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AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion


Gaz Taylor

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26 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Yes, I did include the extra beak attack. If Enlightened on foot are indeed 3 for 100 then they will probably have pretty similar efficiency to Enlightened on disc.  Their WDR with a Shaman but without Guided by the Past is about .125, so yeah that's nearly identical. Their points per wound is 11.11, so a tiny bit cheaper there. The problem is that they lose the incredible speed that the discs give, and I don't really see any advantage to compensate. The scenario that you describe doesn't really help trigger Guided By the Past. It's not that easy to pull off a charge in a formation like that. If your front line unit fails their charge, then your enlightened on foot are stuck. If your front line unit succeeds, then you still need to get the enlightened within .5" of the enemy unit for their charge to succeed. If you can manage that, then the enemy unit can reach your enlightened. They might not be able to get quite so many models in range, but that's mitigated by the enlightened having 1 less wound per model. To trigger GBtP you need to get the enemy to activate but not cripple your enlightened, and I don't quite see how this strategy accomplishes this. It might work better on defense where you can stick a line of Gors or Bestigors in front of the enlightened (and thus they won't be reachable by 1" range weapons but can strike back), but in that case the enemy probably charges at an angle where the enlightened will be out of range if at all possible.

Slight cross book stuff on the enlightened, but I was thinking of them for tzeentch. Enlightened are part of some battalions, and the points reduction may be a big deal for fitting them in.

Another reason I'm curious about them is exactly the defensive option. Tzeentch can grind out well, and eventually deal with threats, but lacks an anvil. I'm interested in trying out kairic acolytes and enlightened as objective holders, or wizard guards. 

 

Disc tzaangor may well end up just plain better, but I think it's worth trying, 100 points puts them as a pretty small investment. 

 

EDIT, on the shaman, a very fast hero has quite a few benefits, particularly a wizard, but shaman being able to get to places for command abilities is a big deal, never mind objectives. 

Edited by Satyrical Sophist
Quoted more than I meant to.
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1 hour ago, The Darkest Soul said:

Was just wondering about some of the synergies of the Gavespawn Greatfray and Nurgle Battalion. If a hero dies they deal a mortal wound in  a 7" radius and transform into a Chaos Spawn.. But if the spawn dies, since it would have the Nurgle keyword, does it also deal mortal wounds? 

No. It's not part of the battalion. 

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7 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

stuff

No need to turn it into a single number - pretty easy to draw up charts and compare the ideal targets, etc..

I've calculated tzaangors vs bestigors, looking at the number of points to cause a wound. I've used 120 pts for 10 bestigors, and 180 pts for a unit of tzaangors (champ with GW, 3 other GW, 2 mutants, remainder AHW). Given the above, the under 9 values are obviously an abstract number (still calculate for the same 10 models). 

Tzaangors 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+
No shaman, under 9 56.02305 38.8024 29.67939 24.02967
Shaman, under 9 41.09937 28.44184 21.74497 17.60072
No shaman, 9+ 32.50836 22.65734 17.38819 14.1074
Shaman, 9+ 23.76528 16.54468 12.6893 10.29116

----------

Bestigors 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+
Non-order, non-charge, <10 34.28571 25.71429 20.57143 17.14286
Order, non-charge, <10 29.38776 22.04082 17.63265 14.69388
Non-order, charge, <10 23.22581 17.41935 13.93548 11.6129
Order, charge, <10 19.90783 14.93088 11.9447 9.953917
Non-order, non-charge, +10 25.71429 19.28571 15.42857 12.85714
Order, non-charge, +10 22.04082 16.53061 13.22449 11.02041
Non-order, charge, +10 17.41935 13.06452 10.45161 8.709677
Order, charge, +10 14.93088 11.19816 8.958525 7.465438

 

Essentially - against 10+ model units or when charging, bestigors are more offensively efficient than tzaangors. 

If your opponent is able to reduce tzaangors below 9 models, they aren't in the same conversation.

Defensively, bestigors are actually equally resilient against non-rend attacks, but are progressively less efficient the higher the quality attacks. 

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2 hours ago, Dmuerto said:

 

Ungor  Raiders are not battleline in the new book.

