AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[decker_cky]

10 minutes ago, Dracothjay said:

A bit off current topic, but what do we think is the best way to run our bestigors? MSU or maxed out? I feel as their bases are bigger than most battleline stuff, units of 10 seem to be pretty efficient.

thoughts?

I don't think you can go wrong with bestigors. MSU is a cheap and potent heavy hitter, while hordes are super cheap at 300 pts. Small support units will likely be more popular, but I bet there will be some very successful armies taking 3 x 30 as battleline.

[kenshin620]

I think 30 horde is great with debuffs like Atrophy spell since you don't have to worry about everyone being wholly within a buff.

With the Beastlord, yup I think he's mediocre combat wise on his own, but he is basically a Magic Weapon delivery system with his 6 attacks. That and the cheapest Gavespawn spawn spawner.

[Agent of Chaos]

After a bit of theory crafting I am liking the look of this list;

Allegiance: Beasts Of Chaos
Doombull (120)
- General
- Trait: Rampant Juggernaut 
- Artefact: Cleaver of the Brass Bull 
Beastlord (90)
- Artefact: Brayblast Trumpet 
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Vicious Stranglethorns
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Wild Rampage
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Tendrils of Atrophy
3 x Bullgors (160)
- Pairs of Axes
3 x Bullgors (160)
- Great Axes
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
30 x Bestigors (300)
4 x Tuskgor Chariots (240)
40 x Ungor Raiders (320)
Desolating Beastherd (150)
Wildfire Taurus (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

The Beastlord would ambush with the chariots and raiders, giving me 40 shots at 3+ to hit, rerolling 1's & 2's. With the built-in reroll the chariots hopefully make their charge for 40 attacks at +1 to hit. The Battalion bonus should mean even more damage caused.

Meanwhile the Bestigors,  supported by the shamans, and Bullgors supported by the Doombull, hit them from the front in a classic pincer move.

One of the Shamans hangs back with the herdstone and sacrifices Ungor to hopefully summon a Gorgon by turn 3, turn 4 at the latest.

Very tempted to work cogs in there by dropping a chariot or maybe even the Beastlord and giving the brayblast trumpet to a shaman to ambush with. 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

2 minutes ago, Agent of Chaos said:

After a bit of theory crafting I am liking the look of this list;

Allegiance: Beasts Of Chaos
Doombull (120)
- General
- Trait: Rampant Juggernaut 
- Artefact: Cleaver of the Brass Bull 
Beastlord (90)
- Artefact: Brayblast Trumpet 
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Vicious Stranglethorns
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Wild Rampage
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Tendrils of Atrophy
3 x Bullgors (160)
- Pairs of Axes
3 x Bullgors (160)
- Great Axes
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
30 x Bestigors (300)
4 x Tuskgor Chariots (240)
40 x Ungor Raiders (320)
Desolating Beastherd (150)
Wildfire Taurus (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

The Beastlord would ambush with the chariots and raiders, giving me 40 shots at 3+ to hit, rerolling 1's & 2's. With the built-in reroll the chariots hopefully make their charge for 40 attacks at +1 to hit. The Battalion bonus should mean even more damage caused.

Meanwhile the Bestigors,  supported by the shamans, and Bullgors supported by the Doombull, hit them from the front in a classic pincer move.

One of the Shamans hangs back with the herdstone and sacrifices Ungor to hopefully summon a Gorgon by turn 3, turn 4 at the latest.

Very tempted to work cogs in there by dropping a chariot or maybe even the Beastlord and giving the brayblast trumpet to a shaman to ambush with. 

If you're focused on ambushing with melee units, Cogs is pretty much mandatory. Get a Tzaangor Shaman to make it more likely that your Cogs spell goes off, because a casting roll of 7+ has a 58.33...% chance unbuffed. 

[Agent of Chaos]

Cheers mate, good point on the casting bonus although not sure how to fit 240 points of Tzangoor shaman and cogs in. Also not a fan of Tzeentch stuff, normally a khorne player and those weird looking bird goats are not my cup of tea.

In some ways the chariot charge isn't essential, the raiders will hopefully do a bit of damage and if my opponent splits their force to deal with the ambushers then they have sort of done their job anyway. Besides the ambushers will still benefit from the battalion so even without the charge and trumpet bonus they should still cause trouble. 

