AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Tasman]

5 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Thanks both of you for the reply !

Yeah I think I got the gist of it. My idea was to drop the whole battalion at the same time, in order to have less deployment then my opponent and as such get the +1 for the roll off, but I suppose that is not really feasible with army such as BoC as we just have the option to bring so much stuff that it would be more of a detriment than a boon, not to do so.

I guess I should give the rules a proper read through to solidify the rules I have learnt so far.

The way I learned the rules (not all of them of course) I joined a local mini tournament where we went 3 games one after another. A sink or swim situation you could say. Thankfully AoS 2 rules are so much easier than the old Warhammer Fantasy, or 9th Age, that I managed to and I really like the way combat is resolved. No more unit Initiative, but one roll for the players.

The way I  got into AoS, well I was interested before, because daaamn those DoK Melusai and Khirenai are some nice beastmen themed miniatures and at first I just wanted some of those for the collection, but then got interested in the game as well.  Begun collecting them to get a 2K points DoK army.... but then I found out the Beastmen are gonna get reworked as the "Beast of Chaos" and I was instantly hooked.

But I digress, sorry  

Yeah, the BoC have a lot to offer- many builds, many different looks for your opponent. A speedy, death dealing army no matter how you want to build it.

One thing though, there's no +1 for the roll off. The player who finishes deploying first decides who takes the first turn. It is a straight init roll after that.

Have fun and welcome back.

[Murder Pancake]

I have a modeling question that I was hoping fellow beast players could help me with.

When it comes to putting shields on Tzaangors, how do saving throws work if you're only putting say, two shields in a unit? 

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, Murder Pancake said:

I have a modeling question that I was hoping fellow beast players could help me with.

When it comes to putting shields on Tzaangors, how do saving throws work if you're only putting say, two shields in a unit? 

It says if ANY model is equipped so even if you only put 2 shields in a unit you get the 6+ save after save bonus for the unit. 

[Murder Pancake]

Thank you. I didn't realize that AoS was that relaxed with it. 

[SirPug]

On 10/9/2018 at 7:29 PM, decker_cky said:

Against things with no save, AHW bullgors cause slightly more damage than AHW dragon ogres, and GW bullgors cause the same amount of damage as AHW dragon ogres (AHW dragon ogres, along with draconic crusher dragon ogres, cause the most damage). 

Against things you are much more likely to see in the real world, bullgors cause much more damage. For example, against a 4+ save unit, a bullgors with GW causes 2.58 wounds per turn average, while the dragon ogre causes 1.58 wounds per turn. 

 

How about sword and board bulls vs crusher dragon ogors. They both have similar save in melee. Im thinking of taking 6 bulls with great axes and 3 with shields but im atarting to think dg's would be better than 3 shield bulls since they also have 4 save but 1 more wound.

Here in Finland quite a lot of people seem to have night haunt. Great axes wont be best against them but dang do i love the look of great axe bulls.

 

Also thanks for the reply to the first queston. 

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by SirPug

[sambaker31]

I have recently got the Beasts of Chaos book and that combined with this thread is proving very helpful for planning future purchases and tactics, so thanks all!

Just had a thought, as I love the Beastlord model and want to use one in my herd, but the warscroll isn't that great (especially when compared to the Doombull) - what are people's thoughts on putting the Sword of Judgement on a Beastlord? 6 chances for the d6 mortal wounds (rerolling 1's), and a much higher chance of getting the improved buff for nearby units from slaying a hero/monster, could be pretty sweet in game if you roll well, especially on a 90pt model! 

One question, I've had a look and can't seem to find anything on this so it may be obvious... but with the Sword of Judgement the wording about the attack sequence ending is vague - can you deal multiple d6 mortals depending on how many 6's you roll, and then continue with normal attacks that hit (e.g. I roll 4 hits, with 2 6's so deal 2d6 mortals + 2 normal hits that need to wound, roll armour saves etc)? Or is it as soon as one attack does d6 mortals the entire attack sequence ends? The rules say 'that attack...' and then the 'attack sequence', so I'm assuming it splits them into separate entities? Certainly a good combo if it's read this way, but may as well go volcanic axe if it's capped at just one d6 mortal wounds!

Lots of monsters (mostly order draconis) in my local games, so the thought of popping up from ambush and potentially dealing crazy mortals with lucky rolls is quite thematic and pretty awesome ?

