peasant Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 Hi! Let me introduce My First gor. I hope Been Around a Long Time if You Accept me in The Herd. One Doubt, what desolating beastherd Does? Thanks! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, peasant said: Hi! Let me introduce My First gor. I hope Been Around a Long Time if You Accept me in The Herd. One Doubt, what desolating beastherd Does? Thanks! Welcome! Members of the desolating beastherd do 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit against enemy units in the enemy territory. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 15 hours ago, decker_cky said: No need to turn it into a single number - pretty easy to draw up charts and compare the ideal targets, etc.. I've calculated tzaangors vs bestigors, looking at the number of points to cause a wound. I've used 120 pts for 10 bestigors, and 180 pts for a unit of tzaangors (champ with GW, 3 other GW, 2 mutants, remainder AHW). Given the above, the under 9 values are obviously an abstract number (still calculate for the same 10 models). Tzaangors 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+ No shaman, under 9 56.02305 38.8024 29.67939 24.02967 Shaman, under 9 41.09937 28.44184 21.74497 17.60072 No shaman, 9+ 32.50836 22.65734 17.38819 14.1074 Shaman, 9+ 23.76528 16.54468 12.6893 10.29116 ---------- Bestigors 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+ Non-order, non-charge, <10 34.28571 25.71429 20.57143 17.14286 Order, non-charge, <10 29.38776 22.04082 17.63265 14.69388 Non-order, charge, <10 23.22581 17.41935 13.93548 11.6129 Order, charge, <10 19.90783 14.93088 11.9447 9.953917 Non-order, non-charge, +10 25.71429 19.28571 15.42857 12.85714 Order, non-charge, +10 22.04082 16.53061 13.22449 11.02041 Non-order, charge, +10 17.41935 13.06452 10.45161 8.709677 Order, charge, +10 14.93088 11.19816 8.958525 7.465438 Essentially - against 10+ model units or when charging, bestigors are more offensively efficient than tzaangors. If your opponent is able to reduce tzaangors below 9 models, they aren't in the same conversation. Defensively, bestigors are actually equally resilient against non-rend attacks, but are progressively less efficient the higher the quality attacks. Of course there isn't a *need* to turn it into a single number. It's about saving time while still arriving at a useful number. I don't have a spreadsheet set up so I do all of my calculations manually. Doing separate math for each possible save would take a lot longer, but I'm glad to have the information now that you've provided it! I'm also happy to see that your numbers tell pretty much the same story that mine do. If you aren't taking a Tzaangor Shaman, then Bestigors are indeed better when charging or against 10+ models, and they are quite a bit better when charging against 10+ models. With a Tzaangor Shaman, the Tzaangors are a bit better than charging Bestigors or Bestigors vs. 10+ models, but worse than Bestigors with both bonuses. On the other hand, Bestigors with neither bonus are quite a lot worse than Tzaangors (as long as they have 9+ models, a shaman or both). And like you said, Tzaangors with <9 models are incredibly worse than Bestigors. My overall conclusion is that both Tzaangors and Bestigors have a tactical value. Bestigors are great if you can reliably exert control over what they are fighting against, but are vulnerable to certain kinds of opponents (fast, hard hitting monsters in particular, I think.) Tzaangors, on the other hand, are a lot less volatile as long as you bring enough bodies. In a 10 model unit, I think it's no contest -- Bestigors all the way. In larger units, I see a clear role for Tzaangors. I think Bestigors make for good ambushers as this will allow you to have greater control over what they are facing off against. Tzaangors, on the other hand, are a great unit to deploy normally and hold your herdstone area. Moving from rend 0 to rend 1 is a bigger boost on average than moving from rend 1 to rend 2. All those dual weapon attacks and beak attacks effectively bumping up to rend 1 from the herdstone is great. You have less control what those Tzaangors will be facing off against, but you also don't really care as they are good against pretty much anything. 7 hours ago, Arkiham said: that'll be why they nerf'd tzaangors then. gotta sell them models I don't understand this sentiment at all. Basically all of my analysis indicates that Tzaangors and Bestigors are competitive choices. Tzaangors are the same as before below 9 models, better between 9 and 18 models, and worse at 18+ models. It's not a straightforward nerf. I also am not sure exactly what models GW is pushing here. All of the kits that Tzaangors might be out-competing under the old warscroll are way older kits than the Tzaangor kit. The stereotype is GW pushing newer kits to drive sales. Why would they want to make a new kit unattractive? I'm pretty sure GW is just as happy if you buy a box of Tzaangors vs. a box of Bestigors. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Yellow_Sign Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 2 hours ago, decker_cky said: To swing this back on topic, I think there's a really interesting army available with big cheap blocks (ungors, raiders, gors) supported by smaller, fast hard hitters (min. bestigors, min. disc enlightened, ghorgons, etc..). 