AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Maddpainting]

Are you talking about new rules in GH2? I dont have my BRB on me atm, but i thought it was for every 50 you dont spend you get 1CP.

[Fulkes]

3 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

The book is tremendous - unfortunately many BoC players would rather whine about what's not there than focus on where the army falls in the overall scope of play. Much like every other book in the game there are very strong options and then options that don't hold up - BoC isn't unique in this, its the same game every other army plays. The benefit is our strong options are very competitive - we have access to most of the tools needed to be successful in AoS and there are results from it. In addition to the CanCon and masters lists Rick Myhill did well with BoC at BOBO. On the whole I can't recommend BoC enough, its a great book with enough tools for you to build the kit you want. Ignore the BoC whinerbase. 

Reign it in their champ. The "whining" from the community it has nothibg to do with the idea that the book is unplayable. The complaints stem from the fact that many of us want to play more varied lists than Gavespawn + Ungor/Bestigor spam. Thr book has a LOT of cool stuff in it from the big monsters to some of other units but you fight a losing battle if you take those ouside of summoning. 

No one should look down on others simply because they want to use all the tools available. Furthermore, it's fallacious to assume that because we have a competetive build or two that win games that everything else doesn't matter. GW didn't sell us a book with only those competetive builds, they sold us ones with a lot of meh as well.

And before I hear "but you can use them in Narrative/Open Play" let me give you a reminder: even in Narrative/Open Play people want to win. Throwing that away just so we can run Allherd or Jabberslyths is frankly dumb.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

i think all of us mainly play Beastmen because we like the lore and aesthetics of the army, ive had beastmen since 6th ed Fantasy same with Lizardmen and Orcs and Goblins. They arent the best armies and they probably will never be the best but they have unique ways that make them fun to play and with good tactics you can pull out wins versus better armies. Ive always managed to find away to tackle those types of armies, the only restraints we add are the ones we impose ourselves. Try things people havent done and do what makes you happy, everyone plays their armies differently. (Im a huge Minotaur lover, might not be the best options in the book but i sure as hell know how to play them right).  

[Fulkes]

Sadly the way I want to play Beastmen (large usr of Gor, Allherd, mix in some big wimpy things) is basically the worst way to play Beastmen. Which kills my motivation a bit as I work on things since I can't even really focus on the stuff I really like.

[cranect]

You can definitely do fine with other builds. I do well with a pure warherd build. I dont beat the most competitive people here but they play as competitively as they can for the big event. I definitely get some good games against even those though. I do run gavespawn but that is just for the artifact and the command ability. I could definitely win more if I took a unit or two of the brayherd for a screen and such but it breaks theme. If you are not in the highest competitive bracket you can make a lot of different builds work with practice.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

22 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

Sadly the way I want to play Beastmen (large usr of Gor, Allherd, mix in some big wimpy things) is basically the worst way to play Beastmen. Which kills my motivation a bit as I work on things since I can't even really focus on the stuff I really like.

whats the meta like round you are? Allherd may be in a better spot than other peoples local meta. Like in my area and tournaments around my county, there isnt a huge showing of DoC and FeC, its still very much LoN and MK then a tonne of GG players and a handful of Skaven.

In fact i dont think there is even a Single IDK player that goes my local store (we have a huge community for AoS) haha! If there is one hes probably a rare occurrence. 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Ekrund Oath Splitters

[Fulkes]

7 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

whats the meta like round you are? Allherd may be in a better spot than other peoples local meta. Like in my area and tournaments around my county, there isnt a huge showing of DoC and FeC, its still very much LoN and MK then a tonne of GG players and a handful of Skaven.

In fact i dont think there is even a Single IDK player that goes my local store (we have a huge community for AoS) haha! If there is one hes probably a rare occurrence. 

It comes and goes but I know we recently got 2 Fyreslayer players, and there's some folks jumping on Moonclan and Sylvaneth thanks to the box set. The store owner has a pretty sizable Nurgle force too now that I think about it.

[Maddpainting]

4 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

whats the meta like round you are? Allherd may be in a better spot than other peoples local meta. Like in my area and tournaments around my county, there isnt a huge showing of DoC and FeC, its still very much LoN and MK then a tonne of GG players and a handful of Skaven.

In fact i dont think there is even a Single IDK player that goes my local store (we have a huge community for AoS) haha! If there is one hes probably a rare occurrence. 

The problem isnt allherd, its Gors and big monsters are the worst that our book offers, the best units are Raiders, Disks, and Bestigors. Our worst is what makes us who we are.