[decker_cky]

2 hours ago, SirPug said:

 How about sword and board bulls vs crusher dragon ogors. They both have similar save in melee. Im thinking of taking 6 bulls with great axes and 3 with shields but im atarting to think dg's would be better than 3 shield bulls since they also have 4 save but 1 more wound.

Here in Finland quite a lot of people seem to have night haunt. Great axes wont be best against them but dang do i love the look of great axe bulls.

 

Also thanks for the reply to the first queston. 

 

Did the calculations for various saves, plus fixed 4+ and 5+ saves (Nighthaunt). The mortal wounds from the bullgors make a big difference there. Crushers do more damage against units with no save, and units with a 5+ fixed or 6+ fixed.

Something else to remember in this comparison is that I am comparing model to model - the bullgor champion is not factored in, which adds a high quality attack (and another shot at bloodgreed). 

 

Crusher Dragon Ogors: 

No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
2.666667	1.333333	1.777778	2.222222
0.5	0.25	0.333333	0.416667
3.166667	1.583333	2.111111	2.638889	1.583333	2.111111

 

Sword and board minotaurs

No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
2	1.333333	1.666667	2	1	1.333333
0.416667	0.416667	0.416667	0.416667	0.416667	0.416667
0.5	0.25	0.333333	0.416667	0.25	0.333333
2.916667	2.00	2.416667	2.833333	1.666667	2.083333

 

 

 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

19 minutes ago, sambaker31 said:

I have recently got the Beasts of Chaos book and that combined with this thread is proving very helpful for planning future purchases and tactics, so thanks all!

Just had a thought, as I love the Beastlord model and want to use one in my herd, but the warscroll isn't that great (especially when compared to the Doombull) - what are people's thoughts on putting the Sword of Judgement on a Beastlord? 6 chances for the d6 mortal wounds (rerolling 1's), and a much higher chance of getting the improved buff for nearby units from slaying a hero/monster, could be pretty sweet in game if you roll well, especially on a 90pt model! 

One question, I've had a look and can't seem to find anything on this so it may be obvious... but with the Sword of Judgement the wording about the attack sequence ending is vague - can you deal multiple d6 mortals depending on how many 6's you roll, and then continue with normal attacks that hit (e.g. I roll 4 hits, with 2 6's so deal 2d6 mortals + 2 normal hits that need to wound, roll armour saves etc)? Or is it as soon as one attack does d6 mortals the entire attack sequence ends? The rules say 'that attack...' and then the 'attack sequence', so I'm assuming it splits them into separate entities? Certainly a good combo if it's read this way, but may as well go volcanic axe if it's capped at just one d6 mortal wounds!

Lots of monsters (mostly order draconis) in my local games, so the thought of popping up from ambush and potentially dealing crazy mortals with lucky rolls is quite thematic and pretty awesome ?

The Gavespawn artefact Mutating Gnarlblade is also really good on a Beastlord, and possibly even better than the Sword of Judgement (I haven't done the maths on the latter yet). I one-shotted a 14 wound hero with Gnarlblade in one of my games.

[sambaker31]

7 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

The Gavespawn artefact Mutating Gnarlblade is also really good on a Beastlord, and possibly even better than the Sword of Judgement (I haven't done the maths on the latter yet). I one-shotted a 14 wound hero with Gnarlblade in one of my games.

Yeah that definitely stuck out as having a lot of potential - although I plan on running Darkwalkers most of the time (sorry, should have said above) so need to find ways to get similar levels of damage output on a hero who wouldn't be able to access it... Still 14 wounds in a single combat from one model is enough to maybe change my mind about the greatfray haha

[The_Yellow_Sign]

7 minutes ago, sambaker31 said:

Yeah that definitely stuck out as having a lot of potential - although I plan on running Darkwalkers most of the time (sorry, should have said above) so need to find ways to get similar levels of damage output on a hero who wouldn't be able to access it... Still 14 wounds in a single combat from one model is enough to maybe change my mind about the greatfray haha

Darkwalkers is definitely good as well, especially if you run a lot of Warherd. Bullgors are great for ambushing because of their charge bonus, and with  cogs they only need a 6 to get into combat. And the command ability is nice for teleporting a Chimera into a dangerous area.

Edited October 11, 2018 by The_Yellow_Sign

[decker_cky]

Calculations for attacks against a hero (so rerolling failed wounds). 