3 min bestigors to cover battleline is only 360 pts, and they hit hard enough to break the back of a lot of units (particularly if softened by raiders ahead of time). The list is fast enough to get your blocks onto objectives before your opponent, has enough bodies to hold objectives, and hits hard enough to threaten key targets. edit - to make the conversation more tangible, something like this Gavespawn/Desolating Beastherd army: 10 Bestigors 120 10 Bestigors 120 10 Bestigors 120 30 Raiders 240 40 Ungors 200 30 Gors 210 Beastlord (mutating gnarlblade) 90 GBS 100 GBS 100 Ghorgon 220 Desolating beastherd 150 Shaggoth (general) 180 Beastlord (volcanic axe) 90 Chaos Spawn 50 1990 I would personally take 40 Raiders; otherwise you lose a single one and your rerolls on 2's are gone, which greatly reduces their effectiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 That gets into fiddling - I was more talking about the concept of 100 fast bodies for holding objectives combined with several fast hard hitting small hammer units that Beasts can bring to the table. Also, note that I since realized that bestigors are only battleline with a beastlord or GBS general, so that list would either have to switch the raiders to ungors (allows me to add another spawn) or swap general to one of the GBS (beastlords are meant to be suicide missiles). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 3 hours ago, swarmofseals said: I'm pretty sure GW is just as happy if you buy a box of Tzaangors vs. a box of Bestigors. Plus, what if someone is still rocking with ye olde metal bestigors! They'd probably like it if you bought some tzaangors then! Spoiler But yea good to see that it's not like one is clearly superior to the other. It's all dependent on what else you're running. Unlike say Evocators vs Paladins in SCE. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnoblar G Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Great thread! I have been a Beastie player (yes, I know everyone says this..lolol) but I started playing the army back in WHFB 6th Edition. I have played them exclusively ever since. This is a really refreshing deliverable from GW, and I couldn't be happier. As-a-side, I have a weekly web-cast called Grimdark Live!, and we did a side project called Take 1 from Grimdark Live! for the Beasts of Chaos released (published last Monday 9/10/18). For anyone looking for a bit of the history of the Beasts of Chaos and where they came from leading into this deliverable! Great thread, and I hope you enjoy the listen! Link: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Yellow_Sign Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) How do you guys usually arm your Ungors? Spears or blades? I'm planning to run a unit of 40 to keep the reroll bonuses going for at least a little while, so I figure that spears will be more useful since I can get more guys into combat. Edited September 18, 2018 by The_Yellow_Sign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharnelChimera Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said: How do you guys usually arm your Ungors? Spears or blades? I'm planning to run a unit of 40 to keep the reroll bonuses going for at least a little while, so I figure that spears will be more useful since I can get more guys into combat. I'm trying to decide between Gor and Ungor, myself, but I think the rule of thumb is spears for large blocks due to the weight of attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) Depends - if you want the ungors to stand on their own, spears are really good (attack in 3 ranks since 25mm is under 1"). If you want the ungors to screen other units, and allow higher quality units to attack over the short ungor bases, I'd go with hand weapons. I don't think there's a huge difference between them in the long run. Edited September 18, 2018 by decker_cky 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasant Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) Do You expect Anything to Get in preorder The 29th? I Want Badly New chariots! But if They Got them They Surely had It shown weeks ago Edited September 18, 2018 by peasant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracothjay Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, decker_cky said: Depends - if you want the ungors to stand on their own, spears are really good (attack in 3 ranks since 25mm is under 1"). If you want the ungors to screen other units, and allow higher quality units to attack over the short ungor bases, I'd go with hand weapons. I don't think there's a huge difference between them in the long run. I really hope Warhounds become battleline. Will be a nice cheap battleline, but then again so are ungors. actually, no I don’t. Edited September 18, 2018 by Dracothjay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 1 hour ago, peasant said: Do You expect Anything to Get in preorder The 29th? I Want Badly New chariots! But if They Got them They Surely had It shown weeks ago We've seen all there is. No new chariot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasant Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Charlo said: We've seen all there is. No new chariot. Ohh Sad News. Thanks Anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gildaheir Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Couple of questions, since I haven't played AoS since last edition and am still trying to piece everything together. Do you get the allegiance traits (Thunderscorn, Warherd, Brayherd) just for having that keyword? I.E. do Dragon Ogors automatically get the free d6 move at the start of the turn? Or, do you have to have a warlord with that keyword, and then the army has it? Secondly, are the other different herd allegiances worth it? It seems like sacrificing the artifact and warlord traits for the ones you MUST take for those allegiances is pretty harsh. I see some really enticing ones for Warherd and Thunderscorn especially. I like the Dark Walkers (think that's their name), but I hate their artifact. