AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Tasman]

4 hours ago, scrollbuilderdude said:

Hey all,

Warscroll Builder has been updated with the Beasts of Chaos faction. Let me know if I missed anything!

Here is the first list I'll be running:

Allegiance: Beasts Of Chaos
- Greatfray: Darkwalkers
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Doombull (120)
- General
- Trait: Nomadic Leader 
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Titanic Fury
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Wild Rampage
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Artefact: Desolate Shard 
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Vicious Stranglethorns

Battleline
3 x Bullgors (160)
- Axes & Bullshields
3 x Bullgors (160)
- Axes & Bullshields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields

Units
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
1 x Tuskgor Chariots (60)
5 x Centigors (80)
5 x Centigors (80)

Behemoths
Chimera (240)

Battalions
Brass Despoilers (190)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2

... and some re-based Bestigors too!

Nice list. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Tasman

[Amradiel]

Well. I just looked through the book. There are sooo many things to choose from... I will have a really hard time building lists ?

Edited September 24, 2018 by Amradiel
Typo

[decker_cky]

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

In not fully convinced Bulls are straight up better then DragonO's. 

DragonsO's have 1" more move, 1 more wound, better save, mixed weapon unit, cheaper, and same access to spells and toys, and are 20pts cheaper

Is anyone saying Bulls are straight up better than Dragon Ogors? Dragon ogors are way faster (both base movement and D6" per turn) and are cheaper. Minotaurs hit harder, and have a bonus to charge which is relevant for ambushing. 

The unit that's arguably is straight up better than either bullgors or dragon ogors is bestigors. 

[Lucio]

14 hours ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

That's completely wrong. The Beasts of Chaos units don't have the KHORNE keyword on their warscroll and don't have the option to choose it. The Slaves to Darkness units have that option on their warscroll. The battalion that gives the KHORNE keyword to Beasts of Chaos units doesn't have the Khorne allegiance itself, but has the Beasts of Chaos allegiance instead. As Beasts of Chaos are currently no valid option als allies for Blades of Khorne your are not allowed at all to include the battalion in a Blades of Khorne army, not even as allies. Currently the battalion is only allowed in Beasts of Chaos, Everchosen (as allies) and Grand Alliance Chaos armies at the moment unless there will be a FAQ that says otherwise. All units in a battalion count as having the allegiance the battailion has regardless which keywords they have themselves.

See, I've seen the arguement, that they have the alleigance of the batallion but there's nothing saying you get only one alleigance on a unit.

Tzaangor get Tzeentch and Beasts of Chaos as an example

Also, unless I'm really blind, the quoted FAQ is no longer present? At least not in the AoS app FAQ document?

[kenshin620]

7 minutes ago, Lucio said:

See, I've seen the arguement, that they have the alleigance of the batallion but there's nothing saying you get only one alleigance on a unit.

Tzaangor get Tzeentch and Beasts of Chaos as an example

Also, unless I'm really blind, the quoted FAQ is no longer present? At least not in the AoS app FAQ document?

The problem is though is that there are no Battalions (currently) with 2 Allegiances.

Currently the Warcrolls section says "this section includes Beasts of Chaos warscrolls, warscroll battalions, endless spells, and scenery warscrolls."

RAW, all battalions are Beasts of Chaos only.

If the Battalion said "This Battalion is both Beasts of Chaos and [God Allegiance]" then there would be a lot less confusion. But the only phrase is "Units from this battalion gain the [God Allegiance] Keyword.

 

By no means am I saying they're not suppose to be used with God Allegiances. I am in the RAI camp, but we're all super nervous after Everchosen, Nigthhaunt, ahh heck even Clan Pestilens.

[Malakithe]

3 hours ago, Emicus said:

However don't do mortal wounds and don't self heal..?

The heal is situational at best. D3 heal for a unit wipe isnt going to do much unless your positioning is great and your opponent runs MSUs

Both will be good in a lost where your heavy with one or another while having other herd support

[Lucio]

37 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

The problem is though is that there are no Battalions (currently) with 2 Allegiances.

Currently the Warcrolls section says "this section includes Beasts of Chaos warscrolls, warscroll battalions, endless spells, and scenery warscrolls."

