AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[jkav86]

3 hours ago, Pandamina said:

This is how i assembled mine:
paired blades x3
greatblade x2
mutant x2
musician with greatblade
champion with greatblade
iconbearer with shield
 

Sounds like a plan! I want to make up a unit of thirty so I'll use this to help me

[Pandamina]

1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

So GW is asking for feedback for GHB 2019. Here's my view:

• Gors - I'm not sure Gors would be taken even at 70/180 pts.  Given their base size and stats, and compared to Marauders, I believe they would be justified as a 60/160 pt unit. That might be a bit agressive and 70/180 might be enough. 
• Minotaurs - Glass hammer is tough to value, but I am not sure they are better value than Bestigors. 140 pts base, plus they should have a horde discount.
• Bestigors - Probably too cheap at min sized, but I'm not sure they're underpriced at horde size (due to the number of buffs that require the unit to be wholly within range) - 140/300 is probably fair
• Tzaangors - Good at min size. Given the nerf to large units, and the  fact that their buffs are now "wholly within", need a bigger horde discount 180/400. 
• Skyfires - Should be 160 pts
• Enlightened on foot - OK as is
• Enlightened on disc - Should be 160 pts
• Tzaangor shaman - no longer summons new units, so doesn't need the premium price. Should be 20 pts cheaper. 
• Warhounds - 60 pts base, plus should have a horde discount. 
• Chaos Spawn - 40 pts
• Jabberslythe - Needs to be cheaper
• Great bray shaman - probably actually worth 120 pts
• Chariots - 50 pts
• Brass Despoilers (190 p): Fair value
• Phantasmagoria of Fate (200 p): Weakest battalion  benefit because you want to take it in armies that already want lots of wizards, but flexible and includes good units. 120 pts
• Pestilent Throng (200 p): 150 pts would be fair. 
• Depraved Drove (150 p): Fair value. 
• Desolating Beastherd (150 p): Fair value
• Hungering Warherd (150 p): Inflexible and weak, should be cheap. 100 pts
• Marauding Brayherd (180 p): Huge unit tax, should be very cheap: 60 pts
• Thunderscorn Stormherd (190 p): Inflexible, but decent benefit. 120 pts

No way Gors would be same price as Ungors. Also people here seem to be satisfied with their performance as horde unit.

And as for the units i am familiar with: 

My first thought is that units in BoC and DoT books shouldn't cost the same amount, because DoT book is overall better suited for them. But i guess it would be too hard to balance.

Tzaangors are fine, but i don't think they are competitive enough. And I am not sure this is the matter of points here, as for example they have nice synergy with wizards in DoT book, but in BoC we don't have such options.

Tzaangor Shaman should be 20-40 pts cheaper.

Great Bray Shaman pts increase is unnecessary. 

Dragon Ogor Shaggot for me is a weird one, because most of the time he sits back and i don't really want to pay 180 pts for this. 

Enlightened are actually not that good of a unit to be nerfed imo, as they were nonexistent before BoC book. Also their value in BoC book is much lower than in DoT, as they can be restored to full unit with one spell here. 

Skyfires are still pretty good, but this is the unit i wish the point drop most. Even 20 pts drop would be great.

Chaos Spawn at 40 pts and 2 PC points would be a welcome.

Ungor Raiders are fine.

Phantasmagoria of Fate enables one drop army so i don't think it would be as cheap as 120 pts. 150-180 is my guess.

And we should pray for Ungors not to become 20 man MSU.

[decker_cky]

Forgot one thing: 

-Bestigors, Doombulls, and Dragon Ogres lose the reference to "Beasts of Chaos army" in their battleline rule (so just "Battleline if X is general"). The rule as written is fine for tzaangors. 

Also, I disagree on the difference in value of tzaangor stuff between tzeentch and beasts lists. Tzeentch has lost a lot of teeth and needs a way to get models into the army. There are almost no basic tzeentch buffs that impact tzaangors in tzeentch, aside from easier access to arcanite heroes. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by decker_cky

[Pandamina]

19 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

There are almost no basic tzeentch buffs that impact tzaangors in tzeentch, aside from easier access to arcanite heroes. 

There are two significant factors and i already mentioned them. Tzaangors' icons and Fold Reality. In BoC book there are also plenty of factors such as cheep Ungor screen for Enlightened or ambush ability. So i would like this things to be considered when prices are made. 

