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AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion


Gaz Taylor
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25 minutes ago, Skarband said:

Hi how about gorebulls? I never Play BoC but i whant to start new army BoC are the same tier like khorne? Can we fight with top tier armies? DoK? LrL? Seraphon?

 

We are a weaker book for sure, but that doesn't mean we can not win, the problem is now that 3.0 is coming out and the game is so hugely change it is very hard to say if we are weaker by a lot or by a little as many armies (other than a few) has lost a lot of their damage. 

I would at least wait till we get the 3.0 FAQs for each army and play some games to understand 3.0 enough to know what is strong and what is not. Yes Wizards and Shooting is still really strong, but we do have tools at least.

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I feel good about the opportunities this new edition creates, even though I do wonder about "rule creep" complicating a system that was originally marketed as "four pages is all you need." Ultimately, I think these new changes can be a good thing and I'm intrigued by where it all goes.

I'm exploring the following list's possibilities and having fun with it. This two drop build moves very quickly to take the center of the table. It is currently organized as two Battle Regiment battalions; while I might later explore a reorganization as one Warlord battalion and one Battle regiment battalion, for now the two drop option is interesting to me. By the way, much of the list re-rolls hit rolls of 1, which is both functionally helpful and a fun, thematic callback to Warhammer Fantasy's Primal Fury rule. For example, I position each Dragon Ogor unit with a Shaggoth, so to hopefully ensure the Dragon Ogors' Storm Rage buff.

Grashrak Fellhoof and its Despoilers staff the Herdstone, positioned to focus on Primal Call sacrifices and perhaps give the Gor unit an initial speed buff should I choose not to use the Gor unit for ambushing. The two Cockatrice fly for blocking and monstrous rampages. The Shaggoths and Dragon Ogors are surprisingly resilient, given their multiple options for healing, and are especially good at holding objectives. This list's speed also helps it overcome delaying tactics an opponent might deploy by using chaff as speedbumps.

In the best case scenario, should I be positioned for early charges, I hopefully can cast Wildfire Taurus successfully with the non-general Shaggoth-Dragon Ogor unit pair, charge with both that pair and the general Shaggoth-Dragon Ogor unit pair, so that I get to attack with all Shaggoths and Dragon Ogor units prior to my opponent being able to activate a meaningful counterattack. This involves: (1) the Lightning-fast Monstrosity Shaggoth general attacking at the start of the combat phase before activations, (2) its paired Dragon Ogor unit attacking as my first activation, and (3) the other Shaggoth-Dragon Ogor pair attacking the charged target of the Wildfire Taurus-debuff before that target gets to hurt them.

Here's the build:

BEASTS OF CHAOS (1995pt)

Greatfray - None

Realm - Undecided at this time

#1 BATTLE REGIMENT (880pt)

Dragon Ogor Shaggoth - 185pt

- General

- Command Trait: Lightning-Fast Monstrosity

- Spell: Thunderwave

Grashnak Fellhoof - 150pt

- Spell: Savage Dominion

x6 Dragon Ogors - 300pt (1st of 4 Reinforced Units, 1st of 3 Battleline Units)

- x6 Draconic War-glaives

x20 Gors - 150pt (2nd of 4 Reinforced Units, 2nd of 3 Battleline Units)

- Pair of Gor Blades

Cockatrice - 95pt

#2 BATTLE REGIMENT (1005pt)

Dragon Ogor Shaggoth - 185pt

- Artefact: Horn of the Tempest

- Spell: Sundering Blades

Doombull - 115pt

x6 Dragon Ogors - 300pt (3rd of 4 Reinforced Units, 3rd of 3 Battleline Units)

- x6 Draconic War-glaives

x6 Bullgors - 310pt (4th of 4 Reinforced Units)

- Pair of Bullgor Axes

Cockatrice - 95pt

ENDLESS SPELLS (110pt)

Wildfire Taurus - 110pt

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If the new environment turns out to be particularly rough during the Battleshock Phase, I might very well change the above list to be Allherd to benefit from that Greatfray's Bestial Might ability. If I do make it Allherd, I'll likely reorganize the list so to use a Warlord battalion and a Battle Regiment battalion.

