have no plus to cast and needs a Tshaman to reliable get it off. Also it is within 3" not what it flys over, so we need to make sure its not near us when we want to engage in combat, that also means armies that can move before combat (Like IJ, Khorne, LRL, etc...) they can just walk away from it. 

 Finally we could just ally in the Mindstealer Sphiranx to make 1 unit fight last as well. We gain another unit and monster. It also works on a 16.7% chance and not a 50/50 chance that can also just be stopped, GL getting the Taurus to work against any magical army.

EDIT: PS, it has nothing to do with old vs new, or that it deals less MW's we take it for fight last, it is hard to get off b.c of cast on 7, so many armies has denies now b.c they have to, it costs 110pts which is a lot. Its just not worth that amount of points at all.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Maddpainting

[Enoby]

5 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

that also means armies that can move before combat (Like IJ, Khorne, LRL, etc...) they can just walk away from it. 

Thinking about it, most armies can now do that with the new command ability. Not that it'll always be available (or you'll always roll high enough), but if I had a high value unit within 3" of the taurus, I'd just redeploy myself out of there

[Dolomedes]

On 6/27/2021 at 4:36 AM, The Red King said:

Honestly BoC feels like Dark Eldar pre 8th edition. I played from the tail end of 5th through the middle of 8th and we spent a long time with no updates to our rules.

 

It wasn't always fun but there was a pride in figuring out how to play around and win with an army that was so far behind the curve. What ultimately happened is that Dark Eldar shed the players who didn't care about the army because it wasn't competitive and it left us with a very healthy community that also never realized they were getting pretty darn good at the game. When 8th came out and everyone got a real even playing field again Dark Eldar winrates sky rocketed, not because they were OP (at the time mind you I understand they're pretty strong right now too) but because everyone of their players that were still playing them was an expert at Dark Eldar. They knew everything about their army because they were passionate fans of the Dark Eldar, not just players. When they were allowed to take the handicap off they realized they'd learned quite a bit about how to win even with the deck stacked against you and it made them better players overall.

 

 I like to imagine that BoC are going through something similar. Now I represent a different class of BoC player because I'm no expert, but I am passionate about them or I wouldn't play them. I know they're "bad" in the competitive sense but I'm not playing them because they'll win my games for me, and that passion for the faction translates into a ravenous consumption of all things Beasts. I'm reading books, forums, repeatedly pouring over every shred of tactical information I can scavenge because I know I'm gonna need it. That doesn't make it more fun or bearable to get tabled on the top of 2 by a kharadron fleet you never even got to hit and it's okay to get tired of playing that, but at least you know you lost with an army you're an actual fan of and that commitment is commendable.

Beastmen have been 'hard mode' since 8th. To win, you have to be the cunning Beastlord and pour over all of the tactics you can get. Eventually you develop a knack for it. If we ever get a half decent ruleset and some fresh models, there's no doubt in my mind that BoC players will be hammering the top tables and we'll end up getting nerfed back into the woods again. But that's exactly what our faction is about.  

[Popisdead]

On 7/2/2021 at 12:26 PM, Chaos Shepard said:

There is going to be more MSU running around and the fact that it moves twice as often can lead to a lot of compounded mortal wounds.

I felt this too.  I didn't think it was as hard a nerf a people made it out to.

On 7/3/2021 at 9:40 AM, Dolomedes said:

Beastmen have been 'hard mode' since 6th. 

Fixed that for you.

[Salyx]

 

Beastmen in 6th were great. Back then I started playing Hordes of Chaos and could rarely pull a win until I integrated Beastmen into my army, especially Beastlord (little worse than Chaos Lord for a lot less points), Gor/Ungor Herds, Minotaurs, Dragon Ogres, Chariots... so many units at such a good value. Nowadays, both armies suck, StD just a little less...

[Chaos Shepard]

I might have figured out why Dragon Ogors when up. With easy access to armor modifiers, armor saves seem to go a lot further than they use to. Then you add in the +1 cap, having a higher base save also becomes more important. Dragon Ogors only pay 10pts per wound with a 4+ base armor save. Dragon Ogors might be one of our best choice for a defensive option.

[Maddpainting]

34 minutes ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I might have figured out why Dragon Ogors when up. With easy access to armor modifiers, armor saves seem to go a lot further than they use to. Then you add in the +1 cap, having a higher base save also becomes more important. Dragon Ogors only pay 10pts per wound with a 4+ base armor save. Dragon Ogors might be one of our best choice for a defensive option.

The 3 games I played they all died turn 1 or turn 2, even with +1 to saves, its just 15 wounds and 1/2 that damage was from MW's. I'm taking them out of my list now. 

[The Red King]

Side note I did finish the shaggoth conversion who I now can't take if I want any khorne marked beasts (why cant we mix marks like StD?) So instead he's become a chaos lord on karkadrak.