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Just want battle line Raiders.

[Myrdin]

Where can we leave that feedback ?

There are some units that require a bit of love.

Units that are not mentioned are fine from my perspective and well balanced for their cost and role in the army.

Beastlord - Drop the requirement for his Command Ability to kill a model before it can be used. Thats a really stupid one and is inconsistent, and 

Raiders - Should really be Battle line

Warhounds - Should really be Battle line, and slightly cheaper. 

Cockatrice - is a prime example of nice idea but bad design. 50% chance to hit to deal 1-6 damage is a no. Especially since it cant even fight in combat its Petrifying Gaze should be the main selling point. The price is not the issue. The usability is. Its extremely unreliable and the damage chart is to random. Either make the damage 2D3 or improve the Hit rate. Alternativel A reroll once every 2 turns for either the Hit or the Damage roll would make it much better (once per 2 turns to not make it too good). Or allow it to be taken in a flock of 1-3 so you can at least charge them

Jabberslythe - The Acid blood should activate on 2+ not 4+ since its been nerfed already to a single MW not D3 anymore. This by itself would fix a lot of its identity issues. Making its gimmick Aura of Madness is meh. I would like to see something else. Minus -1 Bravery to units within 12" and -D3 if in combat with Jabber itself would be much more interesting

Gors - should be 2A base making them viable in both MSU and hordes. All things considered they are just butt naked bestigors with smaller weapons. But the "type of beastmen" is the same. If we wanted to go really fancy, the Paired weapon option is garbage and should be the same as for Tzaangors as in: +1 to Hit if equipped with paired weapons. Would at least make you consider it when compared to taking a shield.

Enlightened - should be +20pts more for both mounted and dismounted so they are on par with Bestigors in price, since essentially they do the same thing albeit slightly different (yes I dont want only buffs, these guys are a steal at  100/140 pts)

Skyfires - should drop in price. -20pts minimum. Personally I would like to see a dissmounted version like with Enlightened as well, but thats just me.

Tzaangors - Slight decrease in price. 160 Would be about right

Tzaangor Shaman - Same thing. -20/-40 pts. Reasons were already stated. 

Bullgors - need something. If nothing else drop to 140 so they are on par with Dragon Ogors. Personally I think just the price drop is not enough, but it would be a good start. Maybe upp their Save to 4+ to make them stick around a little longer. Though honestly I`d say they could use +1 attack to their Weapon profiles (not the horns), to they really feel like the Hammer they were supposed to be.  They were always a hard hitting unit in the past, but currently they dont have that umpf anymore and are generally under-powered.  And the two handed weapons should be 2" range. Its a 3-4 meters tall bull monster, no way it has shorter reach than a dude with a mace.

Cygor - could use a little love. Something like +1 to hit for its Desecrated Boulder if it didnt move or the enemy unit being shot at didnt move. Alternatively dropping him to 160 might also work. (Though I`d rather it being more efficient than cheaper)

Now I have issues with the Greatfrays as well (mostly all of Allherd could use a revamp. Nothing horrible but adjustments to make it actually good. Darkwalkers - the Desolate shard should not be a single use item for such a miniscule effect it does.)

I will not get into the battalions, but some of them could use a little love, or price decreasing. 
Things that I have not mentioned are more or less fine from my perspective.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Myrdin

[Pangu]

2 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Where can we leave that feedback ?

There are some units that require a bit of love.

Units that are not mentioned are fine from my perspective and well balanced for their cost and role in the army.

Beastlord - Drop the requirement for his Command Ability to kill a model before it can be used. Thats a really stupid one and is inconsistent, and 

Raiders - Should really be Battle line

Warhounds - Should really be Battle line, and slightly cheaper. 

