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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

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My roommate had a neat idea for gors. Make them better on objectives.

Not sure what form it takes, maybe bonuses to hit/wound/save while controlling an objective but its a good idea.

It helps with roles in the army and matches the narrative well.

Ungors as human shields and mass weak attacks, gors for holding objectives, bestigors for smashing and taking objectives.

 

It also gives a good reason to take them in hordes even though they're 32mm bases with 1" reach

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So in one of the manga I am reading, there was a Greater Demon in the form of a Beastman:

)Capture.JPG.2810d7e2953a8582247dba18dff80a53.JPG

Has just the right amount of savegery, but at the same time those two long blades give it much more "high class" look. Like a deadly blade master.

I REALLY dig the design of this monster, though the horns could be bigger or multiple of the long mane like hair reminds me of how I modeled my own Beastlord. Since I think its pretty cool picture I just wanted to share it with you guys. A Beastmen DP or a greater Demon just about tingles my fancy.

Edited by Myrdin
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On 11/5/2020 at 2:34 PM, Ganigumo said:

My roommate had a neat idea for gors. Make them better on objectives.

Not sure what form it takes, maybe bonuses to hit/wound/save while controlling an objective but its a good idea.

It helps with roles in the army and matches the narrative well.

Ungors as human shields and mass weak attacks, gors for holding objectives, bestigors for smashing and taking objectives.

 

It also gives a good reason to take them in hordes even though they're 32mm bases with 1" reach

The issue is Ungors are on 25 mm and cheaper so you can get more on the objective.  

I don't disagree with them having 1" reach.  I would argue the shift to 32 mm bases wasn't the greatest of ideas.  

I sometimes wonder about the idea of a merger of the old Herd from 6th ed as an additional option where you can take some Gors and Ungors as one unit.  The Gors were up front fighting and the Ungors were in the back poking spears through so could get a few ranks fighting.  I think it was min 5 each but the box had them both and for sure they won't do that as warscrolls mimic the box sold.  

An interesting thought if AoS follows 40k with going multi-wound is if Ungors were 20-40, and Gors were 10-20 but 2W on the latter (and obviously better fighters).  

The sad reaction is Gors and a few other warscrolls, (the Doombull cmd ability) went from good to worse.  If Gors had stackable attacks and this was boosted by nearby heroes it would help.  Getting Gors up to like 3-4 ish attacks each would be neat to see.  

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2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

The issue is Ungors are on 25 mm and cheaper so you can get more on the objective.  

I don't disagree with them having 1" reach.  I would argue the shift to 32 mm bases wasn't the greatest of ideas.  

I sometimes wonder about the idea of a merger of the old Herd from 6th ed as an additional option where you can take some Gors and Ungors as one unit.  The Gors were up front fighting and the Ungors were in the back poking spears through so could get a few ranks fighting.  I think it was min 5 each but the box had them both and for sure they won't do that as warscrolls mimic the box sold.  

An interesting thought if AoS follows 40k with going multi-wound is if Ungors were 20-40, and Gors were 10-20 but 2W on the latter (and obviously better fighters).  

The sad reaction is Gors and a few other warscrolls, (the Doombull cmd ability) went from good to worse.  If Gors had stackable attacks and this was boosted by nearby heroes it would help.  Getting Gors up to like 3-4 ish attacks each would be neat to see.  

What I mean by better on objectives is to give them a rule that makes them stronger defending objectives, something like "While this unit is within 6" of an objective you control add 1 to its attack characteristic and reroll wound rolls of 1. While this unit is within 6" of a contested objective add 2 to it's attack characteristic and reroll all wound rolls."

This would make hordes of Gors good if they're defending an objective, since they get a pretty sizable buff (would be +2 attacks if they were controlling an objective, and 20+ strong), especially for their points, and would take advantage of their larger footprint to zone things off the objective. The contested part is just nice flavor (with the Gors going into a frenzy) if it looks like they're about to lose the objective. 

Gor's biggest issue from a balance perspective is that their "role" is Infantry horde thats stronger than Ungor but weaker than bestigor, and with only a 60 point range to fit them into its hard to put them in a good spot that won't invalidate one or the other. Situational strength is a good solution to this problem, since you can make them punch closer to bestigors (or even beyond) but only in certain situations that don't overlap with what bestigors are used for, this is why "Stronger when controlling an objective" is actually a pretty good role for them.