What do you think will be the typical makeup of battleline then? Bestigors and ungors? Ungors solely for cheap sacrifices?

im really thinking the brayblast trumpet command trait seems pretty decent for ambushing raiders with the general. Raiders will receive the +1 to hit and raiders being a  30+ sized unit will get the reroll 1’s and 2’s to hit. That’s a lot of accuracy to soften units up?

Edited by Dracothjay
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22 minutes ago, Dracothjay said:

What do you think will be the typical makeup of battleline then? Bestigors and ungors? Ungors solely for cheap sacrifices?

im really thinking the brayblast trumpet command trait seems pretty decent for ambushing raiders with the general. Raiders will receive the +1 to hit and raiders being a  30+ sized unit will get the reroll 1’s and 2’s to hit. That’s a lot of accuracy to soften units up?

That is awesome and nasty in equal measure!

Means you'll deal about 16 wounds if I'm understanding it right?

20 Hits, 20 Misses that you reroll, of which about 13 will hit (as the +1 modifier count only on the re-roll), giving you 33 hits and 16ish wounds.

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39 minutes ago, Dracothjay said:

What do you think will be the typical makeup of battleline then? Bestigors and ungors? Ungors solely for cheap sacrifices?

im really thinking the brayblast trumpet command trait seems pretty decent for ambushing raiders with the general. Raiders will receive the +1 to hit and raiders being a  30+ sized unit will get the reroll 1’s and 2’s to hit. That’s a lot of accuracy to soften units up?

Yeah I'm  pondering that myself. I would def want to build the Ungor Raiders as well from my 3x Start Collecting kits but then it leaves me with 3x Beastigors which also function as a battleline but then it would be without the discount = 60pts more.  Ofc could also get some Gors and use them as a battleline but they benefit from 20+ models. So could 2 separate units of 10 Beastigors and 1 unit of 30 Gors do the trick? :D

Edited by Dmuerto
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7 hours ago, decker_cky said:

No need to turn it into a single number - pretty easy to draw up charts and compare the ideal targets, etc..

I've calculated tzaangors vs bestigors, looking at the number of points to cause a wound. I've used 120 pts for 10 bestigors, and 180 pts for a unit of tzaangors (champ with GW, 3 other GW, 2 mutants, remainder AHW). Given the above, the under 9 values are obviously an abstract number (still calculate for the same 10 models). 

Tzaangors 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+
No shaman, under 9 56.02305 38.8024 29.67939 24.02967
Shaman, under 9 41.09937 28.44184 21.74497 17.60072
No shaman, 9+ 32.50836 22.65734 17.38819 14.1074
Shaman, 9+ 23.76528 16.54468 12.6893 10.29116

----------

Bestigors 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+
Non-order, non-charge, <10 34.28571 25.71429 20.57143 17.14286
Order, non-charge, <10 29.38776 22.04082 17.63265 14.69388
Non-order, charge, <10 23.22581 17.41935 13.93548 11.6129
Order, charge, <10 19.90783 14.93088 11.9447 9.953917
Non-order, non-charge, +10 25.71429 19.28571 15.42857 12.85714
Order, non-charge, +10 22.04082 16.53061 13.22449 11.02041
Non-order, charge, +10 17.41935 13.06452 10.45161 8.709677
Order, charge, +10 14.93088 11.19816 8.958525 7.465438

 

Essentially - against 10+ model units or when charging, bestigors are more offensively efficient than tzaangors. 

If your opponent is able to reduce tzaangors below 9 models, they aren't in the same conversation.

Defensively, bestigors are actually equally resilient against non-rend attacks, but are progressively less efficient the higher the quality attacks. 

that'll be why they nerf'd tzaangors then. 

gotta sell them models

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8 minutes ago, Dmuerto said:

Yeah I'm  pondering that myself. I would def want to build the Ungor Raiders as well from my 3x Start Collecting kits but then it leaves me with 3x Beastigors which also function as a battleline but then it would be without the discount = 60pts more.  Ofc could also get some Gors and use them as a battleline but they benefit from 20+ models. So could 2 separate units of 10 Beastigors and 1 unit of 30 Gors do the trick? :D

Same here. My first lists will be small 10 mannunits of bestigors and bulk up the raiders. Soften units up before my besti’s can get there. And the raiders will also divert attention (I hope) as I’ll b in my opponents face shooting him so he’ll have to deal with them.