Cockatrice - is a prime example of nice idea but bad design. 50% chance to hit to deal 1-6 damage is a no. Especially since it cant even fight in combat its Petrifying Gaze should be the main selling point. The price is not the issue. The usability is. Its extremely unreliable and the damage chart is to random. Either make the damage 2D3 or improve the Hit rate. Alternativel A reroll once every 2 turns for either the Hit or the Damage roll would make it much better (once per 2 turns to not make it too good). Or allow it to be taken in a flock of 1-3 so you can at least charge them

Jabberslythe - The Acid blood should activate on 2+ not 4+ since its been nerfed already to a single MW not D3 anymore. This by itself would fix a lot of its identity issues. Making its gimmick Aura of Madness is meh. I would like to see something else. Minus -1 Bravery to units within 12" and -D3 if in combat with Jabber itself would be much more interesting

Gors - should be 2A base making them viable in both MSU and hordes. All things considered they are just butt naked bestigors with smaller weapons. But the "type of beastmen" is the same. If we wanted to go really fancy, the Paired weapon option is garbage and should be the same as for Tzaangors as in: +1 to Hit if equipped with paired weapons. Would at least make you consider it when compared to taking a shield.

Enlightened - should be +20pts more for both mounted and dismounted so they are on par with Bestigors in price, since essentially they do the same thing albeit slightly different (yes I dont want only buffs, these guys are a steal at  100/140 pts)

Skyfires - should drop in price. -20pts minimum. Personally I would like to see a dissmounted version like with Enlightened as well, but thats just me.

Tzaangors - Slight decrease in price. 160 Would be about right

Tzaangor Shaman - Same thing. -20/-40 pts. Reasons were already stated. 

Bullgors - need something. If nothing else drop to 140 so they are on par with Dragon Ogors. Personally I think just the price drop is not enough, but it would be a good start. Maybe upp their Save to 4+ to make them stick around a little longer. Though honestly I`d say they could use +1 attack to their Weapon profiles (not the horns), to they really feel like the Hammer they were supposed to be.  They were always a hard hitting unit in the past, but currently they dont have that umpf anymore and are generally under-powered. 

Cygor - could use a little love. Something like +1 to hit for its Desecrated Boulder if it didnt move or the enemy unit being shot at didnt move. Alternatively dropping him to 160 might also work. (Though I`d rather it being more efficient than cheaper)

Now I have issues with the Greatfrays as well (mostly all of Allherd could use a revamp. Nothing horrible but adjustments to make it actually good. Darkwalkers - the Desolate shard should not be a single use item for such a miniscule effect it does.)

I will not get into the battalions, but some of them could use a little love, or price decreasing. 
Things that I have not mentioned are more or less fine from my perspective.

Feedback can be left on the post on the Warhammer Community Facebook page. 

Regarding the feedback itself, they are only looking to reevaluate points costs. 

[kenshin620]

Yea the Feedback thing is for GHB2019. Thats basically 95% Point Changes and maybe 5% battlefield roles.

 

Actual Warscroll changes are probably not taken into consideration.

[decker_cky]

Yeah, points and to a lesser extent, battlefield rolls. 

I think Beasts of chaos battlefield rolls could stand to be loosened up to make the marked battalions out of faction actually function. 

I think non-battleline ungor raiders was clearly a conscious decision by the design team (to say nothing of the fact that they remain quite popular despite not being battleline). 

If I were focusing on 7 changes that would better balance the core of the book, they would be:

• Gors to 70/180
• Bestigors to 130/300
• Bullgors to 130/450
• Chariots to 50/180
• Warhounds to 60/150
• Enlightened on Disc to 160 pts
• Skyfires to 160 pts

GW doesn't want to use the odd points for some reason, but these changes would open up a lot of list building space without pushing units to too cheap or expensive. 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by decker_cky

[Oldshrimpeyes]

Apologies if this has been asked before. 

Regarding the Depraved Drove. If I run this in a Slaanesh army and use the Fallacious Gift, will the target of the gift qualify as bearing an artefact and thus be fair game for this battallion ability?

[SwampHeart]

3 hours ago, Oldshrimpeyes said:

Apologies if this has been asked before. 

Regarding the Depraved Drove. If I run this in a Slaanesh army and use the Fallacious Gift, will the target of the gift qualify as bearing an artefact and thus be fair game for this battallion ability?

EDIT - Not sure, re-read the specific rules and I don't know that I have a solid answer.

Edited November 16, 2018 by SwampHeart

[Amradiel]

I'm looking for a fun and rather competitive build at 1000 points. I guess that two start collecting boxes is where I will start. But then what?  

[Skreech Verminking]

37 minutes ago, Amradiel said:

I'm looking for a fun and rather competitive build at 1000 points. I guess that two start collecting boxes is where I will start. But then what?  

