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AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion


Gaz Taylor

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3 minutes ago, peasant said:

Hi! Let me introduce My First gor. I hope Been Around a Long Time if You Accept me in The Herd.

 

One Doubt, what desolating beastherd Does?

Thanks!

Welcome!

 

Members of the desolating beastherd do 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit against enemy units in the enemy territory.  

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15 hours ago, decker_cky said:

No need to turn it into a single number - pretty easy to draw up charts and compare the ideal targets, etc..

I've calculated tzaangors vs bestigors, looking at the number of points to cause a wound. I've used 120 pts for 10 bestigors, and 180 pts for a unit of tzaangors (champ with GW, 3 other GW, 2 mutants, remainder AHW). Given the above, the under 9 values are obviously an abstract number (still calculate for the same 10 models). 

Tzaangors 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+
No shaman, under 9 56.02305 38.8024 29.67939 24.02967
Shaman, under 9 41.09937 28.44184 21.74497 17.60072
No shaman, 9+ 32.50836 22.65734 17.38819 14.1074
Shaman, 9+ 23.76528 16.54468 12.6893 10.29116

----------

Bestigors 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+
Non-order, non-charge, <10 34.28571 25.71429 20.57143 17.14286
Order, non-charge, <10 29.38776 22.04082 17.63265 14.69388
Non-order, charge, <10 23.22581 17.41935 13.93548 11.6129
Order, charge, <10 19.90783 14.93088 11.9447 9.953917
Non-order, non-charge, +10 25.71429 19.28571 15.42857 12.85714
Order, non-charge, +10 22.04082 16.53061 13.22449 11.02041
Non-order, charge, +10 17.41935 13.06452 10.45161 8.709677
Order, charge, +10 14.93088 11.19816 8.958525 7.465438

 

Essentially - against 10+ model units or when charging, bestigors are more offensively efficient than tzaangors. 

If your opponent is able to reduce tzaangors below 9 models, they aren't in the same conversation.

Defensively, bestigors are actually equally resilient against non-rend attacks, but are progressively less efficient the higher the quality attacks. 

Of course there isn't a *need* to turn it into a single number. It's about saving time while still arriving at a useful number. I don't have a spreadsheet set up so I do all of my calculations manually. Doing separate math for each possible save would take a lot longer, but I'm glad to have the information now that you've provided it! 

I'm also happy to see that your numbers tell pretty much the same story that mine do. If you aren't taking a Tzaangor Shaman, then Bestigors are indeed better when charging or against 10+ models, and they are quite a bit better when charging against 10+ models. With a Tzaangor Shaman, the Tzaangors are a bit better than charging Bestigors or Bestigors vs. 10+ models, but worse than Bestigors with both bonuses. On the other hand, Bestigors with neither bonus are quite a lot worse than Tzaangors (as long as they have 9+ models, a shaman or both). And like you said, Tzaangors with <9 models are incredibly worse than Bestigors.

My overall conclusion is that both Tzaangors and Bestigors have a tactical value. Bestigors are great if you can reliably exert control over what they are fighting against, but are vulnerable to certain kinds of opponents (fast, hard hitting monsters in particular, I think.) Tzaangors, on the other hand, are a lot less volatile as long as you bring enough bodies.

In a 10 model unit, I think it's no contest -- Bestigors all the way. In larger units, I see a clear role for Tzaangors. I think Bestigors make for good ambushers as this will allow you to have greater control over what they are facing off against. Tzaangors, on the other hand, are a great unit to deploy normally and hold your herdstone area. Moving from rend 0 to rend 1 is a bigger boost on average than moving from rend 1 to rend 2. All those dual weapon attacks and beak attacks effectively bumping up to rend 1 from the herdstone is great. You have less control what those Tzaangors will be facing off against, but you also don't really care as they are good against pretty much anything.

7 hours ago, Arkiham said:

that'll be why they nerf'd tzaangors then. 

gotta sell them models

I don't understand this sentiment at all. Basically all of my analysis indicates that Tzaangors and Bestigors are competitive choices. Tzaangors are the same as before below 9 models, better between 9 and 18 models, and worse at 18+ models. It's not a straightforward nerf. 

