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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

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2 hours ago, Myrdin said:

I am well aware of the Mierce Miniatures friend :)
Already in possession of several of their Beastmen characters, great looking Minotaurs and "Bestigors",  whom are nice and dynamic looking sculpts, when put next to the rank & file bestigors who just dont lookg as good once out of the movement trays.

Have you seen the minotaurs from Zealot Miniatures?

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@swarmofsealsYou ignored my point regarding non-competetive play revolving largely around the same lists, but sure the book has a strong set of competetive options.

My issue, I guess, is that non-competetive options of the book are so non-competetive that they actively hinder your ability to win games.

And I dislike any labelling of criticism of the faults in a book as "whining". Just because you can do one or two strong builds out of an army doesn't make all the options that can't be used in those builds "okay".

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This is my Doombull from Zealot Miniatures, I've got their whole range, probably the best Minotaur's out there... and a size comparison to a megaboss haha! He's a biggun! He's not finished yet, got some more weathering to do on the Metallica, so symbols to he painted on the skulls and the rest of the horns to be done. 

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3 hours ago, Fulkes said:

@swarmofsealsYou ignored my point regarding non-competetive play revolving largely around the same lists, but sure the book has a strong set of competetive options.

My issue, I guess, is that non-competetive options of the book are so non-competetive that they actively hinder your ability to win games.

And I dislike any labelling of criticism of the faults in a book as "whining". Just because you can do one or two strong builds out of an army doesn't make all the options that can't be used in those builds "okay".

Maybe it does where you are, but I don't think that is even close to universally true. In my area I've only managed to find one person who really wants to practice tournament level lists. Most people bring really untuned lists. 

I really disagree with your second point. I mean yes, if you want to take four Cygors you are going to struggle a lot. But if you want to take Gors instead of Ungors the impact should be absolutely minimal. Yes it may hinder your ability to win games by a tiny amount, but again this speaks to my point about inflexibility. If you are only willing to play the list with the absolute maximum win % possible AND you only want to play a very specific set of warscrolls and battle traits for narrative/aesthetic reasons you are likely going to have a hard time in AOS no matter what tome you play. Most of the second tier units in Beasts of Chaos are just a tad behind the top tier units. In most battletomes, the gap is much wider.

Hear hear though about the whining thing. Constructive criticism is useful, and I hate to see it labeled as whining.

 

@Ekrund Oath Splitters I am very sad that I missed that kickstarter! Those minotaurs are amazing sculpts. I'm glade they're now officially released, although they are certainly not cheap. How do the normal minotaurs compare with the GW ones size-wise?

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@swarmofseals I guess it comes down to who you normally play against. My enviroment starts with semi-competetive and goes up from there. Net listing and optimization ate common things.

Plus some armies habevthings so good they basically build themselves (DoK).

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Eeven if you have a competitive environment you can still get good games in with just about any of the units in the book. Some require a lot more work to figure out how but you definitely can. If your only enjoyment comes from winning then it isnt for you. If you are just there to get good games and win close to 50% of your games then you can just about make anything work. Maybe not against the top lists played by a good player but anything short of that and you can.

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1 hour ago, cranect said:

Eeven if you have a competitive environment you can still get good games in with just about any of the units in the book. Some require a lot more work to figure out how but you definitely can. If your only enjoyment comes from winning then it isnt for you. If you are just there to get good games and win close to 50% of your games then you can just about make anything work. Maybe not against the top lists played by a good player but anything short of that and you can.

My only enjoyment doesn't come from winning, but I don't enjoy having my teeth kicked in either.

Much of the advice an opinion about the army pushes the idea that you shouldn't use about half the book. Hearing people then say "forget that, it's basically all good 👍" gives me a fair bit of whiplash. 

I don't disagree that you can fly in the face of internet wisdom and win games (I did it with Repentia for three editions in my Sisters army), but when everyone pushes you towards a certain build and then says "oh, forget what we said if you're not playing tournaments" I have trouble switching trains to join that side of things.