Enlightenment maybe?

they seem to be a very good unit 

[decker_cky]

Herdstone is obviously your first purchase.

 

Two start collectings makes a list something like this: 

Allegiance: Beasts Of Chaos
Great Bray Shaman (100)
Great Bray Shaman (100)
20 x Ungors (120)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
Ghorgon (200)
Ghorgon (200)

Total: 960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 20
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 78
 

There's some options (split ungors, raiders, cygors over ghorgons), but you're right in the range. Not sure whats most competitive - at 1000 pts, the chief concern is being able to spread over objectives in my experience. 

 

If you like the tzeentch stuff and can find it, the arcanite changecult would allow for this:

Allegiance: Beasts Of Chaos
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
10 x Tzaangors (180)
10 x Tzaangors (180)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)

Total: 820 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 23
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 70
 

Probably want to fill out with a second shaman.

 

In any list, beasts of chaos have the issue that you will want to have extra stuff for summoning. You don't need the whole list. Here's some good suggestions:

-If you're playing gavespawn, you definitely want some spawn for summoning

-ungors are great for cheap bodies to summon on an objective

-raiders are same as ungors, but with shooting so they can contribute to the battle immediately

-bestigors are great for summoning a hard hitter

[decker_cky]

Gorthor for the same price as a normal tuskgor chariot is a great deal - worth noting for those who haven't seen the model his tuskgors have different heads to the normal chariots, which can add a bit of variety. 

The other models are pretty pricey, but nice to have them available without fear of being recast. I'll definitely be filling out my pestigors with some extra commands (allow me to break them into units of 10), but they're basically the same price you could get them from ebay. 

[Magnus The Blue]

On 11/15/2018 at 8:14 AM, Myrdin said:

Beastlord - Drop the requirement for his Command Ability to kill a model before it can be used. Thats a really stupid one and is inconsistent,

I generally agree with people's suggestion, but can't get on board with this, Beastlord already has one of the strongest command abilities around. Load it up with a Volcanic Axe, chop a minor hero in half and 'hey preseto' you have rerolled hit and wound for half your army.  Sure it's situational, but wide radius re-roll bubbles are sooooo good.

[Myrdin]

2 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I generally agree with people's suggestion, but can't get on board with this, Beastlord already has one of the strongest command abilities around. Load it up with a Volcanic Axe, chop a minor hero in half and 'hey preseto' you have rerolled hit and wound for half your army.  Sure it's situational, but wide radius re-roll bubbles are sooooo good.

Personally I would much more prefer what Gorthor the Beastlord has for his command ability, that comes at no artifical cost.

Heck I would take a weaker version of what the BL has, without the "kill monster/hero for dual reroll", If I could use it anytime anywhere.

One thing this army heroes lack, is a viable use of CP. Other then the Doombull buffing himself, or some nearby minotaurs, there is nothing really to spend them on other then what the core rulebook has to offer. And other than DB or  Beastlord there is no other unit in this army that has any Command ability whatsoever (its a bit perplexing, sure Shaggoth and both Shamans are Wizards, and thus have their own unique spell, but that doesnt automatically mean they cant have a command ability as well. If anything one would expect Shaggoth having one.)

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

One thing this army heroes lack, is a viable use of CP. Other then the Doombull buffing himself, or some nearby minotaurs, there is nothing really to spend them on other then what the core rulebook has to offer. And other than DB or  Beastlord there is no other unit in this army that has any Command ability whatsoever

I've actually come around to really liking this. It means that I'm free to marshal my CP for the 3 main book abilities which are super useful. I don't mind spending 2 CP a turn for 2 6" runs because I know I'll still have CP for battle shock and that's my only other real need. At first it was frustrating because it doesn't feel great - not having this huge trigger that is a combo starter. But once I stepped back from it and realized that it really just helps move us more towards our primary competitive goal (aggressive, early game sustainable board control) I saw it as a strength. Its another element that I'm sure frustrates players who want BoC to kill and punch their way to victory but its actually a subtle strength that basically steers you towards winning with our army via stunting and stalling your way to victory. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by SwampHeart

[kenshin620]

Yea despite the lack of actual command ability on the Shaggoth, it seems that Ancient Beyond Knowing is a popular Trait for him purely for having enough CPs to reliably use the 3 commands.