Gor's and Bestigors could go 2W, but I don't see it. Tzaangor were already 2W when the BoC book was released but they didn't take the opportunity then.

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6 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

They just need 3+ to wound and always +1 attacks, not 20+ gets +1taks.

This. Have been advocating for them being just naked Bestigors, with easier access to their passive buff from the start.

I would say for their Passive buff something like: "If 10 or more +1A, if 20 or more +1 To Hit in addition to that". Simple effective and makes them worth running both as MSU and as blobs, since with bigger numbers they are subject to more enemy debuffs many of which in the game target Hit rate of units so this would compensate for that nicely.

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6 hours ago, Myrdin said:

This. Have been advocating for them being just naked Bestigors, with easier access to their passive buff from the start.

I would say for their Passive buff something like: "If 10 or more +1A, if 20 or more +1 To Hit in addition to that". Simple effective and makes them worth running both as MSU and as blobs, since with bigger numbers they are subject to more enemy debuffs many of which in the game target Hit rate of units so this would compensate for that nicely.

From a design perspective its better if each one of these units serves a distinct purpose, so we don't run into this situation again. At the moment nobody takes Gors because they compete directly with ungors, and are generally worse for the points. By making them naked bestigors you would just be changing it so that they compete directly with bestigors and, unless the balance is perfect, we end up in the same situation but between gors and bestigors instead of gors and ungors.

If buffed Gors can do what bestigors do, and operate as a proper hammer, for cheaper, why would you take bestigors? If the buffed Gors can't operate as a proper hammer what role do they serve ?

The Gor issue isn't resolved through simple buffs, there just isn't enough space between 60 point ungor and 120 point Bestigor for a "middle man" unit to have a purpose. If you want them to exist as an "in-between" unit Bestigor need to go up in points significantly (with appropriate buffs of course) to justify their existence.

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You are completely disregarding everything that Bestigors do, what their role is, as well as their stat line in your comment.
Gors get buffed, go pack to 80 pts. Now they wound on 3+ and can get extra attack and hit with numbers.

Bestigors are still better even if Gors are buffed, because they have superior stat line from the get go regardless of numbers, have a charge bonus, have rend and higher save.  However the most distinct difference is that unlike Gors, for Bestigors the most efficient way of running them these days is MSU.

With gors you want the bodies to create a padding that can soak hits. Complete opposite of what you want to do with Gors. The problem is that Gors do not grind. Like not even a little bit. Even tanky units need to be able to kill at least something in their weight category. Gors dont do that.

The Gor issue IS resolved with simple buffs. You dont need to rewrite the entire warscrol into something completely different. Gors always worked they way they were designed ever since warhammer fantasy days. The problem with the current Gors is they lost extra attacks from paired weapons, their passive is a bad joke that scale to late for it to count (to late as in with too many numbers, where even one loss makes it no longer function).

What GW did with dropping their price to 70 was only a hot fix not actual consideration what is wrong with the unit. Its the same with Gorebulls. They need a buff to be the beefy hammer they were always intended to be, not be a cheap pseudo elite wannabe unit.

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7 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

You are completely disregarding everything that Bestigors do, what their role is, as well as their stat line in your comment.
Gors get buffed, go pack to 80 pts. Now they wound on 3+ and can get extra attack and hit with numbers.

Bestigors are still better even if Gors are buffed, because they have superior stat line from the get go regardless of numbers, have a charge bonus, have rend and higher save.  However the most distinct difference is that unlike Gors, for Bestigors the most efficient way of running them these days is MSU.

With gors you want the bodies to create a padding that can soak hits. Complete opposite of what you want to do with Gors. The problem is that Gors do not grind. Like not even a little bit. Even tanky units need to be able to kill at least something in their weight category. Gors dont do that.

The Gor issue IS resolved with simple buffs. You dont need to rewrite the entire warscrol into something completely different. Gors always worked they way they were designed ever since warhammer fantasy days. The problem with the current Gors is they lost extra attacks from paired weapons, their passive is a bad joke that scale to late for it to count (to late as in with too many numbers, where even one loss makes it no longer function).