At the end of the day Allherd is still a mess of a Greatfrey. It lacks an real bonus for pushing you to always be in combat for its leadership bonus, it barely helps with the summoning and frankly the artefact is a joke. Even the most casual players skip right over it and look at the other two 'freys. 

One guy making it work with bird goats doesn't make it a good choice either. That's like saying the Beastlord is good just because he can carry the Gavespawn artefact. It's the artefact that makes him good, not his own merits as a model, likewise it's the bird goats who make the Allherd Greatfrey good, not the 'frey itself.

And maybe it is just the loss of several options we used to havr (like the army standard) that are causing the problem for me. I cut my teeth with Beastmen at the start of 8th, so the way they function now doesn't mesh with the playstyle I enjoyed then and that might be where the frustration I'm having with the army comes from. We just lost too many tools that the army needed to be played the same way.

I have no intention of quitting the army, but when it doesn't let you really reflect the lore on the table and bring out a playstyle that feels like ther herds of old, it's a bit frustrating for someone like me. I'd probably be happier if I had less history with the army I guess. 

I'm still going to be painting Goat men, I'm just going to need time to reconcile how much the army changed I guess.

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It just hit me that we can ambush with the tzaangors of all kinds.

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9 hours ago, thebloody9 said:

That Doombull looks like more than 8 wounds to me!

Hahaha well he has to heal a couple D3 as well.... 🤣😂 i never liked the GW minotaurs, not even when they were first released! 🤢🤮

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Maybe it does where you are, but I don't think that is even close to universally true. In my area I've only managed to find one person who really wants to practice tournament level lists. Most people bring really untuned lists. 

I really disagree with your second point. I mean yes, if you want to take four Cygors you are going to struggle a lot. But if you want to take Gors instead of Ungors the impact should be absolutely minimal. Yes it may hinder your ability to win games by a tiny amount, but again this speaks to my point about inflexibility. If you are only willing to play the list with the absolute maximum win % possible AND you only want to play a very specific set of warscrolls and battle traits for narrative/aesthetic reasons you are likely going to have a hard time in AOS no matter what tome you play. Most of the second tier units in Beasts of Chaos are just a tad behind the top tier units. In most battletomes, the gap is much wider.

Hear hear though about the whining thing. Constructive criticism is useful, and I hate to see it labeled as whining.

 

@Ekrund Oath Splitters I am very sad that I missed that kickstarter! Those minotaurs are amazing sculpts. I'm glade they're now officially released, although they are certainly not cheap. How do the normal minotaurs compare with the GW ones size-wise?

Well the standard Minotaurs are around 54 - 60mm tall with the Chieftain being 68mm tall. Basically every normal Minotaur is the a head taller than a Megaboss, but ive never had any complaints, infact ive always had compliments towards to model, especially the shaman model. I used the Undead Minotaur as a Chaos Spawn and im not looking at getting some Mierce Miniatures Gul Garbax to use as Bestigors and sell off my older ones. The price isnt as bad as you think, when a GW Doombull is £30 and the Minotaur General is £25 and hes a considerably bigger and better sculpt. Roughly it was £200 for the whole range they did but once there gone youll have to fish for them on Ebay where the price will sky rocket.... honestly i say go get some, even if its just 1 to begin with, I started with the Beserk Minotaur just to try them out, i painted him up and hes my favourite model of the range and he won me a painting comp just recently.

Edited by Ekrund Oath Splitters

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3 hours ago, Fulkes said:

My only enjoyment doesn't come from winning, but I don't enjoy having my teeth kicked in either.

Much of the advice an opinion about the army pushes the idea that you shouldn't use about half the book. Hearing people then say "forget that, it's basically all good 👍" gives me a fair bit of whiplash. 

I don't disagree that you can fly in the face of internet wisdom and win games (I did it with Repentia for three editions in my Sisters army), but when everyone pushes you towards a certain build and then says "oh, forget what we said if you're not playing tournaments" I have trouble switching trains to join that side of things.