I also am not sure exactly what models GW is pushing here. All of the kits that Tzaangors might be out-competing under the old warscroll are way older kits than the Tzaangor kit. The stereotype is GW pushing newer kits to drive sales. Why would they want to make a new kit unattractive? 

I'm pretty sure GW is just as happy if you buy a box of Tzaangors vs. a box of Bestigors.

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2 hours ago, decker_cky said:

To swing this back on topic, I think there's a really interesting army available with big cheap blocks (ungors, raiders, gors) supported by smaller, fast hard hitters (min. bestigors, min. disc enlightened, ghorgons, etc..). 3 min bestigors to cover battleline is only 360 pts, and they hit hard enough to break the back of a lot of units (particularly if softened by raiders ahead of time). 

The list is fast enough to get your blocks onto objectives before your opponent, has enough bodies to hold objectives, and hits hard enough to threaten key targets.

 

edit - to make the conversation more tangible, something like this Gavespawn/Desolating Beastherd army:

 

10 Bestigors 120
10 Bestigors 120
10 Bestigors 120
30 Raiders 240
40 Ungors 200
30 Gors 210
Beastlord (mutating gnarlblade) 90
GBS 100
GBS 100
Ghorgon 220
Desolating beastherd 150
   
Shaggoth (general) 180
Beastlord (volcanic axe) 90
Chaos Spawn 50
  1990

 

I would personally take 40 Raiders; otherwise you lose a single one and your rerolls on 2's are gone, which greatly reduces their effectiveness.

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That gets into fiddling - I was more talking about the concept of 100 fast bodies for holding objectives combined  with  several fast hard hitting small hammer units that Beasts can bring to the table. 

Also, note that I since realized that bestigors are only battleline with a beastlord or GBS general, so that list would either have to switch the raiders to ungors (allows me to add another spawn) or swap general to one of the GBS (beastlords are meant to be suicide missiles). 

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3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I'm pretty sure GW is just as happy if you buy a box of Tzaangors vs. a box of Bestigors.

Plus, what if someone is still rocking with ye olde metal bestigors! They'd probably like it if you bought some tzaangors then!

Spoiler

c2005usp0300-01.jpg

 

 

But yea good to see that it's not like one is clearly superior to the other. It's all dependent on what else you're running.

Unlike say Evocators vs Paladins in SCE.

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Great thread!  I have been a Beastie player (yes, I know everyone says this..lolol) but I started playing the army back in WHFB 6th Edition.  I have played them exclusively ever since.  This is a really refreshing deliverable from GW, and I couldn't be happier.  As-a-side, I have a weekly web-cast called Grimdark Live!, and we did a side project called Take 1 from Grimdark Live! for the Beasts of Chaos released (published last Monday 9/10/18).  For anyone looking for a bit of the history of the Beasts of Chaos and where they came from leading into this deliverable!   Great thread, and I hope you enjoy the listen!

 

Link:  

 

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2 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

How do you guys usually arm your Ungors? Spears or blades? I'm planning to run a unit of 40 to keep the reroll bonuses going for at least a little while, so I figure that spears will be more useful since I can get more guys into combat.

I'm trying to decide between Gor and Ungor, myself, but I think the rule of thumb is spears for large blocks due to the weight of attacks.

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Depends - if you want the ungors to stand on their own, spears are really good (attack in 3 ranks since 25mm is under 1").  If you want the ungors to screen other units, and allow higher quality units to attack over the short ungor bases, I'd go with hand weapons. I don't think there's a huge difference between them in the long run.

Edited by decker_cky
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5 hours ago, decker_cky said:

Depends - if you want the ungors to stand on their own, spears are really good (attack in 3 ranks since 25mm is under 1").  If you want the ungors to screen other units, and allow higher quality units to attack over the short ungor bases, I'd go with hand weapons. I don't think there's a huge difference between them in the long run.

I really hope Warhounds become battleline. Will be a nice cheap battleline, but then again so are ungors.

actually, no I don’t. 

Edited by Dracothjay
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Couple of questions, since I haven't played AoS since last edition and am still trying to piece everything together. Do you get the allegiance traits (Thunderscorn, Warherd, Brayherd) just for having that keyword? I.E. do Dragon Ogors automatically get the free d6 move at the start of the turn? Or, do you have to have a warlord with that keyword, and then the army has it?