Imagine Goblins but Goblins are bad, or Skavin but clan rats were bad, etc... No one would stand for that.

[SwampHeart]

3 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Our worst is what makes us who we are.

Debatable at best - Ungors and Bestigors are both iconic Beasts of Chaos units right alongside Gors. 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

1 minute ago, Fulkes said:

It comes and goes but I know we recently got 2 Fyreslayer players, and there's some folks jumping on Moonclan and Sylvaneth thanks to the box set. The store owner has a pretty sizable Nurgle force too now that I think about it.

oh yeah we have no Stunties in our lot! 🤣🤣🤣 well maybe youll be fine with Allherd then

[Maddpainting]

Gors, Ungors, Chariots where "Core" so you had to have 25% of your army those, then you could have other things like Bestigors and even then back in 7th-8th they were not to good, a bit over priced (well everything in BoC was) you took 2 Razorgors and 2 Chariots and 1 unit of 30 Bestigors alongside your Gors/Ungors/Chariots, normally 4-5 Chariots. You only saw 1 unit of Bestigors at most. You normally saw Minotaur's more often (they hit harder and were generally better)

Edited June 17, 2019 by Maddpainting
Added

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

19 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

The problem isnt allherd, its Gors and big monsters are the worst that our book offers, the best units are Raiders, Disks, and Bestigors. Our worst is what makes us who we are.

Imagine Goblins but Goblins are bad, or Skavin but clan rats were bad, etc... No one would stand for that.

Ive made Gors work alright for me, mainly by ambushing and getting charges off with Cogs and using the Brayblast Horn, i then summon in Bestigors. Goblins are bad if you kill off the Heroes and Skaven i havent played them since 8th haha so no idea what they do!

I think you just need to know their limits, which yes is quite small they still do a job. They will never compete with Ghouls, Wyches or Grimghast Reapers but they dont need to, i use them to go hunt support units in the backlines or on exposed flanks and with that i pick my opponent apart piece by piece. Like someone said before Beastmen tend to dictate the engagements as we are quite speedy as a army and with the Taurus we get to strike first the majority of the time. The heavy work i leave to my Bestigors and Bullgors as thats what they are meant to do. Of course we wont win in activation wars but theres nothing stopping you out smarting your opponent and pulling a win. Thats how ive always seen beastmen, they turn engagements on their heads and they are the ones to choose when a fight starts and when you give a flank. Only a couple armies can match our speed as well as us.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Ekrund Oath Splitters

[SwampHeart]

5 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

You only saw 1 unit of Bestigors at most.

Which had nothing to do with how good Bestigors were - they were a Special selection rather than Core and the Deathstar nature of 7th and 8th edition WHFB led to effectively a few large units to power up with buffs and then chaff to help dictate the pace of combats. Razgors weren't taken because they were good - they were taken because they were very effective charge blockers, the same reason people used to field harpies in Beasts. I've played BoC since it was a Skirmishing army where Ungors and Gors were in the same units and Ungors died to shooting and you got +2 rank bonus for combat res. instead of +3 with a Beasts. I'm entirely aware of the history of the army and I've played it through its highs and lows. 

Gors are worse than Ungors however they're not so much worse that they're unusable, they're just a subpar choice. If the only thing you care about is winning sure you'll only ever take Ungors but if Gors are the iconic unit that people demand to use then you can clearly make them work, you're just playing slightly down from where you'd be with Ungors instead. 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

12 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Which had nothing to do with how good Bestigors were - they were a Special selection rather than Core and the Deathstar nature of 7th and 8th edition WHFB led to effectively a few large units to power up with buffs and then chaff to help dictate the pace of combats. Razgors weren't taken because they were good - they were taken because they were very effective charge blockers, the same reason people used to field harpies in Beasts. I've played BoC since it was a Skirmishing army where Ungors and Gors were in the same units and Ungors died to shooting and you got +2 rank bonus for combat res. instead of +3 with a Beasts. I'm entirely aware of the history of the army and I've played it through its highs and lows. 

Gors are worse than Ungors however they're not so much worse that they're unusable, they're just a subpar choice. If the only thing you care about is winning sure you'll only ever take Ungors but if Gors are the iconic unit that people demand to use then you can clearly make them work, you're just playing slightly down from where you'd be with Ungors instead. 