(and you whiff your roll and only get 1! 😭)

[decker_cky]

Ability to cheat in a 6 for your run is a really powerful ability on an army with run and charge on most models. 

Inspiring presence is a powerful ability on a low bravery army. 

Reroll charges is huge when it matters.

But looking at doombulls and beastlords: Beastlords, when factoring in available magic weapons, are a better offensive pieces, and the command ability is great if you can trigger it (far too potent to be unconditional IMO). 

Doombulls aren't amazing in terms of stats per point, and their command ability is pretty  weak (it can be nice, but it doesn't fix the minotaur's weak stat, nor does it help trigger exploding attacks anymore). Nobody talks about it, but doombulls lost a bubble buff and gained a one unit buff. 

[SwampHeart]

24 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Yea despite the lack of actual command ability on the Shaggoth, it seems that Ancient Beyond Knowing is a popular Trait for him purely for having enough CPs to reliably use the 3 commands.

(and you whiff your roll and only get 1! 😭)

That's why you need the All Seeing Eye + a Battalion! Worst case scenario you start out with 3 CP and best case I'm sitting on a bank of 6. Sure I never use anything but the 3 book ones but when you've got that many you can spend them freely. 

[CarkFish]

Hi guys! .... looking at the getting started box .... would ungors be ok to proxy for gors .... happy to swap the bases, i just dont need ungors for the list im making

thanks chaps, appreciate your help

cark

[The_Yellow_Sign]

14 minutes ago, CarkFish said:

Hi guys! .... looking at the getting started box .... would ungors be ok to proxy for gors .... happy to swap the bases, i just dont need ungors for the list im making

thanks chaps, appreciate your help

cark

Ungors are much better than Gors at the moment though. What sort of list are you making?

[Myrdin]

5 hours ago, CarkFish said:

Hi guys! .... looking at the getting started box .... would ungors be ok to proxy for gors .... happy to swap the bases, i just dont need ungors for the list im making

thanks chaps, appreciate your help

cark

BoC has quite the plethora of viable lists. Maybe not all of them super tournament competitive, but in a regular semi competitive game there most of the stuff in various combinations is quite viable.

I have yet to play a game with the same identical list twice.

As for Ungors - the only thing excluding is the Brass Despoilers, but otherwise they are quite good objective campers and herdstone sacrifices. Plus in big enough numbers they can screen rather nicely for those whole two units in our army that have range 2" (because of course huge bull monsters with two handed weapons are 1" !...... *salt increasing*). Personally I would not proxy Ungors for Gors (one of the reasons is the fact that your are not proxing them with a third party models but the actual Ungor/Gor ones, which can cause some unnecessary confusion)

For Ungors I personally use the Frostgrave Gnolls, who are essentially filling out 90% of all my Ungors the last 10% are the actual ungors which came from the old battalion box back in the day. The Gnolls are nice simple sculpts with enough variaty in poses heads and weapons + they come in box of 20 for 20 bucks. Absolute steal ! They dont have horns, but add in a bit more variety being a different type of a beastmen.

[Skoll]

2 hours ago, Myrdin said:

BoC has quite the plethora of viable lists. Maybe not all of them super tournament competitive, but in a regular semi competitive game there most of the stuff in various combinations is quite viable.

I have yet to play a game with the same identical list twice.

As for Ungors - the only thing excluding is the Brass Despoilers, but otherwise they are quite good objective campers and herdstone sacrifices. Plus in big enough numbers they can screen rather nicely for those whole two units in our army that have range 2" (because of course huge bull monsters with two handed weapons are 1" !...... *salt increasing*). Personally I would not proxy Ungors for Gors (one of the reasons is the fact that your are not proxing them with a third party models but the actual Ungor/Gor ones, which can cause some unnecessary confusion)

For Ungors I personally use the Frostgrave Gnolls, who are essentially filling out 90% of all my Ungors the last 10% are the actual ungors which came from the old battalion box back in the day. The Gnolls are nice simple sculpts with enough variaty in poses heads and weapons + they come in box of 20 for 20 bucks. Absolute steal ! They dont have horns, but add in a bit more variety being a different type of a beastmen.

Arent frostgrave gnolls kinda large ?