Secondly, are the other different herd allegiances worth it? It seems like sacrificing the artifact and warlord traits for the ones you MUST take for those allegiances is pretty harsh. I see some really enticing ones for Warherd and Thunderscorn especially. I like the Dark Walkers (think that's their name), but I hate their artifact. Thoughts?

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1 hour ago, Gildaheir said:

Couple of questions, since I haven't played AoS since last edition and am still trying to piece everything together. Do you get the allegiance traits (Thunderscorn, Warherd, Brayherd) just for having that keyword? I.E. do Dragon Ogors automatically get the free d6 move at the start of the turn? Or, do you have to have a warlord with that keyword, and then the army has it?

Secondly, are the other different herd allegiances worth it? It seems like sacrificing the artifact and warlord traits for the ones you MUST take for those allegiances is pretty harsh. I see some really enticing ones for Warherd and Thunderscorn especially. I like the Dark Walkers (think that's their name), but I hate their artifact. Thoughts?

Well that's a part of the trade off. You gain abilities for free, but the real cost is restrictions elsewhere.

It would be offset a bit if you take a battalion and so have access to a second artifact

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5 hours ago, peasant said:

Do You expect Anything to Get in preorder The 29th?

I Want Badly New chariots! But if They Got them They Surely had It shown weeks ago

Could always kitbash some chariots. Use the Chaos Chariot as a base and then rather than a horse pulling it have some Chaos Warhounds dragging it along. Add some Bestigor as crew and hey presto!

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3 minutes ago, TalesOfSigmar said:

Could always kitbash some chariots. Use the Chaos Chariot as a base and then rather than a horse pulling it have some Chaos Warhounds dragging it along. Add some Bestigor as crew and hey presto!

I think the chaos warrior chariot though looks a bit too high tech, full of plate armor and wotnot. The orc boar chariot might be a better fit, though it is quite old. If allowed 3rd party stuff, maybe the mantic chariots, they already come with boars that could just use some extra horns to make tuskgors.

 

25 minutes ago, Retro said:

Well that's a part of the trade off. You gain abilities for free, but the real cost is restrictions elsewhere.

It would be offset a bit if you take a battalion and so have access to a second artifact

Not to mention the usefulness (in theory) and inexpensiveness of Battalions makes it easier for BoC to choose a subfaction, in contrast to SCE who are already Points Strapped as is in addition to their Battalion power problem.

And the Hammers of Sigmar problem, but thats an issue involving special characters...

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I just bought changecult battleforce without acolytes and I wonder if you could help me with my BoC list. We play only 1000 pts games for now, so i don't want to buy huge army. 

Gavespawn
Tzaangor Shaman 180 (General)
Beastlord 90 (Artefact +2 Dmg)

Tzaangors 180
Ungors 60

Tzaangor Enlightened on foot 100
Tzaangor Skyfires 200 
Cygor 180
990
I'm planning to sacrifice some ungors to call more units like tzaangor enlightened on foot or chaos spawn. I love Cygor model, so i will buy it from new start collecting box.

 

Edited by Pandamina
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58 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

The most satisfying tuskgor chariot conversion now is imo an orc boar chariot updated with boar rider boars converted to be more chaotic, crewed by a plastic bestigor and ungor.

Yea some quick googling found me some of these pics
 

Spoiler

 

DSC01763.JPG

imgp1973.jpg

 

 

then theres one that interestingly used a HE chariot

Spoiler

011.jpg

And heres one that uses a corpse cart

Spoiler

IMG_1157.JPG

I think as long as it's a decently looking chariot with a Bestigor and Gor crew, anything goes!

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A few questions:

If your Gavespwn hero turns into a spawn, is it a Gavespawn spawn? 

Are summoned units able to have the Gavespawn keyword (or any greatbray keyword for that matter)? 

The wording on the great bray shaman 'Infuse with Bestial Vigour' stipulates that it affects 'units wholly within 12" of any friendly Great-Bray Shamans'.  Does this mean that the unit has to be wholly within range of a single shaman or that overlapping shamans can fully cover a unit that a single shaman might not be able to?

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