At the end of the day Allherd is still a mess of a Greatfrey. It lacks an real bonus for pushing you to always be in combat for its leadership bonus, it barely helps with the summoning and frankly the artefact is a joke. Even the most casual players skip right over it and look at the other two 'freys. 

One guy making it work with bird goats doesn't make it a good choice either. That's like saying the Beastlord is good just because he can carry the Gavespawn artefact. It's the artefact that makes him good, not his own merits as a model, likewise it's the bird goats who make the Allherd Greatfrey good, not the 'frey itself.

And maybe it is just the loss of several options we used to havr (like the army standard) that are causing the problem for me. I cut my teeth with Beastmen at the start of 8th, so the way they function now doesn't mesh with the playstyle I enjoyed then and that might be where the frustration I'm having with the army comes from. We just lost too many tools that the army needed to be played the same way.

I have no intention of quitting the army, but when it doesn't let you really reflect the lore on the table and bring out a playstyle that feels like ther herds of old, it's a bit frustrating for someone like me. I'd probably be happier if I had less history with the army I guess. 

I'm still going to be painting Goat men, I'm just going to need time to reconcile how much the army changed I guess.

I would tend to suggest not to listen to everything people spew on the internet. I watch and listen to a ****** tonne of batreps and podcasts to keep up with the meta but im not one to follow and copy other peoples ideas and lists. Whats good in someone elses eyes isnt good in anothers. You shouldnt let people push you into certain play styles and builds and whilst people can write off units for being statistically inferior to another, have they actually used them in person? Just like me with Gors, yeah Besties, Ungor and Tzaangor are better options, but i make what i got work. Pure and simple. The amount of times ive had people come up to me at tournaments and say Ironjawz are bad and then i krump them is unreal. At the end of the day its how you use your army that makes it what it is and Beastmen should be played like Beastmen, we arent like every other Faction out there, we need to be cunning and we need to be ruthless, we arent a point and click style of army like FeC and DoK, you need restraint and finesse, you cant just charge your big blob of Goats into the thick of things and pray they come out on top as they wont.

And in response to loosing options, i think most old world races that were ported over have lost a degree of what they used to have. Like you said i would love a BSB back, give him the Totem keyword and give us a choice of banners. Give us some flying units akin to harpies/furies, give us the Gorebull and Wargor. Even making special characters into just characters would of been amazing.... I always used the Shadowgave or Slugtongue, i loved their lore and how they played, they can easily be ported into AoS, same with the Dark Omen and the two headed Ungor guy. 

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I admit I likely over rely on the internet when first dipping into an army. The game isn't cheap and while I want to own everything, I also want to prioritize the stuff that plays well so I can stand a decent chance of winning. So it's probably my fault for buying into the hyperbole.

I still feel some blame should be leveled at the rules though. While we don't have a Hagg Nar option in terms of strength, we definitely have options that are so obviously better that it's hard for even casual players to pick something else (Gavespawn specifically). And consodering it's not even a game breaking level of "good" it just makes me wish the rest of the book was at that level too.

It could always be worse I know, we could have been the next KO, but that doesn't change that there are some balance issues with the book that I hope get addressed the next go round.

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There are some issues but while gavespawn is in general easier to use well darkwalkers and allherd could be used well it just needs to be done more carefully. I would agree they are not as good but they have some merits. The book isnt perfect. It is definitely good though. Sometimes you just have to say I don't care what the internet says I am going to make this work. If you put your mind to it then with this book at least it likely will. Just remember the internet always over exaggerates everything. Also they are not always experts on what they are saying. Mathhammer is fine and has its place but it doesn't tell you everything. Also I am glad it isn't a game breaking level. It is strong but not ridiculous. It is right where the books should be. Could the monsters use some help yes but so could every nonhero monster and some that are heroes. 

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On the monster side I've thinks, I've been trying out multiple Cockatrices recently and they really are quite good.  If you've got a plenty of bodies to keep your opponent tied down, 3-4 Cockarices can quickly make a mess of a wide range of threats. Ignoring to hit penalties is great for hero hunting.

