AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[The Red King]

46 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

I've said this before but I was surprised we had an article. "We asked an actual goat..."

I love Beastmen. They hit a thematic point in my heart: the unknown terror of the dark woods. Of the unknown. There is a demoniac imagery in their shape that mirrors the goatmen in Diablo I loved so much. My gamer handle for years has been "Gharbad the Weak".

But sometimes I think beastmen should have remained a chaff unit for Chaos. Better than this goofy half-life of a faction.

Honestly BoC feels like Dark Eldar pre 8th edition. I played from the tail end of 5th through the middle of 8th and we spent a long time with no updates to our rules.

 

It wasn't always fun but there was a pride in figuring out how to play around and win with an army that was so far behind the curve. What ultimately happened is that Dark Eldar shed the players who didn't care about the army because it wasn't competitive and it left us with a very healthy community that also never realized they were getting pretty darn good at the game. When 8th came out and everyone got a real even playing field again Dark Eldar winrates sky rocketed, not because they were OP (at the time mind you I understand they're pretty strong right now too) but because everyone of their players that were still playing them was an expert at Dark Eldar. They knew everything about their army because they were passionate fans of the Dark Eldar, not just players. When they were allowed to take the handicap off they realized they'd learned quite a bit about how to win even with the deck stacked against you and it made them better players overall.

 

 I like to imagine that BoC are going through something similar. Now I represent a different class of BoC player because I'm no expert, but I am passionate about them or I wouldn't play them. I know they're "bad" in the competitive sense but I'm not playing them because they'll win my games for me, and that passion for the faction translates into a ravenous consumption of all things Beasts. I'm reading books, forums, repeatedly pouring over every shred of tactical information I can scavenge because I know I'm gonna need it. That doesn't make it more fun or bearable to get tabled on the top of 2 by a kharadron fleet you never even got to hit and it's okay to get tired of playing that, but at least you know you lost with an army you're an actual fan of and that commitment is commendable.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

40 minutes ago, The Red King said:

It wasn't always fun but there was a pride in figuring out how to play around and win with an army that was so far behind the curve.

Aye. There's something nice about hitting a meta army in the liver with and army they didn't expect that warms me cockles. There's something about being an underdog that makes me want to dig my heels in.

[The Red King]

Or the fact I accidentally play mind games on my opponent by convincing them everything in my army is terrible so they don't know what to target and underestimate them leading to mistakes such as splitting too many attacks or thinking something weak will hold them off longer than expected.

 

I say accidentally because I legitimately don't expect anything out of my goat boys ever lol.

[Myrdin]

Can someone link the article please? I wanna take a look at that utter hogwash, but cant seem to find it when going through GW main page.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Myrdin

[Nordrim]

26 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Can someone link the article please? I wanna take a look at that utter hogwash, but cant seem to find it when going through GW main page.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/26/the-beasts-of-chaos-are-ready-to-rumble-with-the-new-editions-monstrous-rampage-rules/

 

Atleast they didn't call gors and bullgors winners here.

[Myrdin]

19 minutes ago, Nordrim said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/26/the-beasts-of-chaos-are-ready-to-rumble-with-the-new-editions-monstrous-rampage-rules/

 

Atleast they didn't call gors and bullgors winners here.

Cheers

Pff that article was big load of nothing. "Oh look monsters are good now coz monsters are good now! Ooo Cygor can do well against spells and wizards" Uhuh, thanks Cptn obvious.

[Sinfullyvannila]

On 6/26/2021 at 2:45 PM, Chaos Shepard said:

I also like how they call out Raiders and Skyfires as being "very capable when operating in there minimum unit size". You know like all those ranged units suffering from the new coherency rules... what.

 

Nevermind that Raiders can no long group up to gain rerolls, and Skyfires want to group up so they can active as a group to take advantage of Guided by the Future.

Ive never actually thought of running them in more than 3s for GFTF because I usually activate one of my groups on the unit I used the Taurus on.

[The Red King]

Do people want WiP pics of my shaggoth or just the finished paintjob? On the one hand I dont wanna spam but on the other yalls likes really motivated me to work on him faster.

[Myrdin]

5 hours ago, The Red King said:

Do people want WiP pics of my shaggoth or just the finished paintjob? On the one hand I dont wanna spam but on the other yalls likes really motivated me to work on him faster.

Just do what you want. I dont think anyone really minds the WIP pictures at all. As long as there is visible progress so its worth posting I think anyone enjoys some plastic inspiration

[The Red King]

Definitely making some progress. I've decided to paint the shields on his flanks as trophies. Trying to decide what to do to make the brass a little more brass and probably still have a highlight to do on the skin as well as some obvious cleaning. But he's really coming along.

[Popisdead]

 

On 6/24/2021 at 4:43 PM, Televiper11 said:

Use the Shaggoth spell to increase Ghorgon rend?

I would say that and Tendrils and the Herdstone.  Pump it up because -1 in a meta where things will have +1 you are paying for something that won't have an effect.  

