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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

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I see it this way: it all depends from the warscrolls.

If the warscrolls stay as they are, we definitely need a wide range of massive army wide boosts, and +1d3'' movement after ambushing in a single subfaction is definetely not game braking rule, in a universe where armies can pile in twice (whit multiple units like FeC), fight in the hero phase, shoot you off the board, suffer 3W max per turn or activate whenever they want, or even charge you on turn 1 with 30''+ charge. (several armies do not need ambushing since they just get to charge you on turn one DoK, FeC or IJ for example)

Let's say we apply the +1D3'' movement after ambush: what are we ambushing? 6 Bullgors with big axes? If those guys even charge in 50% of the cases they will bounce off the unit they charged unless it's some sort of chaff, or they get a support from a hero and some other unit. I'm playing Troggoths at the moment and let's say those 6 bulls charge 6 trolls... On avarage they will be inflicting around 9,7 wounds, in exhange the 4 remaining trolls will inflict 11 wounds to the bullgors... And trolls are not even the worst thing out there.

We can say we wouldn't want to charge a rock hard unit, but in that case the whole theory falls apart because if ambush is good only for clearing chafg with some fancy charges it's still not a massive ugrade for the army. In the actual game +1d3'' is just a placibo, but still it is a good start and perfectly suited for the army (and fluff).

Now if let's say Bullgors (or Dragon Ogors) should get a better warscroll maybe a 3+ to hit, and 1/2A more then a +1D3'' would be a very powerful tool, but still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less influencing the game than Be'lakor, Morathi, the eels, the naked dwarfs, Seraphon or Lumineth magic phase, the reliability f the Mortek Guard and so on... In this game an army that has to fight in melee to win (even a bit) is always the underdog, because by going into HtH you risk getting hit back, while shooting, magic or passive abilities (such as Might makes Right or Mightier makes Rightier) are far superior.

Now if you ask me what would I love to see than I would say: leave the overall feeling of the army the same, a horde of super fast disposable bodies, with some really killy units and monsters. That means giving us a more complete set of army rules (just like Gloomspite Gitz we suffer the issue of multiple non interracting keywords, this is one of the reasons why we work better in Chaos God armies rather then on our own), some good subfactions and especially good warscrolls since at the moment we get 4 good warscrolls: ungors, ungor riders, bestigors and the shaman, the rest is pure or half trash with some really honorable mentions such as: Cygor (this dude makes no sense at all), Bullgors of all sorts Hero included (the absolutely worst  warscroll out of all monstrous infantries, even a humble ogor is better) and Dragon Ogors (again another warscroll that makes no sense in terms of stats, 2 Bestigors get to hit better and harder than a single half dragon half ogor... )

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Relics, triumphs, hero abilities, etc.. if you add that to Ambush you can't add other options that might take away from other units. Its just a balancing thing and depending on how you want the army will depend how you want to buff certain spots.

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9 hours ago, tupavko said:

Let's say we apply the +1D3'' movement after ambush: what are we ambushing? 6 Bullgors with big axes? If those guys even charge in 50% of the cases they will bounce off the unit they charged unless it's some sort of chaff, or they get a support from a hero and some other unit. I'm playing Troggoths at the moment and let's say those 6 bulls charge 6 trolls... On avarage they will be inflicting around 9,7 wounds, in exhange the 4 remaining trolls will inflict 11 wounds to the bullgors... And trolls are not even the worst thing out there.

what do you think of my propsed changes then? at least as a temporary holdover

not changing warscrolls, but giving all warherd the ability to re-roll failed wounds after getting a kill makes them really scary, especially with their 6's to wound rules, but ONLY if they get that kill. they become the unit you DONT want to feed chaff to, as that makes them really killy for the rest of the game

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Some fair points raised regarding the Ambush. In that regard I still think it needs to be updated, though maybe not in the way I thought (can of worms and all of that).

The minimum its should do I think is:

Ambush up till Turn4, ALL BoC units in the army can ambush, Units get +1 to hit for their attacks when coming out of Ambush by default (no artifact needed and no limited aura radius around hero carrying it either).  DarkWalker units get re-roll to charges when ambushing.