Played a game with 3 last week, they all missed turn one, but then proceeded to destroy a hell pit abomination, and  two Verminlords over the next few turns. They even did well in combat, as long as they are ganging up on something that's not too hardy (small units of clan rats and some weapon teams).

Going to be trying out the full 4 I have converted up this week, probably facing storm-cast, so should be lots of juicy targets for those mortal wounds.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, cranect said:

There are some issues but while gavespawn is in general easier to use well darkwalkers and allherd could be used well it just needs to be done more carefully. I would agree they are not as good but they have some merits. The book isnt perfect. It is definitely good though. Sometimes you just have to say I don't care what the internet says I am going to make this work. If you put your mind to it then with this book at least it likely will. Just remember the internet always over exaggerates everything. Also they are not always experts on what they are saying. Mathhammer is fine and has its place but it doesn't tell you everything. Also I am glad it isn't a game breaking level. It is strong but not ridiculous. It is right where the books should be. Could the monsters use some help yes but so could every nonhero monster and some that are heroes. 

The problem is there are obvious imbalances, look at Disks vs Bulls, same points. Bulls are slower, no fly, more damage but less attacks, over all Disks will do equal to more damage if given equal hero support. Why are bulls not cheaper? If Bulls hit on 3+ and had 4+ save then yeah i could see the price being fine, but 2 attacks hitting on 4+? and being low armor save... yeah no.

You are correct the book isnt perfect, but we are not pointing out minor things, these are just blanket imbalances. I understand that a Chariot might be hard to balance or Cockatrice due to if they are too cheap they will be spammed (like the Razorgor 17-21 unit lists) but Gors, Bulls, Dragon ogres, Ghorgons are all clearly balanced incorrectly.

Edited by Maddpainting
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13 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

The problem is there are obvious imbalances, look at Disks vs Bulls, same points. Bulls are slower, no fly, more damage but less attacks, over all Disks will do equal to more damage if given equal hero support. Why are bulls not cheaper? If Bulls hit on 3+ and had 4+ save then yeah i could see the price being fine, but 2 attacks hitting on 4+? and being low armor save... yeah no.

You are correct the book isnt perfect, but we are not pointing out minor things, these are just blanket imbalances. I understand that a Chariot might be hard to balance or Cockatrice due to if they are too cheap they will be spammed (like the Razorgor 17-21 unit lists) but Gors, Bulls, Dragon ogres, Ghorgons are all clearly balanced incorrectly.

I know exactly what bulls can do. Ya they are slower than enlightened and with hero support equal damage. If the enlightened are also able to do the clip charge or have a screen they can do more assuming it isnt a stupid high save. The bulls dont need the support though. It isnt as reliant on other things. I run an all warherd list with 2 cygor, 2 ghorgon, 18 bulls, and a doombull. Is it optimal? No. Can it compete and give good games even against the top tier stuff hell yes. Not only that but it is relatively simple to do so.

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Posted (edited)

Sorry it double posted.

Edited by cranect
Double post

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I hate to interrupt this very robust conversation with a somewhat selfish question. But I'm gonna do it anyways >_<

I have a Nurgle army and I LOVE the pestigor sculpts. I cant justify adding in the pestilent thong battalion at 200 + two units of ungors so that bestigors get the keyword. But adding in a 30 goat unit of besties, and a bray shaman and Wildfire Taurus to my Nurgle army sounds delicious. They arent exactly point and click, but they seem REALLY good. Blades of putrefaction (7+ to cast, pick a FRIENDLY unit and 6+ to hit is MW in addition to damage) is a nurgle spell that works on bestigors. And its not unmodified to hit. Hoping to wreck face with this combo.

