AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Sinfullyvannila]

17 hours ago, Fyrenn said:

Maybe this is a better 3.0 question, but how are you getting so many spells and so much equipment?  I had thought we only get one spell now (not one per wizard) so to get a second spell we'd need to use the enhancement for it?

So basically there would be on Command Trait, Artifact, and Spell - and then you can get either an additional artifact or spell with the warlord battalion?

 

 

The spells are covered in the margin note next to the spell lores entry.

[The Red King]

Got a game of 3.0 in last night against Hedonites and will try to write a brief report from memory. Ultimately due to a combination of unfamiliar rules and my opponent spending a little too much time talking to other people and not focusing on the game we had to call it at the bottom of 2.

Slaanesh: Pretneders w/ lurid haze
Grand strategy: sever the head

KoS×2 one with amulet of destiny
Dexcessa
Lord of pain

5 twinsouls ×3

Mesmerizing mirror
Wheels of excrutiation

Beasts: Gavespawn
Grand strategy: hold the line

Beastlord w/gnarlblade
Shaggoth w/ hailstorm
Doombull
Brayshaman w/eye and stranglethorn
Brayshaman w/ wild rampage

10 gors ×2
10 bestigor ×3
6 bullgor
5 centigor
Ghorgon ×2

Wildfire Taurus

Playing rising power. Hedonites outdrop me placing a keeper on either flank (amulet keeper only right), dex in the middle, 10 twin souls on my left and 5 on my right. With the lord of pain all alone by his fame. He then picked up dex and a keeper to deep strike later with Lurid haze and gave me turn 1.

My deployment was a bit cagey because I knew he had deep striking and so I ended up with a ghorgon slightly right of center and a ghorgon slightly left. My headstone was to my right with 1 shaman w/knowing eye within 3" and the other shaman closer to center. Shaggoth was to my right with 10 bestigor strung out as best they could to push his teleporting stuff further out. My left-center flank contained the bullgors and doombull with centigor strung out in front of them. The furthest left flank was more or less ignored which in hindsight was an odd choice since rising power has an objective on that side. I also expected him to take first turn which he did not. I ambushed the beastlord, 20 gor, and 20 bestigor.

Top of turn 1 I choose hold the center as my battle tactic for the turn. My hero phase goes very poorly. I manage to miscast with both the shaggoth and the headstone shaman (leaving the latter on one wound). I successfully cast wild rampage on my bullgors and that's it. In movement my centigor (who gained bestial vigour from the shaman) moved and ran ending easily outside 3" of his lord of pain (intending to block him in for a turn). My ghorgon push slightly out left and right to screen teleports while my bulls and bullgor go up the center. On the right flank I also moved up the bestigor before ambushing in 20 bestigor plus beastlord in his backfield behind the LoP and then 20 gors in my backfield to keep him from teleporting behind me.

In the charge phase (using one reroll) both bestigor and the beastlord charge his lord of pain. My beastlord deals 4 damage to the lord and is killed by the reflecting ward save of the LoP (so that was unimpressive). His lord kills 2 or 3 bestigor and dies to their return swings. Beastlord becomes a spawn but I forget until his movement phase and hes kind enough to let me drop him down since it didnt change where or how he moved.

I score 1 for holding 1 objective. 1 for holding 2. 1 for holding more. And 2 for my battle tactic putting me at 5.

Bottom of turn 1. Hedonites choose to kill a unit from my starting army as their battleplan. In his hero phase he gets off mesmerizing mirror right next to 4 of my 5 heroes and puts out 5 mortal wounds between them. He then moves the keeper up on my right, moves 5 twinsouls towards my bestigor in his backfield and 10 towards my centigor. KoS#2 and Dex teleport onto my left flank as expected preparing to charge my ghorgon and gors respectively. He successfully charges the ghorgon on my right with his keeper (pulling in the bestigor) and charges my centigor and bestigor with twinsouls (wiping the centigor while losing 1 and a half twinsoul). The keeper on the right puts the ghorgon down to 2 wounds and kills 2 bestigor who pass their battle shock in the end. The teleporting keeper and dex both fail their charges which is big. He scores 1 for holding 1 objective and 2 for his battle tactic.