This then becomes a five drop list. While I could keep it with the above organization, remain two drop, and still be Allherd, my Thunderscorn would lose the benefit of the Horn of the Tempest artefact. I like the option of run and charge Thunderscorn. To therefore have two artefacts, I would have to take a Warlord or Command Entourage battalion.

In doing so, I would lose the coordinated "first strike" potential on my Thunderscorn charges, since my general would lose access to Lightning-fast Monstrosity, but Dominator is nonetheless a good command trait. I would likely give my Doombull the Allherd's Blade of the Desecrator, letting it better hunt down what I expect will be more prevalent units of 10 models. 

Below is how I suspect an Allherd version of my list would be organized:

BEASTS OF CHAOS (1995pt)

Greatfray - Allherd

Realm - Undecided at this time

WARLORD (600pt)

Dragon Ogor Shaggoth - 185pt

- General

- Command Trait: Dominator

- Artefact: Horn of the Tempest

- Spell: Sundering Blades

Grashrak Fellhoof - 150pt

- Spell: Savage Dominion

Doombull - 115pt

- Artefact: Blade of the Desecrator

x20 Gors - 150pt (1st of 4 Reinforced Units, 1st of 3 Battleline Units)

- Pair of Gor Blades

BATTLE REGIMENT (1285pt)

Dragon Ogor Shaggoth - 185pt

- Spell: Sundering Blades

x6 Dragon Ogors - 300pt (2nd of 4 Reinforced Units, 2nd of 3 Battleline Units)

- x6 Draconic War-glaives

x6 Dragon Ogors - 300pt (3rd of 4 Reinforced Units, 3rd of 3 Battleline Units)

- x6 Draconic War-glaives

x6 Bullgors - 310pt (4th of 4 Reinforced Units)

- Pair of Bullgor Axes

Cockatrice - 95pt

Cockatrice - 95pt

ENDLESS SPELLS (110pt)

Wildfire Taurus - 110pt

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So after playing a game I can say I like it a lot. There are still things I do not like (coherency for example, i hate it) but I do like it more than 2.0.  The way Heroic, Monstrous commands work, and all the CP we get, it really adds to the game. Enlighten felt great compare to Bestigors, sure bestigors has better saves so I still want both, sadly Bestigors damage is way lower now. The Cockatrice did wonderful lol. For sure taking at least 2 every game. Tany Shaggoth worked really well at staying alive but man his damage sucks. 

Edited by Maddpainting
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If I ran Bestigors I would suicide pile-in to get all the attacks if the unit had more than 9 models. I put them in my list assuming they wont survive the round they get into combat anyway.

I do think that footsie enlightened do look pretty good this edition though.

Edited by Sinfullyvannila
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So I played 3 1k games on saturday and what I can tell you is that the Shaggoth does not die. With Heroic Recover each player turn, Summon Lightning and Amulet of Destiny. He was very consistent in his damage whilst the Doombull went off on adventures with his 5 damage swings. The Ghorgon and Bulls feel about the same, he got Roar off once, but with being Gavespawn near a Spawn and Titanic Fury, he was generally killing what he wanted before retaliation. Even with All out Attack, the Bulls still feel lacking for their cost. I played against BW Bonesplitters, OBR and SBGL.

Edited by Ekrund Oath Splitters
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On 6/19/2021 at 10:34 PM, Maddpainting said:

We are a weaker book for sure, but that doesn't mean we can not win, the problem is now that 3.0 is coming out and the game is so hugely change it is very hard to say if we are weaker by a lot or by a little as many armies (other than a few) has lost a lot of their damage. 

I would at least wait till we get the 3.0 FAQs for each army and play some games to understand 3.0 enough to know what is strong and what is not. Yes Wizards and Shooting is still really strong, but we do have tools at least.

Hedonites must read this post in regards of what is truly a weak faction

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19 hours ago, peasant said:

Hedonites must read this post in regards of what is truly a weak faction

Too right! I know they're upset that their book is undeniably weaker but it's like listening to a rich guy complaining to a poor orphan that their fridge no longer dispenses fine liquor.