Im generally curious why Ungors are seen as the better option over Gor? For a 1pt difference per model the Gor has a better armour save and a better bravery, Gors gain +1 attack and Ungor get reroll 1s and 2s to hit. With good honeycombing you can get 2 ranks of Gor fighting and i assume people dont use spears with Ungor? Or is it the fact you get more of them at Horde cost than the Gors Horde cost? I see them more as equal, Ungors die quicker and will break to battleshock more often and severely, where as Gors just dont have a good amount of attacks of which it can be worsened as soon as they become 19 and below.  

Edited June 17, 2019 by Ekrund Oath Splitters

[Fulkes]

1 minute ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Im generally curious why Ungors are seen as the better option over Gor? For a 1pt difference per model the Gor has a better armour save and a better bravery, Gors gain +1 attack and Ungor get reroll 1s and 2s to hit. With good honeycombing you can get 2 ranks of Gor fighting and i assume people dont use spears with Ungor? Or is it the fact you get more of them at Horde cost than the Gors Horde cost? I see them more as equal, Ungors die quicker and will break to battleshock more often and severely, where as Gors just dont have a good amount of attacks of which is can be worsened as soon as they become 19 and below.  

Base size namely. You get more attacks into a smaller footprint. And the unit goes to 40 making it able to screen larger areas.

[cranect]

35 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

It comes and goes but I know we recently got 2 Fyreslayer players, and there's some folks jumping on Moonclan and Sylvaneth thanks to the box set. The store owner has a pretty sizable Nurgle force too now that I think about it.

I think beasts are going to be one of the better matchups vs fyreslayers. There are so many ways to reduce their saves compared to other armies. As a fyreslayer player as well it has definitely made a difference with even just the extra modification due to the herdstone.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

1 minute ago, Fulkes said:

Base size namely. You get more attacks into a smaller footprint. And the unit goes to 40 making it able to screen larger areas.

Ive never found that my Gors struggle to all get into base contact especially with a 4" pile in and when you honeycomb them well you get the majority into atleast 1" range to swing. You can now grant them reroll 1s to hit from the new GHB2019 CA and they natively have more attacks. I personally would never go for spears as there are loads of abilities and spells that grant -1 and above to hit which means Ungors loose half their hits. So really i think its down to what you prefer from your battleline. I have a constantly shifting mainline that curves and bends as i maneuver around my opponent so i tend not to take masses of Ungor. I generally prefer Gors but i see them as equals in terms of utility.

[SwampHeart]

8 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Ungors die quicker and will break to battleshock more often and severely,

Ungors don't die at a meaningfully greater rate when comparing 40 bodies to 30, additionally Gors are only Bravery 5 (i.e. 1 point higher than Ungors at 4). At maximum unit sizes they have an identical bravery of 7 because of the difference in 10 extra bodies. 

Edited June 17, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

3 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Ungors don't die at a meaningfully greater rate when comparing 40 bodies to 30, additionally Gors are only Bravery 5 (i.e. 1 point higher than Ungors at 4). At maximum unit sizes they have an identical bravery of 7 because of the difference in 10 extra bodies. 

My Gors tend to be in ambush turn 1, i use smaller units of Ungor to create road blocks and barriers to my opponent. That 1 extra bravery could spell the difference between loosing the unit or not (Ive noticed it hugely with my Squig Hoppers vs Boingrot Bounders).

At the end of the day everyone has their own play styles. I like to make my opponent reactive and force a more defensive play style from him. If i can govern where he goes and how he moves his support heroes and unit, then my Gors have done their jobs. Bestigors are their to crack skulls.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Ekrund Oath Splitters

[SwampHeart]

7 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

My Gors tend to be in ambush turn 1, i use smaller units of Ungor to create road blocks and barriers to my opponent. That 1 extra bravery could spell the difference between loosing the unit or not (Ive noticed it hugely with my Squig Hoppers vs Boingrot Bounders).

There's no meaningful role that Gors fill that isn't better filled by Centigors (literally just better Gors, at least with the GHB there is a 10 point difference between the 2 units), by Bestigors (who's offensive output is tremendous), or by Ungors who are cheaper for the same job. Gors are an OK unit who's job is done better by 3 other choices.  Ungors are better as road blocks, chaff, and distraction because they're cheaper. You don't buy 10 Gors with the intent for them to do anything that isn't positioning based anyway so why spend an extra 10 points when both units can do the same things as far table space, chaff, screening etc. The only time Gors exceed Ungors is when both units are purchased 20 models which is effectively a unit size you'd never buy - you either buy maximum size units or minimum sized units. 

With the GHB point changes 10 Gors are probably a viable unit, especially when you've got 10-20 points floating around in a list and can afford to upgrade 2 units of 10 Ungors to 2 units of 10 Gors. But from an initial purchase stand point I'd still start with Ungors. 40 Bodies is a more viable screen/tarpit and I'd rather pay 60 points to fill my minimum battle line/chaff roles than 70 since both will accomplish the same thing over the course of the game. 