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52 minutes ago, Charlo said:

That is awesome and nasty in equal measure!

Means you'll deal about 16 wounds if I'm understanding it right?

20 Hits, 20 Misses that you reroll, of which about 13 will hit (as the +1 modifier count only on the re-roll), giving you 33 hits and 16ish wounds.

From 40 ambushing Raiders with Brayblast trumpet you should get on average 17.82 wounds before saves:

(1-1/3*1/3)*(1/2)*39 + (1-1/6*1/6)*1/2 = 17.81944...

Since Prob(Hit)=1-Prob(Miss) and with Brayblast the Raiders miss iff they roll a 1 or 2 followed by another 1 or 2 on the reroll (1/3*1/3 chance).

I've had some good luck with Raiders using the Brayblast trumpet buff so far. Definitely effective for softening up opponents for the Bestigors' ambush charge.

Edited by The_Yellow_Sign
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32 minutes ago, Charlo said:

I just love the idea of a Horn going off and countless crude arrows being loosed from the trees into unsuspecting foes while a horde of angry goatmen with axes stride forward bleeting and beheading things.

Truly magnificent.

I've also toyed with the idea of a first turn charge from centigors hitting at the same time.

14" move, +3" from shaman, possibly 2" from cogs endless spell.

That gives them a minimum threat range of 21" or 23" with the cogs out, pretty good chance of making the whole way with or without the cogs

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36 minutes ago, Charlo said:

I just love the idea of a Horn going off and countless crude arrows being loosed from the trees into unsuspecting foes while a horde of angry goatmen with axes stride forward bleeting and beheading things.

Truly magnificent.

I remember when that was the Wood Elves/Wanderers job!?

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47 minutes ago, Forrix said:

The App has been updated but doesn't have a Beasts of Chaos allegiance option. Is this an error or am I missing something about how the new book works?

 

14 minutes ago, michu said:

GW said that allegiance will show up in the app when the book comes out. 

Yea, remember the book technically isn't even out yet! Last weekend was the pre orders! We've just been running off with Leaks and Reveals.

 

Though it is quite nice how far more relaxed both GW and forums are with this kind of stuff (or at least with AoS). I remember when talking about point costs and other army book contents on forums counted as violating copywrite laws, so we all talked in "Skaven Slave" numbers since they were 2pts a body.

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42 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

 

 Yea, remember the book technically isn't even out yet! Last weekend was the pre orders! We've just been running off with Leaks and Reveals.

  

Though it is quite nice how far more relaxed both GW and forums are with this kind of stuff (or at least with AoS). I remember when talking about point costs and other army book contents on forums counted as violating copywrite laws, so we all talked in "Skaven Slave" numbers since they were 2pts a body.

That was paranoia on the part of those running the forums. GW never took any action in that regard.

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11 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

That was paranoia on the part of those running the forums. GW never took any action in that regard.

Well yea I knew it was mostly paranoia, it was just a tad annoying if you accidentally said something like "sword of might is 25 points" and then a big ol moderator warning was in your inbox making you feel bad.

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To swing this back on topic, I think there's a really interesting army available with big cheap blocks (ungors, raiders, gors) supported by smaller, fast hard hitters (min. bestigors, min. disc enlightened, ghorgons, etc..). 3 min bestigors to cover battleline is only 360 pts, and they hit hard enough to break the back of a lot of units (particularly if softened by raiders ahead of time). 

The list is fast enough to get your blocks onto objectives before your opponent, has enough bodies to hold objectives, and hits hard enough to threaten key targets.

 

edit - to make the conversation more tangible, something like this Gavespawn/Desolating Beastherd army:

 

10 Bestigors 120
10 Bestigors 120
10 Bestigors 120
30 Raiders 240
40 Ungors 200
30 Gors 210
Beastlord (mutating gnarlblade) 90
GBS 100
GBS 100
Ghorgon 220
Desolating beastherd 150
   
Shaggoth (general) 180
Beastlord (volcanic axe) 90
Chaos Spawn 50
  1990
Edited by decker_cky
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