I think it needs some playtesting...

[The_Yellow_Sign]

2 minutes ago, Agent of Chaos said:

Cheers mate, good point on the casting bonus although not sure how to fit 240 points of Tzangoor shaman and cogs in. Also not a fan of Tzeentch stuff, normally a khorne player and those weird looking bird goats are not my cup of tea.

In some ways the chariot charge isn't essential, the raiders will hopefully do a bit of damage and if my opponent splits their force to deal with the ambushers then they have sort of done their job anyway. Besides the ambushers will still benefit from the battalion so even without the charge and trumpet bonus they should still cause trouble. 

I think it needs some playtesting...

Yeah I kind of feel the same way. The Tzeentch disks and stuff are too ornate for my tastes. What I'm doing is just using the Malagor model for my Tzaangor Shaman. Works great since it means he gets to fly again like back in the old days, and he actually fits much better on a 40mm base  than a 32mm anyway. If you look at the picture of him in the battletome, GW actually stuck him on a 40mm as well.

[Agent of Chaos]

Thats a good way of getting around it. I suppose I don't actually have to use a Tzeentch model or even acknowledge his Tzeentchian beliefs as long as he gets the cast off. Still not sure what to drop to fit him and cogs in though.

I realise my list is trying to do a bit of everything (ambush/summon/mix bray & warherd, etc) without doing any of it particularly well. I see it as sort of a starter list to work out what style suits me best and then it might specialize from there. 

[Myrdin]

In my last 3 games I used two units of 20 Bestigors each.
 

Honestly, while good in both numbers and strength, points wise and intent wise that is the worst setup. While you get enough bodies to wither most shooting and still have a punch once combat is joined, its quite a big footprint, not horrible but big enough to cause some head scratching when it comes time for them to ambush.

Tomorrow I am running 3 units of 10, which is more aking to suicide squads, but honestly, its easier to deploy, move around and manage. And unlike in WFB/9thA in AoS you can MSU your Beast infantry to a great effect due to how combat works (I really love this aspect of AoS). Plus Bestigors got so good in this book. If you have spare points in a thematic list and dont know what else to add, take a unit of Bestigors.

You cant go wrong with Bestigors.

 

Now if only the normal Tzaangors werent so way overpriced, they might actually be of use. Would not pay for them more then 150 per 10. Just not worth it. Skyfires are also too expensive. Would love to see a non disc -40 pts "on foot" version (and a -20 pts decrease from those 200 in general).

Honestly as far as the Tzeentzch stuff goes, as much as I like them, other than Enlightened, who are good on foot, and amazing at discs, the rest is not that appealing.

 

Also: Decker, Hi ! Great to see you´re still around, after Herdstone went down

Edited October 12, 2018 by Myrdin

[Tasman]

17 hours ago, Frozenbeast said:

As far as I remember moonclans warboss has the same wording and that ability used to stack up until they decided it was too overpowered (rightfully), but yeah those CA that do not have a specific sentence stating you cannot, well you can stack them. It might very well come one day when they will specify it and possibly that is very soon but for now...enjoy!

And btw I think grammatically in english A and ANY have two different meanings limiting the second one to a single subject in a group selected randomly, while A is very a-specific just indicating one in a group but not limiting it to be the only one(hope what I just said is understandable?). 

Q: When the word ‘any’ is used in the criteria for an ability, how many times is that ability applied when the criteria for the ability are fulfilled? For example, if an ability said ‘Add 1 to hit rolls for models that are within 6" of any models with this ability’, would I add 1 to the hit rolls of a model that was within 6" of three models with the ability, or would I add 3 to the hit rolls?

A: The word ‘any’ is treated as being synonymous with ‘one or more’. In your example, this means that 1 would be added to the hit rolls, not 3.