There's also probably something to be said that I don't expect almost any BoC unit that isn't Bestigors,  Tzaangor Enlightened, or Raiders to do any damage that is worth discussing across the course of a game. So even if Gors are marginally better at fighting than Ungors for me that fits neatly into the 'who cares' section of my brain. None of our units are durable enough to grind anything so the goal has to be to go all punch all the time.

Edited June 17, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

There's no meaningful role that Gors fill that isn't better filled by Centigors (literally just better Gors, at least with the GHB there is a 10 point difference between the 2 units), by Bestigors (who's offensive output is tremendous), or by Ungors who are cheaper for the same job. Gors are an OK unit who's job is done better by 3 other choices.  Ungors are better as road blocks, chaff, and distraction because they're cheaper. You don't buy 10 Gors with the intent for them to do anything that isn't positioning based anyway so why spend an extra 10 points when both units can do the same things as far table space, chaff, screening etc. The only time Gors exceed Ungors is when both units are purchased 20 models which is effectively a unit size you'd never buy - you either buy maximum size units or minimum sized units. 

With the GHB point changes 10 Gors are probably a viable unit, especially when you've got 10-20 points floating around in a list and can afford to upgrade 2 units of 10 Ungors to 2 units of 10 Gors. But from an initial purchase stand point I'd still start with Ungors. 40 Bodies is a more viable screen/tarpit and I'd rather pay 60 points to fill my minimum battle line/chaff roles than 70 since both will accomplish the same thing over the course of the game. 

I cant stand the look of Centigor models or the price for just 5 dudes haha! 😂 if it works for other then great! Gors work well for me. 

[Myrdin]

Well one things Gors had going for them was the Beast Banner BSB, which was the usual way to run them effectively.

Two hand weapons, Beast Banner BSB, and as many shaman buffs > usually Wyssans Wildform, you could possibly squeeze out of your around the Herdstone dancing Shamans.

As much as I like BoC, I never had as much fun back in the day with the army as I had after it transitioned into AoS. The army was pretty bad actually. Most of the wining lists had chariot spams, banking on rolling high Impact hits.

If you ran minotaurs you HAD to play a Minobus with kitted out Doombull. Good lord, the army was so dull and uninspiring. Even the ammusing stuff they thought off like Cygor > a monster that is also an artillery, fell short due to crappy rules and over excessive point cost. And lets not even mention the Gorghon.

 

I do miss the harpies though. 9th Age did a nice spin on Harpies, renaming them Gargoyles. T4 S3 but +1S on charge with 2 attacks on a fast flying platform, made for a pretty decent light skirmish unit that could also hit some medium level lightly armored stuff, rather than just hunting warmachines and archers (not elven ones lol).

The army as is, is good. Sure it has its up and downs, and sure I wish we got some fresh models, return of some Iconic synergy units like Beast Banner BsB, new lore based stuff like Khorn/Slaan/Pestigors, who would receive similar treatment like Tzaangors have (few different units and a character). Some more Beast types to broaden up the theme from just Goats, Bulls and Horses. Horned Boarmen, Bearmen and Werewolves if we wanna keep the forest theme,  or some more crazy looking stuff of non forest origin. Same with the big gribblies.  As far as models and units go the army has the most potential for amazing looking new stuff, that would put the whole 50+ unit rooster of Stormcast to shame.Some price adjustments and maybe rework and rewording for some of the rules on unit sheets and battalions, and the army would be gold.

Haaah >______< I`ll keep on hoping, no one saw BoC book coming until it hit, so who is to say we wont see at least some expansion in the form stuff being released and added additionally ? Also, new centigors bullgors and more dynamic poses for bestigor gors and ungors, would be very nice.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

7 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Well one things Gors had going for them was the Beast Banner BSB, which was the usual way to run them effectively.

Two hand weapons, Beast Banner BSB, and as many shaman buffs > usually Wyssans Wildform, you could possibly squeeze out of your around the Herdstone dancing Shamans.

As much as I like BoC, I never had as much fun back in the day with the army as I had after it transitioned into AoS. The army was pretty bad actually. Most of the wining lists had chariot spams, banking on rolling high Impact hits.

If you ran minotaurs you HAD to play a Minobus with kitted out Doombull. Good lord, the army was so dull and uninspiring. Even the ammusing stuff they thought off like Cygor > a monster that is also an artillery, fell short due to crappy rules and over excessive point cost. And lets not even mention the Gorghon.

