AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Skreech Verminking]

36 minutes ago, Vastus said:

@Skreech Verminking are you implying that clanrats are not the perfect unit? Tsk tsk tsk...

Did I??

can’t remember.

 

(ever saw a unit of clanrats tear through a mawcrusher 1st turn? Greatest thing to have ever seen)

Edited November 1, 2018 by Skreech Verminking

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

One issue with maths many overlook is that many maths theory crafting is often done without buffs or bonuses applied. So some armies can appear very weak when units are compared like for like. In my view any serious study has to account for the fact that buffs, bonuses and such are going to have taken place so even if the unit is underpowered on its own, the consideration of buffs and bonuses should show that they are more durable and powerful.

This only reinforces how some units are "stand alone" and others rely on synergy for best performance. 

I'd argue almost all math/theory hammer that is worth looking at has taken this into account given that AoS is a game of synergy. Sure some people just do the math in a pure vacuum but most of the time you'll see a slate of samples including various combinations of the buffs available to the unit. I think people sometimes get wrapped up in thinking that people who analyze units, engage in math hammer, and the like either don't test what they're talking about or are somehow ignoring other more random elements of the game and that simply isn't true. Obviously math and theory aren't the only tools you use to develop and list and an opinion on an army/units but they are part of it. I know that I could roll all 1s one day and my opponent all 6s, but that isn't an excuse (for me) to fall back on emotional reasoning (such as man my opponent had a good run of saves, really wish I had rend -2 instead of one). I'm also not suggesting everyone needs to play this way - different strokes for different folks (as I've talked about many times). 

Theory hammer and math hammer are just another tool in your tool kit to help you make good unit evaluations and build stronger lists. If you love Bullgors and they work for then have at it - but the counter is this, don't expect me to take your small sample size of success with the unit and alter my own data on them. I use Bullgors as an example here since they've been discussed quite a bit for a few pages. Gors are also an interesting example of this, I had success with 30 Gors over Ungors but in my tests using Ungors they have performed better at the desired role. 

[Skreech Verminking]

I haven’t tried Ungors at all,

but Buffing up a 30beast unit’s of Gors with the reroll all to wound and reroll of 1sto hit,  made it able for me to dish out 30wounds in total.

for a 210p unit I find it very good at  first turn charge, killing as many models it can and then die as a screen for the greater good.

210p for that!!

totaly worth it 

[Worm]

How unit of 30 Gors put 30 wounds?

[Skreech Verminking]

Just now, Worm said:

How unit of 30 Gors put 30 wounds?

30gors have 60attacks in total.

give them the double hand weapons or take them in a brass despoiler baataillon,  they’ll have a chance of rerolling 1s to hit.

this would jusually consult in around 35hits going through.

those Gors now buffed with the wild rampage spell and they now can reroll all failed to wound rolls. 

This would give around 21damage which can be afflicted. (Wow I really must have rolled over average)

a unit of Gors is in my oppinion great against weaker units which only have like a 5+ 6+save.

But should you include a shaggoth and buff those Gors one more time up with a -1to the rend characteristic they can also do a rather good job against units with a 4+ save.

anything better and they will literally fail.

 

 

[Pandamina]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

30gors have 60attacks in total.

How did you get all Gors to combat? That's 30 32mm bases with 1" weapon.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Pandamina

[The_Yellow_Sign]

22 minutes ago, Pandamina said:

How did you get all Gors to combat? That's 30 32mm bases with 1" weapon.

Yeah in my experience even getting 15 guys with 32mm bases into combat is not guaranteed, depending on how spread out your opponent's unit is, and how well you roll to charge. I can't see 30 guys getting into combat in any realistic scenario. And Ungors with Spears will outdamage Gors for this reason: way more attacks.

[Pangu]

Taken from a raw stats perspective bullgors are a little overcosted. But, thats true of the majority of 50mm infantry units. They also have some of the least synergy in the book and an allegiance ability that does almost nothing for the unit. Unless bullgors fill a specific Need in your list or you really like their aesthetic they are generally a sub-optimal choice. That does not mean that Bullgors are unplayable or cant be part of a competitive list. (obviously, can we please stop being pedantic and require everyone to tag their posts with YMMV style statements).

Edited November 2, 2018 by Pangu

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Yeah in my experience even getting 15 guys with 32mm bases into combat is not guaranteed, depending on how spread out your opponent's unit is, and how well you roll to charge. I can't see 30 guys getting into combat in any realistic scenario. And Ungors with Spears will outdamage Gors for this reason: way more attacks.

I've always wondered just how much better things would be for 32mm base "horde" infantry if their range was an extra half inch (so range 1.5"). But then everyone on 32mm bases would probably benefit so it would make bestigors back on top.