Still very tame version of the Ambush rule, just tweaked to be on par with other armies that can do this, and giving us that little something something for the artifact being part of the rule. Dark Walkers would still have their specific benefit for ambush, while no longer being the limiting factor for Warherd and DO ambushers, other Frays would still be able to get much better mileage out of the rule than they currently can.

Its nowhere near some of the nonsense other armies can do since we are still limited by border edges rather than dropping out of anywhere and everywhere. But in this way it would at least be somewhat presentable as the main army rule that is actually worth something.

It would certainly go a long way, being able to ambush other stuff like Cockatrice, Chimeras, DO and such without crippling yourself with pretty bad Fray that forces on you a horrible garbage artifact, and really bad traits.

This, with general uplifting of the warscrol profiles, writing in some logical well flowing synergies, fixing some units that could really use it and possible adding few more new ones with a new Models being dual kit boxes (seeing as Slaanesh is getting archers, my dream of split Centigor units, one combat and one ranged might not be just an impossible dream anymore), updated battalions and yeah I think we could be pretty solid so that people can actually play the darn army, not the game for once (since at that point you are playing BoC because you want to play BoC, not playing the game and just "accidentaly" using BoC which can be replaced with any other army in that case).

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I'd rather the 3 Subfactions (Bray, War, Thunder/Monster)  army wide rules get a boost first and then see if Ambush needs to be changed. Brayherd doesn't even have any traits other than Ambush which should be an army wide rule to begin with. 

If Brayherd Ambush would get better then make it better only for Brayherd and let the rest of the army have the we have now. But as is every other army has traits on top of traits for everything and we do not.

 

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I think there would be two possible options here. For both, Ambush becomes until turn 4 like the rest of those abilities, and some warscrolls like Hounds and Gors get updated. In addition:

1) Ambush becomes army wide , Brayherd gets some additional benefit (possibly related to ambushing so they are best at it). Darkwalkers gets a completely new benefit, possibly a huge buff when ambushing. 

2) A new army-wide rule like Primal Fury. The 3 Herd rules get buffs. Darkwalkers gets a small benefit to replace the turn 2 ambushing.

 

Personally I prefer two, as ambush feels like a brayherd thing to me, and a new army wide combat rule would do a lot to help without having to touch a bunch of warscrolls, but I can definitely see the argument for the army-wide ambush.

 

I can't see buffing the herd rules, adding a rule like Primal Fury, AND having herd-agnostic ambushing without major point changes to go with it. Some edge case like the Ghorgon is going to end up breaking from that. 

Edited by cyberhawk94

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Ambushing T1 is the "not strong" part of it, you can give us Primal Fury or other buffs and leave Ambushing T1 still with Relics, traits, etc.. for turn 1 and turn 2.

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Soo, Lumineth new release incoming. They got.... Cangoroo ? Giant jumping rabbit-zebra thingy? Some sort of "definitely not horse" mounted units :D
And vampires are confirmed for release, plus the ugly vamp hero model reveal.... yaiii.... bleh >__>

With that, my hope to see new Centigors eventually is still alive and kicking.

Edited by Myrdin
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12 hours ago, Myrdin said:

With that, my hope to see new Centigors eventually is still alive and kicking.

Oh boy yeah.  I want those monstrous Cav Centigors Hastings69 saw in CAD come to life.  We are seeing a return of cavalry as of late.  Slaanesh getting some.  I mean,.. explore all the avenues.  GW has set AoS up to have nothing but growth.  

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13 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Oh boy yeah.  I want those monstrous Cav Centigors Hastings69 saw in CAD come to life.  We are seeing a return of cavalry as of late.  Slaanesh getting some.  I mean,.. explore all the avenues.  GW has set AoS up to have nothing but growth.  

This but also the fact that it seems they are finally introducing more ranged units into Chaos. I personally hope for Centigor dual kit where one unit is either with throwing weaopns (axes/ javelins) or with bows, while the other is the spear and shield / possibly great weapon melee oriented one.

Although all thing considered I could see Centigors have the old Black Orcs rule where they could have all types of weapons, since they have a body able to carry all of that, and you could select what gear you want each turn. That would be ballsy as all hell and cool at the same time.