 

I do miss the harpies though. 9th Age did a nice spin on Harpies, renaming them Gargoyles. T4 S3 but +1S on charge with 2 attacks on a fast flying platform, made for a pretty decent light skirmish unit that could also hit some medium level lightly armored stuff, rather than just hunting warmachines and archers (not elven ones lol).

The army as is, is good. Sure it has its up and downs, and sure I wish we got some fresh models, return of some Iconic synergy units like Beast Banner BsB, new lore based stuff like Khorn/Slaan/Pestigors, who would receive similar treatment like Tzaangors have (few different units and a character). Some more Beast types to broaden up the theme from just Goats, Bulls and Horses. Horned Boarmen, Bearmen and Werewolves if we wanna keep the forest theme,  or some more crazy looking stuff of non forest origin. Same with the big gribblies.  As far as models and units go the army has the most potential for amazing looking new stuff, that would put the whole 50+ unit rooster of Stormcast to shame.Some price adjustments and maybe rework and rewording for some of the rules on unit sheets and battalions, and the army would be gold.

Haaah >______< I`ll keep on hoping, no one saw BoC book coming until it hit, so who is to say we wont see at least some expansion in the form stuff being released and added additionally ? Also, new centigors bullgors and more dynamic poses for bestigor gors and ungors, would be very nice.

Mierce Miniatures have amazing Beastmen looking units, for Walrus, Mammoth, Rhino and Reptilian humanoids.

[Myrdin]

28 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Mierce Miniatures have amazing Beastmen looking units, for Walrus, Mammoth, Rhino and Reptilian humanoids.

I am well aware of the Mierce Miniatures friend
Already in possession of several of their Beastmen characters, great looking Minotaurs and "Bestigors",  whom are nice and dynamic looking sculpts, when put next to the rank & file bestigors who just dont lookg as good once out of the movement trays.

[swarmofseals]

3 hours ago, Fulkes said:

Reign it in their champ. The "whining" from the community it has nothibg to do with the idea that the book is unplayable. The complaints stem from the fact that many of us want to play more varied lists than Gavespawn + Ungor/Bestigor spam. Thr book has a LOT of cool stuff in it from the big monsters to some of other units but you fight a losing battle if you take those ouside of summoning. 

First off, I want to say that your complaint is definitely not whining and it does have legitimacy. I think you kinda missed the point that @SwampHeart was making though. He was arguing that the problem that you are describing is pretty much universal in all battletomes. Every single battletome has warscrolls that are appealing to some people but just don't quite make it to a competitive level. In that sense there is nothing "special" about Beasts of Chaos in this regard... it's just that your complaint is more valid as a complaint about the game in general than it is about Beasts of Chaos in particular.

In fact, I'd argue that Beasts of Chaos is one of the best battletomes yet released in terms of internal balance. You are certainly not wrong that Ungors, Enlightened on Disc, and Bestigors are pretty clearly the most competitive choices right now. That said, Gors are really not far behind Ungors at all, and most of the warscrolls in the tome are really very close -- close enough to be perfectly viable in all but the most competitive metagames. Centigors and Tzaangors are both very good and either do or should see successful tournament play. Skyfires have a niche role. Bullgors are not far behind Bestigors at all. Even things like Tuskgor Chariots and Razorgors have potential niche uses in god-specific lists. Dragon Ogors are perfectly fine.

The only warscrolls that I think are legitimately questionably weak are the behemoths, and I think that is a chronic problem in the game. Non-hero behemoths are almost universally bad. 

Personally, I think the design of the battletome is brilliant. It's a soup tome that managed to provide an incredible amount of versatility not only within itself, but to four other factions as well through the chaos god battalions. Honestly I wouldn't be all that inclined to collect BoC myself, but I was so impressed with the sheer possibilities presented by the tome that I now own an absurd number of BoC models. There are just so many BoC builds that are absolutely fine in all but the most competitive metagames, and I'm quite convinced that there are several T2 if not T1 builds that use mostly BoC models that just haven't seen any real level of play yet. 

Honestly, if you have a very strict preference for certain builds/units for aesthetic or narrative reasons while also having  a very strict need to field the most competitive build that you possibly can... you aren't going to have much fun with Age of Sigmar. You can be strict on competitiveness or strict on aesthetics/narrative but not both (unless you are very lucky). Usually you have to give a little in one direction or the other, and I think BoC actually does the best job of allowing this kind of flexibility of really any battletome out there.