The 1inch range is always weird to me with the 32mm bases, I know I mentioned that back in an old post but it's always on my mind. It's not like WFB 7th edition where you only had 1 rank attacks outside of spears and elves or 8th where everyone had 2 ranks. It's just weird units blessed with 25mm bases get 2 ranks while 32mm get 1, no matter the role (for example Free People Great Swords are on 25mm so they get 2 rank attacks).

[Skoll]

the weapon range choices seem bizarre at times. like enlightened having 2 inch range, but bullgor great axes having 1. oh well such is life

[angrycontra]

5 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I've always wondered just how much better things would be for 32mm base "horde" infantry if their range was an extra half inch (so range 1.5"). But then everyone on 32mm bases would probably benefit so it would make bestigors back on top.

The 1inch range is always weird to me with the 32mm bases, I know I mentioned that back in an old post but it's always on my mind. It's not like WFB 7th edition where you only had 1 rank attacks outside of spears and elves or 8th where everyone had 2 ranks. It's just weird units blessed with 25mm bases get 2 ranks while 32mm get 1, no matter the role (for example Free People Great Swords are on 25mm so they get 2 rank attacks).

In all honesty I still think GW did never intend for the whole "25mm get to attack from 2 ranks" to happen. I mean just compare bloodreavers to plague monks. Plague monks have better base for attacks than reavers but they also get 2 ranks worth of attacks, their damage potential is more than double of reavers' potential, yet they cost same amount. Now I'm not here to dispute the ruling but to me it feels like GW is too afraid to touch it in anyway. I'm pretty sure they've never officially addressed that rule in any way.

The argument I sometimes see is something along lines of "the units are balanced around that they can attack from 2 ranks with 1" attacks" which in all honesty is a bit of bulldung if you ask me. I don't think I've seen a single example of warscroll where it costs more points (as it should) for having same stats with smaller 25mm base as some other unit with 32mm bases. Just look at Gors vs ungors and you'll just know gw didn't care about base size whatsoever when they decided on points, stats etc.

With that said, like I said, I don't dispute it or ask people to play it any other way. I just personally hate the whole inch based attack range system and feel like it should've been addressed in some way when they made aos 2nd edition.

[Myrdin]

5 hours ago, Skoll said:

the weapon range choices seem bizarre at times. like enlightened having 2 inch range, but bullgor great axes having 1. oh well such is life

^

This..... 

[Skreech Verminking]

16 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I've always wondered just how much better things would be for 32mm base "horde" infantry if their range was an extra half inch (so range 1.5"). But then everyone on 32mm bases would probably benefit so it would make bestigors back on top.

The 1inch range is always weird to me with the 32mm bases, I know I mentioned that back in an old post but it's always on my mind. It's not like WFB 7th edition where you only had 1 rank attacks outside of spears and elves or 8th where everyone had 2 ranks. It's just weird units blessed with 25mm bases get 2 ranks while 32mm get 1, no matter the role (for example Free People Great Swords are on 25mm so they get 2 rank attacks).

Uips your fully right it’s not impossible just very hard to do.

also I might have forgotten to rebase my Gors to 32mm bases.

No wonder they did so well

[Skasian]

Is there any reason to play Gors of Ungors?

In the games I've played the 32 mm base is a real deal breaker for them considering you have to take them in 20+ models to be effective. Ungors just seem to outshine them being able to attack in 2 ranks and are cheaper too.

Seriously, in what way can you use Gors so they outperform Ungors? I have yet to work this out.

[Skreech Verminking]

3 minutes ago, Skasian said:

Is there any reason to play Gors of Ungors?

In the games I've played the 32 mm base is a real deal breaker for them considering you have to take them in 20+ models to be effective. Ungors just seem to outshine them being able to attack in 2 ranks and are cheaper too.

Seriously, in what way can you use Gors so they outperform Ungors? I have yet to work this out.

Well I play them because the just fit perfectly in my army.

also they look much more brutal and better than their counterpart ungors.

[SwampHeart]

14 minutes ago, Skasian said:

Is there any reason to play Gors of Ungors?

In the games I've played the 32 mm base is a real deal breaker for them considering you have to take them in 20+ models to be effective. Ungors just seem to outshine them being able to attack in 2 ranks and are cheaper too.

Seriously, in what way can you use Gors so they outperform Ungors? I have yet to work this out.

I was using Gors for awhile to some effect but only ever as a tarpit unit (they aren't an effective damage dealing unit at all). That said I've recently swapped to a unit for 40 Ungors and instead and for the same job they're better. The one weird edge case where I think Gors do better is actually because of their 32mm base - because its larger than 1" you get a slightly larger buffer for keeping your opponent away from an objective but again that's a pretty niche use of the unit. As far as damage dealt - the gors and ungors feel similar to me but the ungors are more durable thanks to the increased body count. 