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satyrical Sophist Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 The Gavespawn look really good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Gildaheir said: Couple of questions, since I haven't played AoS since last edition and am still trying to piece everything together. Do you get the allegiance traits (Thunderscorn, Warherd, Brayherd) just for having that keyword? I.E. do Dragon Ogors automatically get the free d6 move at the start of the turn? Or, do you have to have a warlord with that keyword, and then the army has it? Secondly, are the other different herd allegiances worth it? It seems like sacrificing the artifact and warlord traits for the ones you MUST take for those allegiances is pretty harsh. I see some really enticing ones for Warherd and Thunderscorn especially. I like the Dark Walkers (think that's their name), but I hate their artifact. Thoughts? Well that's a part of the trade off. You gain abilities for free, but the real cost is restrictions elsewhere. It would be offset a bit if you take a battalion and so have access to a second artifact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Dark walkers, aside from the magic item, feels very strong. The unit teleport seems like a really neat ability that some smart players will abuse to great effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalesOfSigmar Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 5 hours ago, peasant said: Do You expect Anything to Get in preorder The 29th? I Want Badly New chariots! But if They Got them They Surely had It shown weeks ago Could always kitbash some chariots. Use the Chaos Chariot as a base and then rather than a horse pulling it have some Chaos Warhounds dragging it along. Add some Bestigor as crew and hey presto! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, TalesOfSigmar said: Could always kitbash some chariots. Use the Chaos Chariot as a base and then rather than a horse pulling it have some Chaos Warhounds dragging it along. Add some Bestigor as crew and hey presto! I think the chaos warrior chariot though looks a bit too high tech, full of plate armor and wotnot. The orc boar chariot might be a better fit, though it is quite old. If allowed 3rd party stuff, maybe the mantic chariots, they already come with boars that could just use some extra horns to make tuskgors. 25 minutes ago, Retro said: Well that's a part of the trade off. You gain abilities for free, but the real cost is restrictions elsewhere. It would be offset a bit if you take a battalion and so have access to a second artifact Not to mention the usefulness (in theory) and inexpensiveness of Battalions makes it easier for BoC to choose a subfaction, in contrast to SCE who are already Points Strapped as is in addition to their Battalion power problem. And the Hammers of Sigmar problem, but thats an issue involving special characters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 The most satisfying tuskgor chariot conversion now is imo an orc boar chariot updated with boar rider boars converted to be more chaotic, crewed by a plastic bestigor and ungor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandamina Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) I just bought changecult battleforce without acolytes and I wonder if you could help me with my BoC list. We play only 1000 pts games for now, so i don't want to buy huge army. Gavespawn Tzaangor Shaman 180 (General) Beastlord 90 (Artefact +2 Dmg) Tzaangors 180 Ungors 60 Tzaangor Enlightened on foot 100 Tzaangor Skyfires 200 Cygor 180 990 I'm planning to sacrifice some ungors to call more units like tzaangor enlightened on foot or chaos spawn. I love Cygor model, so i will buy it from new start collecting box. Edited September 18, 2018 by Pandamina 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 58 minutes ago, decker_cky said: The most satisfying tuskgor chariot conversion now is imo an orc boar chariot updated with boar rider boars converted to be more chaotic, crewed by a plastic bestigor and ungor. Yea some quick googling found me some of these pics Spoiler then theres one that interestingly used a HE chariot Spoiler And heres one that uses a corpse cart Spoiler I think as long as it's a decently looking chariot with a Bestigor and Gor crew, anything goes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamtrunzo Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 A few questions: If your Gavespwn hero turns into a spawn, is it a Gavespawn spawn? Are summoned units able to have the Gavespawn keyword (or any greatbray keyword for that matter)? The wording on the great bray shaman 'Infuse with Bestial Vigour' stipulates that it affects 'units wholly within 12" of any friendly Great-Bray Shamans'. Does this mean that the unit has to be wholly within range of a single shaman or that overlapping shamans can fully cover a unit that a single shaman might not be able to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasant Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Wha do You preferido guys, chariots or razorgors? They are Very Cheap in Points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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