RAW, all battalions are Beasts of Chaos only.

If the Battalion said "This Battalion is both Beasts of Chaos and [God Allegiance]" then there would be a lot less confusion. But the only phrase is "Units from this battalion gain the [God Allegiance] Keyword.

 

By no means am I saying they're not suppose to be used with God Allegiances. I am in the RAI camp, but we're all super nervous after Everchosen, Nigthhaunt, ahh heck even Clan Pestilens.

Right, found the quoted FAQ in the Designer's Commentary.

It's specifically saying that Allies don't count as Allies if the Batallion is the same allegiance

 

However, here's the thing, as the models in the Batallion have the correct keyword, they're not allies, so that FAQ part doesn't apply

At best, rules as written, you can argue that the Batallion cost comes from your allies allowance, but the units in it? Well they've got the correct Keyword.

There may be a tiny grey area over the Allies matrix being out of date, but frankly, arguing that Brayherd != Beasts of Chaos because the faction got a rename is douchebaggery of the highest order.

[kenshin620]

7 minutes ago, Lucio said:

 

It's specifically saying that Allies don't count as Allies if the Batallion is the same allegiance

 

However, here's the thing, as the models in the Batallion have the correct keyword, they're not allies, so that FAQ part doesn't apply

At best, rules as written, you can argue that the Batallion cost comes from your allies allowance, but the units in it? Well they've got the correct Keyword.

 

If thats the case then why is everyone bellyaching over Everchosen Battalions?

GW specifically FAQed this

 

Quote

 

Q: Can the battalions in this book be used in Khorne, Nurgle,

Slaanesh or Tzeentch armies?

A: Yes, but the battalion and all of the units in it would

be allies.

 

 

 

and this

 

 

Quote

 

Q: If I include a Chainguard, Execution Horde, or Death

Stalkers warscroll battalion in a Legions of Nagash army, is the

battalion (and the units in it) an ally?

A: Yes.

 

 

The Nighthaunt example is a little on the odd side since there is no such thing as "Legions of Nagash" allegiance, but all the Souls War models can be taken in any of the legions as normal units.

And Everchosen Battalions are [God Allegiance] Mortal Hero + [God Allegiance] Mortal Units. Many people loved using Plaguedtouched and Bloodmarked back in 1.0 for Nurgle and Khorne respectively.

Edited September 24, 2018 by kenshin620

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

So is anyone else thinking of absurd ideas like like doombull and shaman hqs and then a ton of different ungors?

With either allherd or darkstalkers lol

[kenshin620]

52 minutes ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

So is anyone else thinking of absurd ideas like like doombull and shaman hqs and then a ton of different ungors?

With either allherd or darkstalkers lol

I think you'll have to go with Allherd with an ungor spam list, otherwise you're going to have a nasty time with battleshock! Until the Herdstone kicks in.

[decker_cky]

59 minutes ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

So is anyone else thinking of absurd ideas like like doombull and shaman hqs and then a ton of different ungors?

With either allherd or darkstalkers lol

Sounds like my 7th edition beastmen list!

I think you could get away with something like this (assuming you have appropriate movement tray), since you can supplement all those bodies with summoned hard hitters when it makes sense.

 

[Skreech Verminking]

10 hours ago, decker_cky said:

Is anyone saying Bulls are straight up better than Dragon Ogors? Dragon ogors are way faster (both base movement and D6" per turn) and are cheaper. Minotaurs hit harder, and have a bonus to charge which is relevant for ambushing. 

The unit that's arguably is straight up better than either bullgors or dragon ogors is bestigors. 

Yes, but from a different perspective Tzaangor enlightenment seem to be better the both of them.

they have the same cost like Dragonogres a 16inch move (with the cogs and the shaman this would be immediately improved to 21 (without running) and they hit much harder than any Bullgor units.

they can do in average 20-30wounds in the combat phase, which is really need.

 

[Entombet]

.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Entombet

[Entombet]

I'm thinking about this list, atm without artifacts and traits. Still not sure if i prefere bestigors as msu unit or 2x30.