Gnarlblade
No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
10.66666667
1.777777778
12.44444444	8.296296	10.37037	12.44444	6.222222	8.296296

 

Volcanic Axe
No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
7.111111111	4.740741	5.925926	7.111111	3.555556	4.740741
1.185185185	0.790123	0.987654	1.185185	0.592593	0.790123
1	1	1	1	1	1
0.166666667	0.166667	0.166667	0.166667	0.166667	0.166667
9.462962963	6.697531	8.080247	9.462963	5.314815	6.697531

 

Sword of Judgment
No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
2.666666667	1.777778	2.222222	2.666667	1.333333	1.777778	1.185185
0.444444444	0.296296	0.37037	0.444444	0.222222	0.296296	0.148148
3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5
0.583333333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333
7.194444444	6.157407	6.675926	7.194444	5.638889	6.157407	5.416667

 

Gnarlblade is much better than either Sword of Judgment or Volcanic Axe (better against all targets).

Volcanic Axe is actually better than the sword of judgment unless you're against 3+ saves or unmodifiable saves (though these are close enough that its more a value call of spiking damage with the sword of judgment vs consistent damage of the volcanic axe). 

Without running the numbers, sword of judgment is obviously a distant third against non-hero non-monster targets. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by decker_cky

[The_Yellow_Sign]

4 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Calculations for attacks against a hero (so rerolling failed wounds). 

Gnarlblade
No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
10.66666667
1.777777778
12.44444444	8.296296	10.37037	12.44444	6.222222	8.296296

 

Volcanic Axe
No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
7.111111111	4.740741	5.925926	7.111111	3.555556	4.740741
1.185185185	0.790123	0.987654	1.185185	0.592593	0.790123
1	1	1	1	1	1
0.166666667	0.166667	0.166667	0.166667	0.166667	0.166667
9.462962963	6.697531	8.080247	9.462963	5.314815	6.697531

 

Sword of Judgment
No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
3.555555556	2.37037	2.962963	3.555556	1.777778	2.37037
0.592592593	0.395062	0.493827	0.592593	0.296296	0.395062
3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5
0.583333333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333
8.231481481	6.848765	7.540123	8.231481	6.157407	6.848765

 

Gnarlblade is much better than either Sword of Judgment or Volcanic Axe (better against all targets).

Volcanic Axe is actually better than the sword of judgment unless you're against 3+ saves or unmodifiable saves (though these are close enough that its more a value call of spiking damage with the sword of judgment vs consistent damage of the volcanic axe). 

Without running the numbers, sword of judgment is obviously a distant third against non-hero non-monster targets. 

Sorry, what does each row in your tables represent?

[Frozenbeast]

6 hours ago, SirPug said:

How about sword and board bulls vs crusher dragon ogors. They both have similar save in melee. Im thinking of taking 6 bulls with great axes and 3 with shields but im atarting to think dg's would be better than 3 shield bulls since they also have 4 save but 1 more wound.

Here in Finland quite a lot of people seem to have night haunt. Great axes wont be best against them but dang do i love the look of great axe bulls.

 

Also thanks for the reply to the first queston. 

 

So I personally think Nighyhaunt is a big topic in general as a lot of ppl are playing them atm. I assume that the reason why ppl prefers Gavespawn over other greayfreys or vanilla is because the only way to deal with nighthaunt atm is dashing out more attacks as on the big number even 50/50 chance of save is not enought especially if those wounds trigger multiple dmg. That said (and this is definetly not the only reason why ppl play gavespawn, just one of them), speaking of bullgors you might be right, in a meta full of Nighthaunt and unrendable VLoZD, the great axe definetly looses points although not in  favour of shield for sure imo, as BoC are vulnerable in any case and will die to many many things: also a dead opponent cannot deal dmg back. I see DHW be more effective than shield in trying to deal with nighthaunt as the rerolling 1s to hit gives you higher chances of having more dice to roll to trigger those MW. 

Ultimately if you use gavespawn CA multiple times on the GA bullgors the effect will anyway be a higher chance of both MW and more dmg due to the dmg 3 of the weapon themselves. So in any case is a win-win. 

[Tasman]

20 minutes ago, Frozenbeast said:

So I personally think Nighyhaunt is a big topic in general as a lot of ppl are playing them atm. I assume that the reason why ppl prefers Gavespawn over other greayfreys or vanilla is because the only way to deal with nighthaunt atm is dashing out more attacks as on the big number even 50/50 chance of save is not enought especially if those wounds trigger multiple dmg. That said (and this is definetly not the only reason why ppl play gavespawn, just one of them), speaking of bullgors you might be right, in a meta full of Nighthaunt and unrendable VLoZD, the great axe definetly looses points although not in  favour of shield for sure imo, as BoC are vulnerable in any case and will die to many many things: also a dead opponent cannot deal dmg back. I see DHW be more effective than shield in trying to deal with nighthaunt as the rerolling 1s to hit gives you higher chances of having more dice to roll to trigger those MW. 