 

You're free to play it any way you want, but you'll be wrong. The semantics on the wording of this stuff has been hacked apart on this forum forever. There's no reason to believe that the wording here has any different meaning than elsewhere. Enjoy it while you can, I guess.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Tasman

[Tasman]

12 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

After a bit of theory crafting I am liking the look of this list;

Allegiance: Beasts Of Chaos
Doombull (120)
- General
- Trait: Rampant Juggernaut 
- Artefact: Cleaver of the Brass Bull 
Beastlord (90)
- Artefact: Brayblast Trumpet 
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Vicious Stranglethorns
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Wild Rampage
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Tendrils of Atrophy
3 x Bullgors (160)
- Pairs of Axes
3 x Bullgors (160)
- Great Axes
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
30 x Bestigors (300)
4 x Tuskgor Chariots (240)
40 x Ungor Raiders (320)
Desolating Beastherd (150)
Wildfire Taurus (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

The Beastlord would ambush with the chariots and raiders, giving me 40 shots at 3+ to hit, rerolling 1's & 2's. With the built-in reroll the chariots hopefully make their charge for 40 attacks at +1 to hit. The Battalion bonus should mean even more damage caused.

Meanwhile the Bestigors,  supported by the shamans, and Bullgors supported by the Doombull, hit them from the front in a classic pincer move.

One of the Shamans hangs back with the herdstone and sacrifices Ungor to hopefully summon a Gorgon by turn 3, turn 4 at the latest.

Very tempted to work cogs in there by dropping a chariot or maybe even the Beastlord and giving the brayblast trumpet to a shaman to ambush with. 

Don't want to be a wet blanket here, but those units that you want to ambush with have HUGE foot-um- Hoofprints! Any player who understands the rudiments of deployment will definitely seal off his table edges to prevent this. A great idea, it's a little too situational for my taste. I'd think about halving the raiders,  and sending the chariots up the middle.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Tasman

[Pandamina]

5 hours ago, Myrdin said:

You cant go wrong with Bestigors.

Now if only the normal Tzaangors werent so way overpriced, they might actually be of use. Would not pay for them more then 150 per 10. Just not worth it. Skyfires are also too expensive. Would love to see a non disc -40 pts "on foot" version (and a -20 pts decrease from those 200 in general).

Honestly as far as the Tzeentzch stuff goes, as much as I like them, other than Enlightened, who are good on foot, and amazing at discs, the rest is not that appealing.

You absolutely can go wrong with Bestigors as well as with any other unit. They require successful charge to be good in combat and as already been mentioned in this thread they are susceptible to rend attacks. 

Tzaangors on the other hand are better vs rend attacks and less charge dependent. Also they are not overpriced and i'd say quite healthy priced, because if you compare them  with gors (10 tzaangors vs 20 gors for example) they are already much better. And at 150 they would be cheaper than 160 for gors.
Skyfires are indeed expensive and i would like to see them drop 20 pts, but they are still worth it, because of their unique range output and decent melee after.  "On foot" version IMO would be really bad, because it lacks rerollable attacks from disks.
And for the rest of Tzeench stuff we have Tzaangor Shaman, which is obviously the best caster in the book and can for sure cast cogs for the first turn ambush rosters with his reroll.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Pandamina

[Frozenbeast]

51 minutes ago, Tasman said:

You're free to play it any way you want, but you'll be wrong. The semantics on the wording of this stuff has been hacked apart on this forum forever. There's no reason to believe that the wording here has any different meaning than elsewhere. Enjoy it while you can, I guess.

 

I completely agree with you on the defi ition of ANY and I remember that FAQ too even if, again, just going with english grammar, that is the definition of ANY and idk why it needed an explanation in the first place. That said the Gavespawn CA talks of "...A (not ANY) friendly Gavespawn unit wholly within...". I remember when Slaughterer's call from the Doombull used to stack and before AoS 2.0 they FAQ'd it adding the limit to one time per unit; but that one too sais "... Pick A friendly Warherd wholly within..." so as much as I am waiting for it to be changed, as all the other CA worded like that have been, now it is legal to stack it, so I ll keep using it multiple times on the same unit. 

?

[Myrdin]

19 minutes ago, Pandamina said:

You absolutely can go wrong with Bestigors as well as with any other unit. They require successful charge to be good in combat and as already been mentioned in this thread they are susceptible to rend attacks. 