Allegiance: Beasts Of Chaos
- Greatfray: Gavespawn
Beastlord (90)
- General
Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (180)
Great Bray Shaman (100)
Great Bray Shaman (100)
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
40 x Ungors (200)
- Shortspears & Half-Shields
40 x Ungors (200)
- Shortspears & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
1 x Tuskgor Chariots (60)
30 x Ungor Raiders (240)
Desolating Beastherd (150)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Doomblast Dirgehorn (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 191
 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Entombet

[Killax]

I like what's brewing. I've been out for a while, what do the Cogs do for Beast of Chaos that's so tasty?

[Skreech Verminking]

4 minutes ago, Killax said:

I like what's brewing. I've been out for a while, what do the Cogs do for Beast of Chaos that's so tasty?

Plus 2 movement and charging.

the other thing you can do with it is to cast an extra spell per wizard.

its cool but playing boc just means that you’ll be using the first Bonusses.

with the bray shaman every brayherd unit will get an additional 3inch movement, with the cogs that would be plus 5than.

since almost all brayherd Units can run and charge, you can also put another d6inches to your movement.

this would mean , that rolling high would reward your units with a 17-21inch movement.

the same goes for dragon ogres, if you have a shaggoth in your army, and give him the special artifact which allows all do. Units to run and charge as well.

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Skreech Verminking

[Kaleb Daark]

8 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

If thats the case then why is everyone bellyaching over Everchosen Battalions?

GW specifically FAQed this

 

 

 

and this

 

 

 

The Nighthaunt example is a little on the odd side since there is no such thing as "Legions of Nagash" allegiance, but all the Souls War models can be taken in any of the legions as normal units.

And Everchosen Battalions are [God Allegiance] Mortal Hero + [God Allegiance] Mortal Units. Many people loved using Plaguedtouched and Bloodmarked back in 1.0 for Nurgle and Khorne respectively.

If they are to be allies, the cheapest buy in is 520 points.   Not going to happen in a standard list, and therefore rending the battalion pointless in a beasts army as they have nothing to synergise with the keyword and cannot ally in anything to do the same other than a slaves hero or shrine.

I'm still of the mind that we're seeing something which is making no sense in the context we've been used to, but will make perfect sense with errata / faq and updates.

My cup half full side is saying that this allows beast to be used as part of a core go specific army  in the same way that Tzeentch got the precedent set with tzaangors and blue guy.

The nature of the ever living game is that  units and new models will come and not fit or integrate with the older book  - your chainrasp thing being an example.

However, it's plain to see it should work and be part of the obvious faction.   -   this is where the rules team etc need to get their back sides in gear.

Without these clarifications we end up where we were in warhammer fantasy where we waited years for the book to come out with the correct update in it.

[Duke of Gisoreux]

9 hours ago, Lucio said:

However, here's the thing, as the models in the Batallion have the correct keyword, they're not allies, so that FAQ part doesn't apply

Wrong. The keywords the models have don't matter. The only important thing is the allegiance the battalion has.

It's easy:

You choose to add a battalion to your army and check for the battalion's allegiance. There are three possible cases:

1 The battalion has the same allegiance than your army. You can take the battalion and the units within don't count as allies regardless what keywords they may have.

2 The battalion has a different allegiance than your army, but your army is allowed to ally with this allegiance. You can take the battalion but the battalion itself and all units within are counted as allies regardless what keywords they may have.

3 The battalion has a different allegiance than your army and your army isn't  allowed to ally with this allegiance. You can't take the battalion at all.

 

Looking at the battalions in the Beasts of Chaos Battletome then

1 is the case when you have a Beasts of Chaos or Grand Alliance Chaos army (as all battalions count as having the allegiance of their grand alliance).

2 is the case for Everchosen as they are allowed to ally with any Chaos faction.

3 is the case for all other armies.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Duke of Gisoreux

[Duke of Gisoreux]

17 hours ago, scrollbuilderdude said:

Let me know if I missed anything!

The Thunderscorn and Warherd allegiances are still in the Warscroll Builder but are no longer valid as they don't have Battlelines any more. You could remove them. Bullgors are no longer battleline for Warherd and Dragon Ogors are no longer battleline for Thunderscorn. Both are now only battleline for Beasts of Chaos when the appropriate general is selected.