[Maddpainting]

We could not take Shaggoths before and now at least you can in Blades of Khrone army. 

[The Red King]

48 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

We could not take Shaggoths before and now at least you can in Blades of Khrone army. 

... dragon ogre shaggoth?

[Chaos Shepard]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

The 3 games I played they all died turn 1 or turn 2, even with +1 to saves, its just 15 wounds and 1/2 that damage was from MW's. I'm taking them out of my list now. 

That sounds like useful information. What armies where you playing against and what did they use to kill them. Where you fielding one unit of Dragon Ogors or did the enemy hunt down and slaughter multiple units.

I am not trying to say Dragon Ogors are secretly a super unit. They lack a necessary punching power. I am trying to play to their strengths. This might mean investing more to their defense. Depending on the threat, perhaps +2 armor save is necessary. If you where to take 6 of them perhaps running them as singe unit to better stack buffs might be a better option despite of the nightmare that is coherency. And yes, mortal wounds will be this units Achilles' heel. If you regularly face off against these kinds of armies(and there are plenty of them) Dragon Ogors might not be that great of an option for you.

Even after all this, they are probably not going to stand up to most well tuned hammer units. They might be fairly cheap in a per wound cost but if the enemy can wipe anything with a single attack you are better off with a over all cheaper speed bump unit. They would be best used to hold off mid-tier threats, a good bully or anti-bully unit. 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

We could not take Shaggoths before and now at least you can in Blades of Khrone army. 

Yes, the first and only khorne wizard,

ever to have existed😂

[Maddpainting]

16 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

That sounds like useful information. What armies where you playing against and what did they use to kill them. Where you fielding one unit of Dragon Ogors or did the enemy hunt down and slaughter multiple units.

I am not trying to say Dragon Ogors are secretly a super unit. They lack a necessary punching power. I am trying to play to their strengths. This might mean investing more to their defense. Depending on the threat, perhaps +2 armor save is necessary. If you where to take 6 of them perhaps running them as singe unit to better stack buffs might be a better option despite of the nightmare that is coherency. And yes, mortal wounds will be this units Achilles' heel. If you regularly face off against these kinds of armies(and there are plenty of them) Dragon Ogors might not be that great of an option for you.

Even after all this, they are probably not going to stand up to most well tuned hammer units. They might be fairly cheap in a per wound cost but if the enemy can wipe anything with a single attack you are better off with a over all cheaper speed bump unit. They would be best used to hold off mid-tier threats, a good bully or anti-bully unit. 

Deepkin, LRL, and StD (with Be'lakor ofc).

Yeah they were basically a speed bump only, but could Gors do it with a 10man? Thats the question on if they are worth taking or now.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Maddpainting

[Incredebilis]

On 7/7/2021 at 6:14 PM, Skreech Verminking said:

Yes, the first and only khorne wizard,

ever to have existed😂

I’m confused on how this works. Can’t Wizards not receive the Khorne keyword? Or is that BoC don’t need the Khorne keyword to be in a Blades of Khorne army now?

[Fazhak]

Quick observation:

Beasts of Chaos are one of the few factions with access to two different ways to stop Inspiring Presence.

Both the Horroghast and Ravening Direflock spells prevent use of that Command Ability. I've found that a unit of six Dragon Ogors, backed by a Dragon Ogor Shaggoth casting/controlling these spells, has a solid way to pin and grind down opposing units. It's a helpful utility; not game winning in itself, but a useful addition to the Thunderscorn toolbox.

I run two such Thunderscorn pairings. Being able to park on midfield objectives and deny challengers access to Inspiring Presence is both surprising to my opponent and useful to me. Meanwhile, my two Cockatrices hunt faction terrain and the occasional smaller opposing monsters, my Warherd units inflict casualties, and my Brayherd units either scramble in my opponent's backfield or staff the Herdstone's sacrificial fires.

Like Bullgors, I recommend using Dragon Ogors in units of six or more. At their minimum unit size, they might be a bit too vulnerable to an opponent's mortal wound tricks, but at a unit size of six or more I think Dragon Ogors can be supported for success. Team each such unit with an accompanying Shaggoth, so to (1) benefit from re-rolling 1s on attacks and (2) deny opposing units access to Inspiring Presence.

[Skeesh]

Hi there, I'm kinda new to AoS and I do want to play BoC because they look awesome. I was looking at battlescribe and I had a question. Aren't tzaangors kinda just better than most units from the actual BoC line? Like blobs of 20 with the shields make them super tanky even if they are kinda points inefficient. What gives with that?

I was looking at bullgors or dragon ogors but still nothing stacks up and then making them battleline with a decent caster in the form of a shaman seems like a good way to play this army somewhat competitively...