What GW did with dropping their price to 70 was only a hot fix not actual consideration what is wrong with the unit. Its the same with Gorebulls. They need a buff to be the beefy hammer they were always intended to be, not be a cheap pseudo elite wannabe unit.

against a 4+:

30+ ungors with spears will put out 2-5 damage on average. 
20+ Gors do 1-4 damage 

20+ of Gors with +1 to hit and wound do 3-6 damage

10 Bestigors without their +1 or charge bonus do 3-6 damage

10 Bestigors with +1 to hit do 4-8 damage

10 bestigors with their charge bonus and +1 will do 6-11 damage.

Obviously Gors should hit harder than they do now, its a joke, but they're limited heavily by the space they're trying to occupy, even in the scenario where they get +1 to hit/wound the extra damage they have over ungors is pretty negligible, push it any higher and they're outdoing non charging bestigors.
This is why I think Gors need situational strength, in order to be a unit we want to take they need to be able to outdamage bestigors sometimes and by building those buffs into the warscrolls it telegraphs those situations to players, but having them outdamage bestigors unless bestigors have all their bonuses active doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

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With the beastlord, the shaman and even a chaos spawn the Gors can situationally get there. The BoC book is full of situational buffs. The problem is the 1 attack. If they're starting at 2 and getting more for having 20 models I think they can justify their points. 

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Basically, even if we disagree on the role I think we all can agree on the fact that Gors need help.

I mean I personally would absolutely love for Gors to get 9/12" throwing weapons,  they could chug at the opponent, and a Rule that would allow them to do so when Charging or being Charged. Add to that one extra attack in combat (let say they stay at 4+ Wounds as they are) and you have a fun to use unit that can fill in several roles.

Then again, I am also someone who thinks Centigors should have access to the same bows as Ungors do, but with a point of rend to its name. Because, centaurs with bows are cool thats why :D (or two split profiles with different points cost. Something like  Centigor Marauders, and Centigor Hunters. One more combat oriented, the other ranged skirmish cavalry)

Be it as it may, there are few units that struggle with their identity in our Book. Gors are one of them. Whatever it might be, I hope the update of this book in a far distant future will be a good one, and these boy will find their place back on the battlefield once more... heck I have 60 of them just sitting there collecting dust... discounting those few I bring for games of Warcry, so yeah I would absolutely love to field them. As I would like to do with other units in similar positions.

Edited by Myrdin

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On the topic of Gors what if they were particularly good at TAKING objectives. Give them an ability called "goring rush" (heh) where each gor counts as 2 for the purposes of objective control but only on a turn they charged. They'd lower their heads and push back the enemy that was trying to hole up on an objective. 

 

Ungor would still HOLD better with their numbers. Bestigor would be a hammer with no special bonus to taking objectives and Gors would be great for TAKING objectives. Represent their desire to tear down civilization with a disdain for enemy units "bunkering up".

I don't think that would solve all their problems as they still need some buff but it would at least give them a distinct niche.

 

EDIT: oh right I forgot why I came here in the first place lol. Longshot but does anyone have a picture of a khorne juggernaut next to a tuskgor chariot? I'm wondering if bestigor mounted on juggernaut might make a decent conversion for a tuskgor in my Brass Despoilers khorne army idea.

Edited by The Red King

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Buff Gors to more attacks and 3+ to wound, honestly Bestigors should be slightly better than they are now too, give them 2D. Bestigors should be more rare on the table with maybe 30 of them, not 90. Gors and Ungors should be 50-90 models. Bestigors going to 2D means they are going to hit very hard.

Also I want a bravery buff that is this

Ungors get +1 to bravery for each Gor or Bestigor unit within 6", Gors gets +1 Bravery for each Bestigor within 6" Bestigors should be Bravery 8.

Ungors 60/200pts, Gors 80pts/200, Bestigors 130/330pts

Edited by Maddpainting
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On 11/18/2020 at 11:49 AM, Ganigumo said:

What I mean by better on objectives is to give them a rule that makes them stronger defending objectives, something like "While this unit is within 6" of an objective you control add 1 to its attack characteristic and reroll wound rolls of 1. While this unit is within 6" of a contested objective add 2 to it's attack characteristic and reroll all wound rolls."