"Just ice cubes and water now, can you believe it, chap?"

"I'm so thirsty, sir. Could I have but a single ice cube?"

"No. But chin up! Those little goatmen you have can reroll charges from ambush, ole boy! Pip, pip, cheerio"

'rich people noises'

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1 hour ago, Kamose said:

Too right! I know they're upset that their book is undeniably weaker but it's like listening to a rich guy complaining to a poor orphan that their fridge no longer dispenses fine liquor.

"Just ice cubes and water now, can you believe it, chap?"

"I'm so thirsty, sir. Could I have but a single ice cube?"

"No. But chin up! Those little goatmen you have can reroll charges from ambush, ole boy! Pip, pip, cheerio"

'rich people noises'

Let's be fair, they're not used to this treatment and they just got nailed by two huge nerfs in a row, whereas if we got two huge nerfs in a row we'd just say "oh, it most be Tuesday" and continue on making goat noises. 

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To be even fairer Slaangor might literally be the worst unit in the game and they got a point increase so I can understand their anger. I offered a HoS friend to try playing with the 2.0 points against my 3.0 beasts. If he takes it up I'll let you know.

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45 minutes ago, The Red King said:

To be even fairer Slaangor might literally be the worst unit in the game and they got a point increase so I can understand their anger. I offered a HoS friend to try playing with the 2.0 points against my 3.0 beasts. If he takes it up I'll let you know.

The sad thing is that the Slaangor is such a beautiful model, I'd buy and run them if they were even remotely playable or at the very least had our brayherd/warherd keywords.

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I'm lucky they didn't appeal to me for some reason (the UH one did but the unit doesnt)

 

Now if they release khorne minotaur from Total war and they're also drek then I'm going to GW headquarters to ask them why they hate beasts.

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21 hours ago, peasant said:

Hedonites must read this post in regards of what is truly a weak faction

I know 3 players and I am actually painting a Slaanesh army for one of them now. I honestly think they are fine b.c they still have some heroes and tools that are out of this world compare to us. You just don't play like you used to with them anymore. If I could take Sigvald I would every game, dude is a monster.

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So... I actually had a game after a year or so since I stopped using them and moved to playing Skaven and Throggots. I played a friend withs Slaanesh... My list was:

WARLORD:    385
Shaggoth    185 (Amulet of Destiny; Lightning-fast Monstruosity; Sundering Blades )
Shaman        100 (Titanic Fury)
Shaman        100 (Tendrils of Anthropy)

REGIMENT:    720
Shaman        100 (Knowign Eye; Vicious Stranglethorns)
10 ungors     70
10 ungors     70
10 gors         75
Bestigor    135
Bestigor    135
Bestigor    135

Alpha beast Pack: 440
chimera        220
chimera        220
Alpha beast Pack: 340
Ghorgon        170
Ghorgon        170

He used:

Godseekers

-Herald on Big chariot  (amulet of destiny and flaming sword spell)

-Herald on small chariot 

-Syll Esske 

Chariot 
Chariot
Hellstrider w/ Scourges

Slickblade Seeker 
Blissbarb Seekerx2 
Dread Pageant 

I will not annoy you with the full BR, but this was the first time in a long while that I actually felt I had some thing I could do, rather than count the dead and manage the surviving bodies in order to take objectives...

Considerations:

Slaanesh is really really week, maybe not weeker than BoC but I had the feeling we are in the same tier kind of.

Shaggoths are actully good now. With heroic actions (healing mostly), spells (healing mostly :D )and monstuos actions they kind last long and for 185pts they are kind of cheap.

Monsters can do a lot of stuff (units are smaller, they are hard to pin now and can get something with their monstruos actions) and Chimeras for 220 are not bad at all, maybe using 2 is too much commitment but I like agressive armies so I'll keep trying them. 

Bestigors are... situational at best. In my game they did as well as 10 ungors, but I feel that against a more infantry oriented army they could be useful, but 135pts for a chaff unit in ana army where you get those for 70/75 is kind of wasted.