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5 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Although all thing considered I could see Centigors have the old Black Orcs rule where they could have all types of weapons, since they have a body able to carry all of that, and you could select what gear you want each turn. That would be ballsy as all hell and cool at the same time.

That's tricky as now the BLORC rule is just mix and match as you see fit.  I don't know if that's done also.  in 40k it isn't uncommon to see a mix of weapon types within a unit.  

This however presents an issue as GW is generally moving towards WYSIWYG for rules as per what's on the model.  But any Centigor love is good love.  Just has Ghorros :P

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I really want to see GW give some love to the centigors, with new models, cool rules and a new centigor Lord hero... I wouldn't mind if they made an AoS native Ghorros, a massive centigor father of a thousand sons, that would really be cool (that and a God level lord, hopefully an Ancient Shaggoth since we are talking about 4 legged dudes).

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Hi guys,

My friend very kindly gave me his collection of Beasts of Chaos. I have:

Herdstone

Taurus Endless spell

Direhorn Endless spell

Raven something flock endless spell

Beastlord

2 Great bray shaman

20 Bestigors

Box of Gors

10 Ungors with spears

10 Ungor Raiders

6 chaos warhound (dogs) I think there is six what ever is the legal size unit

I was thinking of assembling Gors with shields is that better option then dual weapons? I recon they do not deal damage anyway and shield might give them more survability.

I was thinking for start to try pure Allherd? Is that viable for non competitive casual games or do I have to mix Warherd units as well?

What would you guys recommend me to get?

What do you guys think of Brass Despoilers or Desolating Beastherd battalions? I am looking at them as we mostly play 1000 points game due to the size of the diner table at my friends place. They look like decent battalions that may give me one drop allowing me to dictate who goes first. Also Brass Despoilers would potentially allow me to play goats together with my Khorne guys.

Any advice is very appreciated.

Thanks in advance/

Edited by frenk_castle
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1 minute ago, frenk_castle said:

Hi guys,

My friend very kindly gave me his collection of Beasts of Chaos. I have:

Herdstone

Taurus Endless spell

Firehorn Endless spell

Raven something flock endless spell

Beastlord

2 Great bray shaman

20 Bestigors

Box of Gors

10 Ungors with spears

10 Ungor Raiders

6 chaos warhound (dogs) I think there is six what ever is the legal size unit

I was thinking of assembling Gors with shields is that better option then dual weapons? I recon they do not deal damage anyway and shield might give them more survability.

I was thinking for start to try pure Allherd? Is that viable for non competitive casual games or do I have to mix Warherd units as well?

What would you guys recommend me to get?

What do you guys think of Brass Despoilers or Desolating Beastherd battalions? I am looking at them as we mostly play 1000 points game due to the size of the diner table at my friends place. They look like decent battalions that may give me one drop allowing me to dictate who goes first. Also Brass Despoilers would potentially allow me to play goats together with my Khorne guys.

Any advice is very appreciated.

Thanks in advance/

Yeah, Gors aren't great but they're fairly sturdy with shields.

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50 minutes ago, frenk_castle said:

Any advice is very appreciated.

Well, bestigor are your hammers, gors and ungors are your shields (chaff). At 1,000pts a gavespawn beastlord is terrifying. Otherwise, I'd say your army lacks punch to go against tougher foes and doesn't have the bodies to objective swarm. I've been told that all herd is powerful at 1,000pts because of the summoning potential. I personally have never used them so I can't really comment. The taurus is pretty good spell, it lets you control the flow of battle. It can hit you too though.

The marauding brayherd and desolating brayherd are both excellent battalions. I often used my beasts of chaos in my Khorne army. If you wish more on the specifics on that, I'd say click on my profile and go to my Blades of Khorne posts. (searching through the pages there would be more challenging) The only problem with the khorne battalion is that it doesn't let you take a bray shaman in it. If you plan on using lots of the normal gor unit types, you'll probably want at least one of those.

With the current warscroll the shields are better on gors. They're not going to wipe out anything and they lack the bravery/wounds for grinding. The 4+ in combat is their best feature. Warherd would help add to your punching power. Centigors are good, there's plenty of posts that talk about this army's strengths. (including from myself)

Good luck and welcome to the herd!

For Morghur!!