Oh yeah okay.  Craftworld Eldar have a similar custom trait like that.  However,.. I feel it goes against the "destroy everything" Beasts of Chaos have going for them.  

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1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

Oh yeah okay.  Craftworld Eldar have a similar custom trait like that.  However,.. I feel it goes against the "destroy everything" Beasts of Chaos have going for them.  

You could phrase it to be more fitting, like throwing a party or defiling the objective.

Might be horribly broken, but a "burn" allegiance ability like on scorched earth could actually be pretty interesting.

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8 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

but a "burn" allegiance ability like on scorched earth could actually be pretty interesting.

Not  bad idea, but maybe something more like if you take an objective from your opponent score an additional point. Or maybe  the ability to convert terrain features into despoiled terrain. Like the beasts get some sort of buff by such terrain and can activate something in the hero phase to turn pieces into it. Combined with the ambush rule, it could make it feel like an encroaching destabilizing influence, coming from all sides. Could do despoiled objectives instead. Just replace terrain with objective.

Ideas for possible bonuses: 1: + attack or hit rolls by despoiled terrain. - pretty powerful, makes our mediocre troops dangerous near terrain. Wildwoods beware.            2: Mini herdstone auras in a small radius around the terrain. - Probably too good, easily unbalanced against certain armies or ends up being lame (might just neutralize the cover).            3:  6s to hit generate additional attacks or mortals, or something else on 6s. - Not super great. Easily countered or forgotten. You have to despoil it first to get benefit, so not always helpful.                    4:  Enemies treat it as dangerous terrain. - not overly impactful, but could swing some games. Kind of lame though.               5: Bravery buff and/or increased speed? - Softens a weakness and/or makes us even better at something. - situationally powerful, more defensive. Alright, that's enough theory hammer. Off to bed!

For Morghur!!

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So lads. It seems there might be a possible Slaanbull on the horizon.

GW just had their update notice, with bunch of new stuff (mostly for 40K) but for AoS Sigvald is getting a pretty darn nice new model with lot of potential for conversions. Plus a warband of his own for Warcry.

But thats not why I am writing this comment.

On the pic of his warband, in the background there seems to be a some sort of minotaur miniature. However it doesnt seem like any of the current line.

Could it possibly be a Slaanbull ? 126352661_10224544061929758_7466831596939060707_o.jpg.6f6c13b4db2031ee9bb0f56f1f1ce9ac.jpg

Unlike the other Warcry monsters that we do not get becasue "*insert bunch of nonsense and stupid reasoning why not, that doesnt really work (yes I am still salty we cant use those warcry beasties as regular BoC units)*", I dont think they would deny us aces to this one if it indeed is a Slaanbull in all its glory (hope its rules are not Slaanesh only, but work for BoC as well).

But what do you think ?

Edited by Myrdin
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Looks like Slaangor there which is good from a Beasts perspective as would expect those to fit here too. It's the other picture linked in the background that shows something bulkier that could be some kind of Slaanbull perhaps but really hard to tell

4UvZkxg.png

Edited by Elazar The Glorified
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Hello all. QQ: can i use the headstone in a 500 point game? Seems a bit unfair as summoning is a bit op when you consider the points as a proportion of 500 in comparison to 2000. 

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9 minutes ago, Sam24 said:

Hello all. QQ: can i use the headstone in a 500 point game? Seems a bit unfair as summoning is a bit op when you consider the points as a proportion of 500 in comparison to 2000. 

Depends on the game. If both players agree to use scenery then dont see why not. Have played some where none was used untill 1000-1500 points and have played some where they were used at 500. Hope it helps 

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Thank you both. 
 

had a frustrating game this evening losing 11 ungor raiders to battle shock and 18 gors to one gyro bomber flyover. Lost my beast lord first turn too the. Rolled a 1 for the spawn. In a 500 point game, those outcomes were pretty devastating. 
 

can you summon using primordial call points when you have no general? 

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2 hours ago, Sam24 said:

can you summon using primordial call points when you have no general? 

Yes. It's not a command ability and it doesn't say that you need one to activate it. You however won't be able to sacrifice models without a hero near the herdstone and thus will be relying on the passive 1 per turn.

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