[Popisdead]

On 10/31/2018 at 9:33 AM, Skoll said:

I only take 6 bullgors for stacking buffs on them and contacting multiple units at once, the hope being they break more than their points worth even if they die to a man.

I was reminded it was Wrathmongers I would want in as well.  3 drop army but they're worth it.

[Popisdead]

On 10/31/2018 at 3:14 PM, Agent of Chaos said:

I get what you're saying however the whole point of the list is to get as many khorne based buffs in to take advantage of the brass despoilers battalion. If you strip all of the khorne heroes out of there its pointless and becomes a totally different list. 

Besides I can't drop the blood warriors as they are required in the gore pilgrims battalion. The Bloodstoker is there to boost the Bullgors otherwise average movement and ensure they get the charge. The battalion benefit extends beyond +1A on 9 Bullgors as it also ignores battleshock and forces the opponent to reroll successfull casts. The Slaughterpriests are their to provide +1 to hit for the bullgors and dropping down to 2 or even 1 priest vastly reduces the reliability of getting the hit bonus off, at which point you may as well not bother with any khorne heroes and just stick with BOC allegiance. 

I meant drop to 5.

Also you don't want to really be pushing hugely on an alpha charge, second turn is the BoC way.

I'm just trying to present a view of the BoC side, and less the Khorne side?

[Myrdin]

I used a block of 30 in one of my games. Called them the "party goats" and pushed them in and out of my opponents striking range, taunting him with their sheer blob. Add one or two little mindtricks, and he was really scared to engage them.

At one point these tu*ds charged his hero (some SCE caster who drop explosive potions or something), he dealt 3 damage to himself via the potions. The tur... I mean Gors. were UNABLE to chip even a single wound of him.

But by that point 80% of his army was dead via ambushing Gorghon + Dragon Ogers on one side, and 6 man unit of Bullgors and a DB coming from ambush on the other. Given one more turn it would result in a total wipe.

Granted this was mostly my doing. "Playing the player" so to say, and boistering the Gors presence for more than what they were - a distraction. A more seasoned opponent would not fall for that. Gor in this book currently as they are, are weak. Its not a horrible thing, it just means the balance didnt work in their favour and they got the short end of the stick (just like the Hounds did). All they really need is a little touch up (2A base is pretty much it. If they really wanna spice it up, make the Dual weapons be +1 to Hit instead of rerolling ones) for them to be a internally competitive option (they compete against both Ungors and Bestigors, and thats a really ****** place to be).

Just accept it for what it is, and move on. No need to fret about it. Lets hope for a better version next time we get an update. (Just like Hounds... I really wish they gave them some nice gimmick. Like +1 to Hit, if the enemy units is already engaged in combat with another friendly unit. Call it "Pack Hunters", is fluffy enough and would make the hounds an interesting flanker unit.)

If you want a cool looking unit, in a friendly casual game where you know your opponent tries silly stuff as well, bring them.

***

I already tried 40 Ambushing Ungor Raiders and the Brayblast trumpet, Kinda fun, but very hard to fit in 40 when coming from ambush, 9 dudes were out of the Shortbow range. Granted I did put 10 Bestigors as buffer in front of them.

Will be trying a unit of 40 spear Ungors in our next local mini tournament as a meatshield while while Chimera, allied Khorne Demon Prince, and msu bestigors will be the one to bring the pain.  I think they might be very interesting. Especially if I can get the Marauding Beastherd to proc. Well we´ll see how things pan out.

[kenshin620]

Pestigors are gonna be back temporarily for Made to Order!  Alongside other models like the BSB and Gorthor.

[peasant]

37 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Pestigors are gonna be back temporarily for Made to Order!  Alongside other models like the BSB and Gorthor.

will be finecast or metal?

[cash4u]

Gorthor was only plastic (wheels, pig bodies) + metal I believe, never Finecast. Could be wrong though.

[SwampHeart]

5 hours ago, peasant said:

will be finecast or metal?

Whatever the most recent medium it was released in which should be all metal for the aforementioned models. 

[markymarkka]

14 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Will be trying a unit of 40 spear Ungors in our next local mini tournament as a meatshield while while Chimera, allied Khorne Demon Prince, and msu bestigors will be the one to bring the pain.  I think they might be very interesting. Especially if I can get the Marauding Beastherd to proc. Well we´ll see how things pan out.

Is it legal to ally a Khorne Demon Prince? I thought the only legal ally was Slaves to Darkness or something.

[Skreech Verminking]

44 minutes ago, markymarkka said:

Is it legal to ally a Khorne Demon Prince? I thought the only legal ally was Slaves to Darkness or something.

Khorne daemon princes or better said the normal daemon prince is given the slave to darkness keyword

can be found in the grand chaos faq.

edit: or on the warscroll by keywords in the app 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Skreech Verminking