Ultimately if you use gavespawn CA multiple times on the GA bullgors the effect will anyway be a higher chance of both MW and more dmg due to the dmg 3 of the weapon themselves. So in any case is a win-win. 

You can't use it multiple times on a single unit. You'd have to target a different unit. "A friendly unit wholly within 12" of A friendly chaos spawn". You could use this multiple times if you have multiple spawns and enough CPs though.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Tasman

[The_Yellow_Sign]

2 minutes ago, Tasman said:

You can't use it multiple times on a single unit. You'd have to target a different unit. "A friendly unit wholly within 12" of A friendly chaos spawn. You could do multiple units with multiple spawns and CPs though.

I don't see why you can't stack it multiple times on a single unit? Usually command abilities that can't be stacked explicitly say so.

[Tasman]

4 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

I don't see why you can't stack it multiple times on a single unit? Usually command abilities that can't be stacked explicitly say so.

All of those were faqed at one time or another. You'll see this one as well when they get around to releasing it. The wording is clear, as in all other types of buffs.... the use of "A" or "ANY" means "One". Example: The GUO. He can add one attack to a unit of demons within range, but can't target the same unit twice with the same ability. He can, however, use it on another unit of demons along with spending another CP.

[sambaker31]

5 hours ago, decker_cky said:

Calculations for attacks against a hero (so rerolling failed wounds). 

Gnarlblade
No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
10.66666667
1.777777778
12.44444444	8.296296	10.37037	12.44444	6.222222	8.296296

 

Volcanic Axe
No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
7.111111111	4.740741	5.925926	7.111111	3.555556	4.740741
1.185185185	0.790123	0.987654	1.185185	0.592593	0.790123
1	1	1	1	1	1
0.166666667	0.166667	0.166667	0.166667	0.166667	0.166667
9.462962963	6.697531	8.080247	9.462963	5.314815	6.697531

 

Sword of Judgment
No save	4+	5+	6+	4+ fixed	5+ fixed
3.555555556	2.37037	2.962963	3.555556	1.777778	2.37037
0.592592593	0.395062	0.493827	0.592593	0.296296	0.395062
3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5	3.5
0.583333333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333	0.583333
8.231481481	6.848765	7.540123	8.231481	6.157407	6.848765

 

Gnarlblade is much better than either Sword of Judgment or Volcanic Axe (better against all targets).

Volcanic Axe is actually better than the sword of judgment unless you're against 3+ saves or unmodifiable saves (though these are close enough that its more a value call of spiking damage with the sword of judgment vs consistent damage of the volcanic axe). 

Without running the numbers, sword of judgment is obviously a distant third against non-hero non-monster targets. 

Thank you for the math hammer @decker_cky - definitely agree the SoJ is bottom of the pile against non hero non monster targets, although given the effect against monsters/hero can result in mortal wound output, what provision does the above make in terms of targets not even taking a save if a 6 to hit is rolled... or is that factored in?

[SwampHeart]

8 hours ago, Murder Pancake said:

Thank you. I didn't realize that AoS was that relaxed with it. 

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. It really just depends on the unit and how its written - fortunately Tzaangors are written in a way that allows you to get the defensive bonus of the unit without giving up most of your offensive output. 

[Pandamina]

9 hours ago, SirPug said:

How about sword and board bulls vs crusher dragon ogors.

 

IMO you should also consider these units with their respective heroes, because i doubt someone would take ogors without shaggoth or bullgors without doombull as they provide significant bonuses to mentioned units in the form of command traits and artifacts (and in case of shaggoth also rerolls). So hero and 9 corresponding models will be 600 points each, and here i guess ogors would be better than bullgors. Otherwise i don't really see the point, because enlightened on disc are now better than both.

[decker_cky]

7 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Sorry, what does each row in your tables represent?

Each row is a different type of attack, bottom is a sum. Bottom one is what you care about.

For example, last two rows from Sword of Judgment are the multiple wounds triggered on the initial attack and on the rerolled 1's to hit. 

1 hour ago, sambaker31 said:

Thank you for the math hammer @decker_cky - definitely agree the SoJ is bottom of the pile against non hero non monster targets, although given the effect against monsters/hero can result in mortal wound output, what provision does the above make in terms of targets not even taking a save if a 6 to hit is rolled... or is that factored in?