Tzaangors on the other hand are better vs rend attacks and less charge dependent. Also they are not overpriced and i'd say quite healthy priced, because if you compare them  with gors (10 tzaangors vs 20 gors for example) they are already much better. And at 150 they would be cheaper than 160 for gors.
Skyfires are indeed expensive and i would like to see them drop 20 pts, but they are still worth it, because of their unique range output and decent melee after.  "On foot" version IMO would be really bad, because it lacks rerollable attacks from disks.
And for the rest of Tzeench stuff we have Tzaangor Shaman, which is obviously the best caster in the book and can for sure cast cogs for the first turn ambush rosters with his reroll.

 

Yes... well comparing weak basic unit of Gors against an elite unit like Tzaangors doesnt really sound fair, does it ?

Tzaangors - even IF they were better then bestigors (right unit for the right job. They might be in some instances but Bestigors are much more universal), they themselves get completely Overshadowed by the Enlightened who are not only cheaper, but faster, and stronger. Less attacks yes, but all of those hurt much more due to it being Rend and Damage 2. Also they dont need a TzShaman to be effective, but if they have him they are fantastic. And again - I cant stress this enough - they are actually CHEAPER. If normal Tzaangors were 150 pts, I would not be arguing here. For 180 they need a lot justification to make it to the table

Bestigors are fine even if they dont get the charge of, but of course they shine in charge. And you are not getting anything better in that price range. Especially if you are tight on points as I mentioned.

Tzaangor shaman for 180 points... yeah you can keep him. Its a lock and chain unit, if you want to run a serious Tzaan-anything you need a Tzaan shaman for it to be truly effective yes I agree. But otherwise ? Thats a hefty price to pay for a caster who is way overpriced. Sure a mobile fast caster is nice, but since his special spell works only on Tzaangors, not Skyfires or Enlightened, its use is limited, even more so since it can not create new units anymore and only replenishes existing ones.

In a non TzaanX heavy list Id rather run a Shaggoth as my 180 pts caster who can also fight decently and has 10 wounds with possible healing from abylities.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Myrdin

[Pandamina]

32 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Yes because comparing weak basic unit of Gors against an elite unit like Tzaangors make absolute sense right ?

Bestigors are fine even if they dont get the charge of, but of course they shine in charge. And you are not getting anything better in that price range. Especially if you are tight on points as I mentioned.

I'm comparing pricewise, so i guess it makes a lot of sense. You don't really want your "weak" units to be abysmally worse than "elite" (which are also can be battleline), because people who like them (and i bet people here like gors) would not appreciate that.  

IMO enlightened on foot are better than bestigors right now. They are pretty close in small units and enlightened are better in medium and maxed units due to their 2" spear attack.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Pandamina

[angrycontra]

You know I find it kinda weird how almost none of the tzaangors vs bestigors or tzaangors vs enlightened arguments mention the fact that tzaangors have 2 wounds. For mere 60p (50%) price increase, they have twice the survivability of the bestigor unit (plus higher wound count means less chance to ****** bshock). For mere 40p, they have 8 more wounds than enlightened unit and 6++ save on top of that. Not to mention they also have mortal wound inflicting banner and larger body count than enlightened (which is useful for holding objectives). I'm not saying that they are better than bestigors or enlightened overall, but claiming that they're strictly worse than these units is a bit silly when it's more of a case of trading attack power for survivability.

[Pandamina]

55 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Tzaangors - even IF they were better then bestigors (right unit for the right job. They might be in some instances but Bestigors are much more universal), they themselves get completely Overshadowed by the Enlightened who are not only cheaper, but faster, and stronger. Less attacks yes, but all of those hurt much more due to it being Rend and Damage 2. Also they dont need a TzShaman to be effective, but if they have him they are fantastic. And again - I cant stress this enough - they are actually CHEAPER. If normal Tzaangors were 150 pts, I would not be arguing here. For 180 they need a lot justification to make it to the table

Tzaangors and Bestigors have already been compared several times in this thread and you can't really name the winner here. As i mentioned 150 pts for Tzaangors would be pretty unfair to other units in this great book.