On 6/26/2021 at 6:28 PM, Vaporlocke said:

"We grabbed a random hobo off the street and asked him about BoC tactics, to be honest we make them bad on purpose as a long-running joke around the office, we never imagined people would actually plays them."

Sadly,.. that dude is a guy who went 5-0 with Sylvaneth with their current trash book at a UK masters. soo,.. i'm all for calling people hobos since that's funny but no clue why he wrote the article,,. oh wait it's cause the only person in a masters to win probably laughed at GW so they did indeed find a random hobo as you said 😉

On 6/27/2021 at 2:29 AM, Nordrim said:

Atleast they didn't call gors and bullgors winners here.

I've heard Gors being called better these days.  Colonel Cabbage was talking about Gors vs Bestigors and he made good points.  75 points, rr charges, 4+ in combat.  And they die just like Bestigors.  His point was Bestigors (in 10 anyway) do less than you expect so the points difference is really noticeable.  I mean, just to consider.  I'm all for looking at things.  

[Vaporlocke]

52 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

 

I would say that and Tendrils and the Herdstone.  Pump it up because -1 in a meta where things will have +1 you are paying for something that won't have an effect.  

Sadly,.. that dude is a guy who went 5-0 with Sylvaneth with their current trash book at a UK masters. soo,.. i'm all for calling people hobos since that's funny but no clue why he wrote the article,,. oh wait it's cause the only person in a masters to win probably laughed at GW so they did indeed find a random hobo as you said 😉

I've heard Gors being called better these days.  Colonel Cabbage was talking about Gors vs Bestigors and he made good points.  75 points, rr charges, 4+ in combat.  And they die just like Bestigors.  His point was Bestigors (in 10 anyway) do less than you expect so the points difference is really noticeable.  I mean, just to consider.  I'm all for looking at things.  

I'm still swearing by 1 squad of 30 Bestigors, it's a lot of wounds and with the changes to pile ins you can use that 4" to wrap around and get more swings in. On the charge they're still pretty scary, especially when buffed/meeting conditional requirements. 

[Vaporlocke]

52 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

 

I would say that and Tendrils and the Herdstone.  Pump it up because -1 in a meta where things will have +1 you are paying for something that won't have an effect.  

Sadly,.. that dude is a guy who went 5-0 with Sylvaneth with their current trash book at a UK masters. soo,.. i'm all for calling people hobos since that's funny but no clue why he wrote the article,,. oh wait it's cause the only person in a masters to win probably laughed at GW so they did indeed find a random hobo as you said 😉

I've heard Gors being called better these days.  Colonel Cabbage was talking about Gors vs Bestigors and he made good points.  75 points, rr charges, 4+ in combat.  And they die just like Bestigors.  His point was Bestigors (in 10 anyway) do less than you expect so the points difference is really noticeable.  I mean, just to consider.  I'm all for looking at things.  

I'm still swearing by 1 squad of 30 Bestigors, it's a lot of wounds and with the changes to pile ins you can use that 4" to wrap around and get more swings in. On the charge they're still pretty scary, especially when buffed/meeting conditional requirements. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I've heard Gors being called better these days.  Colonel Cabbage was talking about Gors vs Bestigors and he made good points.  75 points, rr charges, 4+ in combat.  And they die just like Bestigors.  His point was Bestigors (in 10 anyway) do less than you expect so the points difference is really noticeable.  I mean, just to consider.  I'm all for looking at things.  

Yeah I was kids surprised at poo-pooing on Gors yet. Aren't they pretty much strictly better than Ungors in MSU now? I really don't agree with the comparison to Bestigors though. Isn't the whole point of them that they don't scale with model count so you can take them or leave them at 10? Also, they actually do quite good damage at 10, and you'd want to be running MSU hammers this edition since the opposition can only All out defence once per round now.

[Chaos Shepard]

I actually have been contemplating where Gors sit this new edition. The difference between Gors and Ungors is only 5 points, and without hoard discounts, this remains constant. Ungors are probably still better offensively thanks to the magic base size bonus, but your not really taking them for their damage output. 

Now compared to Bestigors, 20 Gors is only 15pts more than a single unit of Bestigors. For near the same point you get twice the number of wounds and the same armor save in combat. Now I don't think this makes Gors strictly better that Bestigors now. In a head on confrontation the Bestigors would probably win in the end. However, if you are looking for something more defensive they are the better investment.

I am actually thinking a nice 30 man block of Gors might not be a bad investment for 225pt. Between Mystic Shield, All-out Defense, and Rally; they might have a decent staying power. Before anyone says anything, I know you cant benefit from Mystic Shield, All-out Defense, and Beastshields at the same time, but they can be used to negate enemy rend.

That said I was also wandering how duel wielding Gors might stack-up. I still think shields is the way to go since you would most likely be taking them for defensive purposes, but with the cap on armor saves and easy access to +1 save, it might be worth investigating.