It's factored in, see above.

 

I realised that I was being too generous to sword of judgment because I wasn't cutting off normal attack values when a 6 to hit was rolled. The sword of judgment is clearly worse against heroes and monsters unless they have a 3+ or better save or a 4+ or better fixed save.

[Frozenbeast]

5 hours ago, Tasman said:

All of those were faqed at one time or another. You'll see this one as well when they get around to releasing it. The wording is clear, as in all other types of buffs.... the use of "A" or "ANY" means "One". Example: The GUO. He can add one attack to a unit of demons within range, but can't target the same unit twice with the same ability. He can, however, use it on another unit of demons along with spending another CP.

As far as I remember moonclans warboss has the same wording and that ability used to stack up until they decided it was too overpowered (rightfully), but yeah those CA that do not have a specific sentence stating you cannot, well you can stack them. It might very well come one day when they will specify it and possibly that is very soon but for now...enjoy!

And btw I think grammatically in english A and ANY have two different meanings limiting the second one to a single subject in a group selected randomly, while A is very a-specific just indicating one in a group but not limiting it to be the only one(hope what I just said is understandable?). 

[Myrdin]

On 10/8/2018 at 4:56 PM, merzbau said:

Here’s a bit of a silly modeling question- how are folks keeping their Bestigors securely based? I’ve started on mine and found that, much like Chaos Spawn or the Daemon Prince model, their feet just aren’t flat at all. At least with those models the feet are large enough (and few enough!) that they’re an easy pin,, combined with just tilting the model forwards or backwards to get one foot flat (Spawn) or putting something under the raised foot (DP), but Bestigors are all standing on the inside rim of their hooves and it’s driving me nuts. Little blobs of green stuff + super glue?

I always file the hoofs of my Bestigors a little to flatten then when put on a base. Doesnt really show at all once glued and painted and works just fine. Its a bit finicky and annoying as you will have to do that for every leg on most of the models, but it works once done.

[Myrdin]

11 hours ago, sambaker31 said:

I have recently got the Beasts of Chaos book and that combined with this thread is proving very helpful for planning future purchases and tactics, so thanks all!

Just had a thought, as I love the Beastlord model and want to use one in my herd, but the warscroll isn't that great (especially when compared to the Doombull) - what are people's thoughts on putting the Sword of Judgement on a Beastlord? 6 chances for the d6 mortal wounds (rerolling 1's), and a much higher chance of getting the improved buff for nearby units from slaying a hero/monster, could be pretty sweet in game if you roll well, especially on a 90pt model! 

One question, I've had a look and can't seem to find anything on this so it may be obvious... but with the Sword of Judgement the wording about the attack sequence ending is vague - can you deal multiple d6 mortals depending on how many 6's you roll, and then continue with normal attacks that hit (e.g. I roll 4 hits, with 2 6's so deal 2d6 mortals + 2 normal hits that need to wound, roll armour saves etc)? Or is it as soon as one attack does d6 mortals the entire attack sequence ends? The rules say 'that attack...' and then the 'attack sequence', so I'm assuming it splits them into separate entities? Certainly a good combo if it's read this way, but may as well go volcanic axe if it's capped at just one d6 mortal wounds!

Lots of monsters (mostly order draconis) in my local games, so the thought of popping up from ambush and potentially dealing crazy mortals with lucky rolls is quite thematic and pretty awesome

I personally love the Beastlord, and want to have 4 different looking ones, but honestly the rules aint that great for them.

As for the Sword. Honestly Vulcanic Axe from Brayherd Artefacts is much better.

With the sword you roll badly on that D6 and you are done.

With the axe, any 6 is one mortal wound, and your normal attacks are all 2 Damage each.

As much as Beastlord is relatively Meh, Running two, one with Gavespawn Blade (re-rolling 1s helps you avoid getting murdered by the weapon though self harm), and one with the Axe, is quite scary thing, Especially for them being 90 pts each.

 

Damn... sorry for double post. I am still fuguring this board and how to multiquote. Seem I cant edit the former comment either once few minutes have passed.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Myrdin

[Dracothjay]

A bit off current topic, but what do we think is the best way to run our bestigors? MSU or maxed out? I feel as their bases are bigger than most battleline stuff, units of 10 seem to be pretty efficient.

thoughts?

[Dracothjay]

duplicate  post. Sorry.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Dracothjay