[Dracothjay]

Here’s a 1K list I’ve come up with, mainly warherd as I love the models and the potential damage they can do.

DOOMBULL - general - rampant juggernaught 

GREAT BRAY SHAMAN - brayblast trumpet

6 bullgors - great axes

3 bullgors great axes

30 ungor raiders

doomblast dirgehorn

my plan is to ambush the 30 raiders (hopefully in range of the shamans 18” bubble from brayblast trumpet) and try and snipe key unit/hero. This will create a nice destraction for my bullgors to run up the field and smash face. 

I threw the dirgehorn in for damage mitigation as by turn 3 that’s 9” of -1 to hit from where it’s placed and hopefully my bullgors should be tucked away in the bubble

unsure of what extra spell to take for my shammy?

thoughts?

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Dracothjay

[ledha]

2 minutes ago, Dracothjay said:

Here’s a 1K list I’ve come up with, mainly warherd as I love the models and the potential damage they can do.

DOOMBULL - general - rampant juggernaught 

GREAT BRAY SHAMAN - brayblast trumpet

6 bullgors - great axes

3 bullgors great axes

30 ungor raiders

doomblast dirgehorn

my plan is to ambush the 30 raiders (hopefully in range of the shamans 18” bubble from brayblast trumpet) and try and snipe key unit/hero. This will create a nice destraction for my bullgors to run up the field and smash face. 

I threw the dirgehorn in for damage mitigation as by turn 3 that’s 9” of -1 to hit from where it’s placed and hopefully my bullgors should be tucked away in the bubble

unsure of what extra spell to take for my shammy?

thoughts?

 

 

The problem is that you need to stay in your territory at least one turn to capture some objectives (you can leave later), so your ungor would ambush the ennemy alone and there is some risk they are promptly killed before the bullgors come to help

[Amradiel]

Anyone going the Tzeentch direction?

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Amradiel said:

Anyone going the Tzeentch direction?

I’ll be probably going with Tzeentch enlightenment on disc as a shock troop for my army.

i find them rather amazing in close combat.

 

[Kokoshi]

1 hour ago, Amradiel said:

Anyone going the Tzeentch direction?

At 1000 pt, could be Something like that :

Allegiance: Beasts Of Chaos
- Greatfray: Gavespawn

LEADERS

Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- General
- Command Trait : Unravelling Aura
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds : Wild Rampage

Beastlord (90)
- Artefact : Mutating Gnarlblade

UNITS

10 x Tzaangors (180)
- 4 x Pair of Savage Blade
- 4 x Savage Greatblade
- 2 x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield

10 x Tzaangors (180)
- 4 x Pair of Savage Blade
- 4 x Savage Greatblade
- 2 x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield

3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)

3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)

1 x Chaos Spawn (50)
- Mark of Chaos : Tzeentch

TOTAL: 960/1000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0
WOUNDS: 80

[kenshin620]

3 hours ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

The Thunderscorn and Warherd allegiances are still in the Warscroll Builder but are no longer valid as they don't have Battlelines any more. You could remove them. Bullgors are no longer battleline for Warherd and Dragon Ogors are no longer battleline for Thunderscorn. Both are now only battleline for Beasts of Chaos when the appropriate general is selected.

Warscroll Builder doesn't really remove features.

I can still select things like Khorne Bloodbound or Tzeentch Arcanites!

 

5 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

 

I'm still of the mind that we're seeing something which is making no sense in the context we've been used to, but will make perfect sense with errata / faq and updates.

 

I agree, there are so many things that rule in favor of RAI it would seem strange not to.

1. There are NO BENEFITS to god marks within BoC itself.

2. They made so much emphasis on Marks coming back to beasts in previews and mentioned giving a detachment to other armies both on warhammer community and social media.

3. In matched play, it is completely infeasible to fit in these battalions as allies even at 3000pts. Which is really odd since GW have been pushing for rules that are compatible with Matched Play these days (like Summoning) as opposed to 1.0.

4. BoC cannot be taken as allies anyways.