Last thing to consider is the new abilty they got in Kragnos. If you just spam a bunch of MSU Gors and roll out of ambush, you might have a decent chance of catching a few enemy units. You don't necessarily have to win these engagements, just slowing the enemy down for a turn could be enough to swing the game in your favor.

This is just a few things to think about.

[Myrdin]

What are your oppinions on Centigors and warhounds in this edition ?

Simply due to the Centigor price increase the warhounds appear better, but tbh unless they had a warscroll change I dont really see them being better.

[tupavko]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

What are your oppinions on Centigors and warhounds in this edition ?

Simply due to the Centigor price increase the warhounds appear better, but tbh unless they had a warscroll change I dont really see them being better.

I played 3 games till now, yet only one with BoC, the other two were Troggoth and Skaven. 

Although I like it a lot, I feel this edition is yet more about extremes. A unt must have a role: either to hold the line (because resistent or unkillable or slippery) or you break the line (hit damn hard). Some units can do both ok-ish. 

For BoC the issue is we are always in the weak middle, not punching hard enough, not survivable enough. This is the reason  I and others found bestigors in a weird spot. In 3.0 if you can't hold the line you want chaff, so you want those bodies as cheap as possible, no matter how hard they hit or what add-ons they get if they cost a lot more they are not worth it... 

So Centigors and hounds suffer the sa.me problem as bestigors: they add speed compared to gors but gors are already fast enough, and they still lack punchiness so why bringing them to the table? 

Edited June 30, 2021 by tupavko

[The Red King]

I think gors dont really keep up in the speed department and I'd argue moving fast is a 3rd category of unit. Having things that can get up and around screens to absorb unleash hell or threaten the most far flung objectives are still useful. I think chariots for their points are the better option (big bases can also clog up movement lanes for the enemy) but centigor starting near a bray shaman move 17+D6 inches and can still charge (either strictly into non combat units like support wizards and artillery, or onto the very corner of an enemy unit to hold them in place for a turn by limiting the return swings). They also make a pretty wide screen thanks to their large bases and 5 man unit coherency rules. I've given quite a bit of thought to that since I'm considering bringing both in my list. Which speaking of I need some help with.

 

So the list is:

Shaggoth

Bray shaman×2

Beastlord

Doombull

 

10 bestigor×2 (they're probably not very good but they're af least mildly threatening to non combat units and can ambush. Plus I just love them)

6 bullgor (should I split this into 2 units of 3 perhaps? I'm leaning yes for more flexible movement)

10 gor×2

Ghorgon×2

5 centigor

Wildfire taurus

 

 

Now I have a few choices with my remaining 135 points and I need some help deciding what to bring.

 

1. Tzaangor shaman - fast, another caster (relevant for my grand strategy), another character to become a spawn, allows a second warlord batallion for another artifact but he represents less bodies on the table, and all of his built in buffs and spells are wasted without tzaangor

 

2. 10 gor and an emerald lifeswarm - more bodies on the table and the swarm can be cast early and maintained to keep my sacrifices coming at the headstone. Cons are not getting the other options. 

 

3.tuskgor chariot×2 - less bodies than option 2 but similar utility as far as speed and board control. Can tie up units for a bit if hi tap their corner or target something weak. 

 

4. Bray shaman and burning head- again another caster, another character, and a decently useful spell (it's kinda like a heat seeking arcane bolt). Cons are less bodies and the fact that I actually have good magic to cast most turns so burning head might languish. Also allows a second warlord batallion.

 

Worth consideration is that options 3 and 4 are both below 2k (by 5 and 15 points respectively) so they COULD represent a triumph but I'm not sure how much weight if any that should carry.

Edited June 30, 2021 by The Red King

[Feorag]

Wow this could be massive.

 

[The Red King]

28 minutes ago, Feorag said:

Wow this could be massive.

 

This might not work for me since my army is 90%beasts 10% khorne but assuming it works the other way around and I can slip a bloodsecrator in and get the khorne keyword than this is exactly what I need.

[Kramig]

Oh very good!! I would have preferred the opposite, but that's OK however

[Chaos Shepard]

4 hours ago, Kramig said:

Oh very good!! I would have preferred the opposite, but that's OK however

I know what you mean. If it were up to me I would add 4 new Greatfrays that would more or less be copies of the old Battalions. On top of adding the respective god keyword, they would also unlock the corresponding allies.

[Marius au]

I would not be surprised if that was actually in the book.

[Fyrenn]

Well, the errata is up...

 

Not really sure what I was expecting, I guess.  Doesn't look like you can even ally or coalition in Slaangors.

 

[Maddpainting]

1 hour ago, Fyrenn said:

Well, the errata is up...

 

Not really sure what I was expecting, I guess.  Doesn't look like you can even ally or coalition in Slaangors.

 

Yep, can not use Slaangors. 

Wildfire Taurus also effects us if we are within 3" of it now too.

Not changed to Raiders, no other warscroll change like many armies, no marks but instead a bad coalition rule for other armies. Over all not idea for us.

Minor buff, Terrain can be near enemy territories now and Ravening Direflock got a small buff.