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On 1/20/2021 at 12:24 PM, frenk_castle said:

Any advice is very appreciated.
 

You almost have enough for 1000 points?  I think you could do 750 points.  But,.. See about someone playing Paths to Glory locally to get your army built and painted.

Gors w/ Shields.  Generally speaking 10,20,30 Bestigors are always good.  You will often see maybe 40 in some variation.  They are rock solid.  

YOu don't see gors much but you have them and they can try to hold an objective.  YOu'll see LOTS of ungors.  I have nearly 120 painted.  yOu don't need that many but getting another couple boxes is a good start.  and with spears is fine.  

Try Uh,.. the mutation fray.  with the  mutating gnarleblade on your beastlord.  He can do some legit work.  At this point a battalion is a hefty price.  

The army wins by dying slowly, or well more bodies on the fire.  holding people up and hitting them with Bestigors is the game plan.  

If you have time there are loads of great bits of information in this thread.  Just read backwards when bored and feel the need to be on the internet (like if you wanted to avoid FB or twitter for instance :P ).  I often re-read and find some posters better than others.  Right now it's the die hards posting here.  The WAAC players came and went long ago and only children of the true beast linger.

Also,.. post your bat reps with a synopsis and ask for help.  Ask for advice.  Don't worry if you lose lots.  The army requires a good expenditure and lots of practice and understanding of the game rules and scenarios.  but you can win with it.  Just hard.

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This was a good watch

 

Joel really hammers into playing a game of poker.  Know your opponent, and play the game not your hand.  

I wonder if I can scrounge up an old metal monster to convert into a second Chimera.

 

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Worth noting that the mierce chimera is immense, filling out every part of a 120mm round base, so it definitely will not fit on a 120mm oval.

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Hi!

Mantic has a nice Chimera:

https://www.manticgames.com/games/uncategorised/northern-alliance-lord-on-chimera/

   The have improved a lot in terms of model quality. The  Rules always have been on a great level, but that is a different story. I just wanted to show the chimera :)

And speaking of which (the Chimera) My colleague was cleaning his closet and found one. He was playing WoCh so 2 or 4 Chimeras was standard for them... Non the less the Chimera will be mine if we meet next time, thus I would like to ask You about your experience with this monster... Is it worth it? That is a hefty price for a T-shirt save. How will the chimera do vs FEC or Naked dwarfs (I'm guessing that vs KO that is a one turn of shooting.)

  

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If you get it to charge or pile into a combat where it can go first before beaing reduced on the wound table, it will shred a lot of things. Its worth bringing a shaman with the +1A to all weapon profiles on monsters spell (Savage Dominion was it ? Cant remember) to turn it up by 120%.

But thats a one huge IF, and most often then not you are safer bringing the usual stuff instead of the chimera. But again, IF you can get the right time and place for it to get in it will lay out a lot of pain.

Just be careful off the typical BoC bane > Anything that reduces hit chance. Just like the rest of our army, it will hurt a lot if it gets affected with this.

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I don't mind GW's Chimera. I actually don;t like mantic's version, just feels old school, 80's style.

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6 hours ago, Myrdin said:

If you get it to charge or pile into a combat where it can go first before beaing reduced on the wound table, it will shred a lot of things. Its worth bringing a shaman with the +1A to all weapon profiles on monsters spell (Savage Dominion was it ? Cant remember) to turn it up by 120%.

But thats a one huge IF, and most often then not you are safer bringing the usual stuff instead of the chimera. But again, IF you can get the right time and place for it to get in it will lay out a lot of pain.

Just be careful off the typical BoC bane > Anything that reduces hit chance. Just like the rest of our army, it will hurt a lot if it gets affected with this.

You could even push it further making it a real killer with the Gavespawn Command Ability and Grashrak`s spell.

What I find pretty useful is their mobile Mortal Wounds. Can be really important to snipe that hero that needs to die, for example against Fyreslayers - or you just take 19 Cockatrice ;)

However, they cannot be implemented in any bataillon, which increases your drops. Determining who takes the first turn is really important for Beasts of Chaos. I hope, on the next update, we get a bataillon that includes Monsters apart from Cygor and Ghorgor. That`s the only real reason I do not take Chimeras.

 

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