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, angrycontra said:

You know I find it kinda weird how almost none of the tzaangors vs bestigors or tzaangors vs enlightened arguments mention the fact that tzaangors have 2 wounds. For mere 60p (50%) price increase, they have twice the survivability of the bestigor unit (plus higher wound count means less chance to ****** bshock). For mere 40p, they have 8 more wounds than enlightened unit and 6++ save on top of that. Not to mention they also have mortal wound inflicting banner and larger body count than enlightened (which is useful for holding objectives). I'm not saying that they are better than bestigors or enlightened overall, but claiming that they're strictly worse than these units is a bit silly when it's more of a case of trading attack power for survivability.

I've been having a lot of success with 20 Tzaangors (don't feel the need to max the unit now that the attack bonus is for 9+ rather than every 9) backed up by 6 Enlightened on Foot. They're a durable unit that has pretty solid offensive output and act as a great second 'wall' for my army. But I also run 30 Gors and 10 units of 10 Bestigors so I've got my toes dipped in both sides. 

[kenshin620]

Anyone know if theres been any new Social Media posts or emails regarding the God Mark Battalions yet? They sure are taking their sweet time with faqs/erratas.

Or are they waiting for a big core rule/multifaction faq/errata wave?

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, kenshin620 said:

Anyone know if theres been any new Social Media posts or emails regarding the God Mark Battalions yet? They sure are taking their sweet time with faqs/erratas.

Or are they waiting for a big core rule/multifaction faq/errata wave?

No the only update they just brought is the allies condition for every other marked Faction changed.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/age_of_sigmar_generals_handbook_errata_en.pdf

 

 

[Satyrical Sophist]

I've liked running Tzaango isr in 10s. They lose their bonus pretty easily (needs 4 wound though), but I feel like 2 units of 10 works out better than a unit of 20. I like having the extra banners and not having quite so much worry about battleshock. 

As for tzaangor vs bestigor, I thought the concensus was that both units are good choices, which Tzaangor being a bit more durable, but damage falling quicker and Bestigor having better optimal situations (on the charge, Vs big units) and worse fail states (getting charged, not Vs big units). I'm actually pretty impressed with GW on the BoC diversity and use cases. 

This is probably just wishful thinking, but has anyone tried pairing centigors with enlightened? I like the idea of giving the opponent's two opposing choices on which unit to target. If they hit the enlightened, then the centigors got drunk with no disadvantage, if they hit the centigors, the enlightened get to slap back full strength.

[Kevlar1972]

40 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

No the only update they just brought is the allies condition for every other marked Faction changed.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/age_of_sigmar_generals_handbook_errata_en.pdf

 

 

Awesome!   Now I can ally in a dragon ogre shaggoth with the Tail of Judgement into my blades of khorne army!  Before this I couldn't ally with thunderscorn.

[Ben]

Its awesome the that the 3 main combat units in the faction are all a viable, and tough to call, addition to the lists.  

I guess, there are lots of other options too, but the fact that these 3 are so close is great

[Ben]

 

The official FAQ and Errata for Battletome: Beasts of Chaos is now live, alongside a new General's Handbook errata that makes allying with Beasts of Chaos even easier! Download it here: http://bit.ly/2yxHE0L

QUICK LINKS: 
Battletome Beasts of Chaos Errata: http://bit.ly/2yxItXp
Battletome Beasts of Chaos Designer's Commentary: http://bit.ly/2yzUfQR
General's Handbook 2018 Errata: http://bit.ly/2yzhMS6
General's Handbook 2018 Designer's Commentary: http://bit.ly/2yILCUr

[SwampHeart]

On 10/11/2018 at 7:00 AM, Tasman said:

All of those were faqed at one time or another. You'll see this one as well when they get around to releasing it. The wording is clear, as in all other types of buffs.... the use of "A" or "ANY" means "One". Example: The GUO. He can add one attack to a unit of demons within range, but can't target the same unit twice with the same ability. He can, however, use it on another unit of demons along with spending another CP.

Looks like we can stack it. 

[bsharitt]

Glad to see the clarification of the god specific battalions being part of those particular armies. Figured that was the intent, but there were a few people arguing otherwise.  I've already got a box of Gors and Poxwalkers to smash together into pesigors and now I can buy enough for the whole battalion(I would have run some as allies in any case if the battalion wasn't in the army any way). Just too bad the giant isn't in that battalion. I guess my Nurgle giant will remain an ally in my Nurgle army.