Hope these are useful...

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9 hours ago, tupavko said:

So... I actually had a game after a year or so since I stopped using them and moved to playing Skaven and Throggots. I played a friend withs Slaanesh... My list was:

WARLORD:    385
Shaggoth    185 (Amulet of Destiny; Lightning-fast Monstruosity; Sundering Blades )
Shaman        100 (Titanic Fury)
Shaman        100 (Tendrils of Anthropy)

REGIMENT:    720
Shaman        100 (Knowign Eye; Vicious Stranglethorns)
 

 

Maybe this is a better 3.0 question, but how are you getting so many spells and so much equipment?  I had thought we only get one spell now (not one per wizard) so to get a second spell we'd need to use the enhancement for it?

So basically there would be on Command Trait, Artifact, and Spell - and then you can get either an additional artifact or spell with the warlord battalion?

 

 

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10 hours ago, tupavko said:

So... I actually had a game after a year or so since I stopped using them and moved to playing Skaven and Throggots. I played a friend withs Slaanesh... My list was:

WARLORD:    385
Shaggoth    185 (Amulet of Destiny; Lightning-fast Monstruosity; Sundering Blades )
Shaman        100 (Titanic Fury)
Shaman        100 (Tendrils of Anthropy)

REGIMENT:    720
Shaman        100 (Knowign Eye; Vicious Stranglethorns)
10 ungors     70
10 ungors     70
10 gors         75
Bestigor    135
Bestigor    135
Bestigor    135

Alpha beast Pack: 440
chimera        220
chimera        220
Alpha beast Pack: 340
Ghorgon        170
Ghorgon        170

He used:

Godseekers

-Herald on Big chariot  (amulet of destiny and flaming sword spell)

-Herald on small chariot 

-Syll Esske 

Chariot 
Chariot
Hellstrider w/ Scourges

Slickblade Seeker 
Blissbarb Seekerx2 
Dread Pageant 

I will not annoy you with the full BR, but this was the first time in a long while that I actually felt I had some thing I could do, rather than count the dead and manage the surviving bodies in order to take objectives...

Considerations:

Slaanesh is really really week, maybe not weeker than BoC but I had the feeling we are in the same tier kind of.

Shaggoths are actully good now. With heroic actions (healing mostly), spells (healing mostly :D )and monstuos actions they kind last long and for 185pts they are kind of cheap.

Monsters can do a lot of stuff (units are smaller, they are hard to pin now and can get something with their monstruos actions) and Chimeras for 220 are not bad at all, maybe using 2 is too much commitment but I like agressive armies so I'll keep trying them. 

Bestigors are... situational at best. In my game they did as well as 10 ungors, but I feel that against a more infantry oriented army they could be useful, but 135pts for a chaff unit in ana army where you get those for 70/75 is kind of wasted.

Hope these are useful...

Remember our new rules let shaggoth heal as well. I don't think we're in as bad a spot as people say we are to be honest. Slaanesh is definitely worse than we are in the moment.

 

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57 minutes ago, Derptau said:

Remember our new rules let shaggoth heal as well. I don't think we're in as bad a spot as people say we are to be honest. Slaanesh is definitely worse than we are in the moment.

 

Our low leadership makes the heal unreliable at best, though it's still better than the super situational one on the Shaggoth warscroll. 

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3 minutes ago, Vaporlocke said:

Our low leadership makes the heal unreliable at best, though it's still better than the super situational one on the Shaggoth warscroll. 

Yeah but his spell and the 2+ heal plus the unreliable heal plus the leadership one represents multiple different ways to heal him so if one or two fail hes still likely to get some amount of wounds back every turn.

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4 minutes ago, Vaporlocke said:

Our low leadership makes the heal unreliable at best, though it's still better than the super situational one on the Shaggoth warscroll. 

The new rules for the allegiance gives him a heal 1 wound on 2+ per turn, coupled with spells and any other fun you want to introduce. I don't know if I would want to waste cp on our healing when we can finally get reliable damage.