Any tips on how to use bestigors to their fullest potential outside of a BoC army?  The rest of the army is blightking heavy, some of the blightkings on flies as a tarpit (28 wounds 4+/5++/5++). Will the bestigors, shaman and taurus be able to hold thier own as an independent group? Is the pestilent thong worth it?? Thanks for any and all help in advance goat bois :)

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Posted (edited)

With nurgle you can also get extra attacks from the glottkin I think and a great unclean one plus the first in the cycle can get you going very fast and then charging turn 1 if you want. I think nurgle could definitely be useful. Plus any screen or small units like chariots or razorgors can just torpedo in and deal MW when they die. 

I will say anything that can't already run and charge will benefit a bit more due to the trees but bestigor would gain enough benefit I think.

Edited by cranect
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14 hours ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

This is my Doombull from Zealot Miniatures, I've got their whole range, probably the best Minotaur's out there... and a size comparison to a megaboss haha! He's a biggun! He's not finished yet, got some more weathering to do on the Metallica, so symbols to he painted on the skulls and the rest of the horns to be done. 

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Just went looking how the rest of those Minotaurs looked like and damn they really good me hooked on.

Im starting to think of buying 7of those guys to add to my Boc collecting.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Just went looking how the rest of those Minotaurs looked like and damn they really good me hooked on.

Im starting to think of buying 7of those guys to add to my Boc collecting.

Ive just now finished the Big Bull and now starting on the 4th minotaur from them, i would highly recommend them!!! Ive only had one instance where ive had a problem with the resin that was used but nothing a bit of greenstuff and time cant fix. ill post pics of the Doombull in a bit.

The 2 female minotaurs are also awesome as is the zombie and the matriarch

Edited by Ekrund Oath Splitters

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1 hour ago, Fulkes said:

I admit I likely over rely on the internet when first dipping into an army. The game isn't cheap and while I want to own everything, I also want to prioritize the stuff that plays well so I can stand a decent chance of winning. So it's probably my fault for buying into the hyperbole.

I still feel some blame should be leveled at the rules though. While we don't have a Hagg Nar option in terms of strength, we definitely have options that are so obviously better that it's hard for even casual players to pick something else (Gavespawn specifically). And consodering it's not even a game breaking level of "good" it just makes me wish the rest of the book was at that level too.

It could always be worse I know, we could have been the next KO, but that doesn't change that there are some balance issues with the book that I hope get addressed the next go round.

Gavespawn is good, but is hardly a no-brainer.  The only competitive Gavespawn list I know of that has actually done well at a major event is Joel McGrath's alpha shooting Desolating Beastherd list. He placed fourth at CanCon with it. 

The true power list (i.e. Daniel Bradshaw's UK Masters and Sheffield Slaughter list) doesn't use any Fray at all: just Shadowpelt and Ignax's Scales on the Tzaangor Shaman general.

I'm not a player of Daniel Bradshaw's or Joel McGrath's calibre, but I've won a tournament with Beasts a few months ago, and just placed second at another tournament this past weekend (all Majors Wins, but didn't score enough Kill Points to take first), and I don't run a Fray either: Shaggoth general with Ancient Beyond Knowing and Aetherquartz Brooch brings more to my list than any of the Frays. I've also run Allherd + Desolating Beastherd + Aetherquartz Brooch at an event last year and did pretty well (no losses).  I wouldn't be opposed to running it again.

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Posted (edited)

I saw this Hedonites of Slaanesh list and it looked kind of cool 😊 But I prefer pure Beasts of chaos myself. Im temted to try them out soon. Just have to buy loads of stuff 😅

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Edited by Amradiel
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20 minutes ago, cranect said:

With nurgle you can also get extra attacks from the glottkin I think and a great unclean one plus the first in the cycle can get you going very fast and then charging turn 1 if you want. I think nurgle could definitely be useful. Plus any screen or small units like chariots or razorgors can just torpedo in and deal MW when they die. 

I will say anything that can't already run and charge will benefit a bit more due to the trees but bestigor would gain enough benefit I think.

You could get extra attacks from Glott. GUO requires the demon keyword. I agree on all fronts. Perhaps I will try it out. 

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