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6 hours ago, Derptau said:

Remember our new rules let shaggoth heal as well. I don't think we're in as bad a spot as people say we are to be honest. Slaanesh is definitely worse than we are in the moment.

 

Yeah yeah! You basically get  3 different heals:

- heroic action (leadership test make it unreliable but it's still something)

- Dragon Ogor new ability (2+)

- spell on his warscroll

So a potential nice total of 2d3+1

5 hours ago, Derptau said:

The new rules for the allegiance gives him a heal 1 wound on 2+ per turn, coupled with spells and any other fun you want to introduce. I don't know if I would want to waste cp on our healing when we can finally get reliable damage.

He does not need any CP to trigger any of his healings. 

As for reliable damage, mmmmh he can be more punchy than before, but I wouldn't call him a damage dealer 3A with -1 rend and D3 do not really tell melee monster. Even with Gnarlblade from Gawespawn so D5, it's stil 3A, and then you need Sundering Blades to push that rend to -2... You could even take the Flamming Sword spell and push that D to 6 But still on 3A, that's a huge commitement to get a mediocre fighter to be deadly... Ifound him to be good mainly because he can survive a battle, deal with chaff and smaller units, kill minor things, but I would never considering him as a hammer or a damage dealer. That is why I played 2 Chimeras and 2 Ghorgons. As sad as it might sound we have no damage dealing heroes, our best hero for that was a suicide Beastlord with Gnarlblade before the nerf in BR: Kragnos. 

I still hope one day we will get a true scale Shaggoth and a Doombull that feels as a Doombull (back in WHFB we were week but Doombulls were melee beasts, I miss that a lot). I've been playing a mono-troll army the past year for fun, and although not the most competitive still the rockguts can punch hard, really hard they are soooooooo much better the our Bullgors and even more survivable. Want my mad cows back.

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Plus the very unreliable "heal d3 if you tie the roll for priority" thing but yes basically 2d3+1. I agree hes more of a "can kill support heroes or non-combat squads with little fear" than an actual combat beast? but really I'll be bringing him almost solely to have someone who doesnt mind going upfield and controlling a wildfire Taurus. His own stats are almost secondary to the MW's and "must fight last" effect of the spell.

 

I don't think the gnarlblade beastlord is entirely dead even if he did lose out on the rerolls. He COULD kill a mega-gargant in one turn if every one of the hit rolls was a 6 and they all wounded and the gargant failed all his saves which is of course statistically never going to happen but a potential 36 damage to heroes from a 95 point model is fun if not competitive.

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On 6/18/2021 at 12:20 AM, Chaos Shepard said:

I could see marks, but I could also see us getting sub factions related to each chaos god.

I'm hoping there will be a FAQ "fix" which GW has actually done before (6th ed, end of 8th ed).  But getting a faction would be very nice.  Especially if they did it less ham-fisted than this past approach.

On 6/19/2021 at 8:58 AM, Maddpainting said:

Raiders are amazing, you don't take them in large units, just 10 mans to screen with pre-games, help some missions, etc.. I have been playing raiders sense day 1 and i'm not stopping now, their usefulness is way to good.

Cockatrices were good before and now there is more reasons to take them, 

The guy who ran the 16 cockatrice army posted the list in AoS 3 points.  Also nice to hear you still value Raiders with the points bump.

On 6/19/2021 at 1:05 PM, Skarband said:

Hi how about gorebulls? I never Play BoC but i whant to start new army BoC are the same tier like khorne? Can we fight with top tier armies? DoK? LrL? Seraphon?

I love gorebulls but they are indeed just okay.  

On 6/21/2021 at 10:32 AM, peasant said:

Hedonites must read this post in regards of what is truly a weak faction

Being a HoS player also that thread is misery expounded when the book was released.  people came out of the woodwork to just complain.  The book sadly was pointed for allowing Wrath of Everchosen, etc.  Not strictly internally as the playtesters at the time knew chaos was "soup" of the like.  People claiming the book was supposed to be "AoS 3 pointed" appear to not understand how time works.  "oh this came out  6months before AoS 3 and was likely supposed to be a whole year before AoS 3,.. that means it must have been meant for after AoS 3" ...

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