Hedonites win the roll and take the double going into the top of 2, choosing to kill a unit wholly within his own territory as the battleplan. In the hero phase his mirror does no damage but he summons the wheels on my left dealing chip damage to the bullgors and ghorgon. Moves his twinsouls to charge the spawn and my bullgors and moves the keeper and dex to charge my left flank ghorgon and gors. He makes all of his 3 inch charges unsurprisingly. In combat on my right he splits his attacks and rolls poorly only taking 1 wound off the ghorgon and killing 2 bestigor. He kills one unit of bestigor in his backfield, the chaos spawn and 7 gors. His keeper on my left utterly flubbed his rolls and deals no damage to the ghorgon. In return my bullgors murder the twinsouls that charged them. I take some wounds off the keeper on my right (locus meant I could only swing with 2 bestigor) and I put 10 wounds on his keeper on my left thanks to the unwoudned ghorgon. He scores 1 for holding 1, 1 for holding 2 and his battle tactic making it 7 to 5.

Bottom of 2. My battle tactic is take an objective he controls (the one on my left with the ghorgon and severely wounded keeper). Hero phase I dispel his mirror, put out some MW with stranglethorn and successfully cast the taurus hitting his keeper and dex on the left for minimal damage but more importantly "fights last". I then moved my bullgors, and shaggoth back to kill dex. My doombull to help kill the right side keeper and my bestigor to engage his twinsouls (a mistake ultimately). I then summoned a spawn near dex to use the progenitor of devolution on the bullgors. After charges and combats the brightside ghorgon is dead and the keeper took some wounds. My bestigors in his backfield are wiped to 2 (and then run to battleshock). My left side ghorgon overkills his KoS and the bullgors kill Dex without the shaggoth or spawn (who made a long charge for no reason) even swing. I score another 5 points.

We called it at that point with my opponent fairly sure he could win if the game went to 5 due to summoning. I strongly disagreed as he had almost no chance of scoring his grand strategy or stopping me from scoring mine due to the far flung location of my remaining gors but most importantly he just didnt have the bodies to stop me scoring and he'd already fallen behind on points while I still had all 6 bulls, 4 heroes, a ghorgon and roughly 20 gor/bestigor compared to his one wounded keeper and a grand total of 7 twinsouls. Ultimately we both agreed he had the potential to win the game still it wa highly unlikely and called it a win for the beasts.

I don't have any concrete thoughts on 3.0 yet as it was my first game but against a faction as nerfed as Hedonites we are certainly at least playable. My only observation so far is that units with small frontage and concentrated damage such as twinsouls and bullgors are far superior to anything larger than 5 models due to how coherency works to drastically limit the number of models you can swing with.

 

I'm considering turning one group of bestigor into gors allowing me to not make the beastlord my general because hes very easy to kill in case my opponent is using the vendetta grand strategy. The remaining 60 points are a bit weird to work with though. I'm considering an emerald lifeswarm to be summoned by my headstone shaman to heal up any wounds he takes and return sacrificial gors. Any thoughts?

Edited June 24, 2021 by The Red King

[Vaporlocke]

5 hours ago, The Red King said:

Got a game of 3.0 in last night against Hedonites and will try to write a brief report from memory. Ultimately due to a combination of unfamiliar rules and my opponent spending a little too much time talking to other people and not focusing on the game we had to call it at the bottom of 2.

Slaanesh: Pretneders w/ lurid haze
Grand strategy: sever the head

KoS×2 one with amulet of destiny
Dexcessa
Lord of pain

5 twinsouls ×3

Mesmerizing mirror
Wheels of excrutiation

Beasts: Gavespawn
Grand strategy: hold the line

Beastlord w/gnarlblade
Shaggoth w/ hailstorm
Doombull
Brayshaman w/eye and stranglethorn
Brayshaman w/ wild rampage

10 gors ×2
10 bestigor ×3
6 bullgor
5 centigor
Ghorgon ×2

Wildfire Taurus

Playing rising power. Hedonites outdrop me placing a keeper on either flank (amulet keeper only right), dex in the middle, 10 twin souls on my left and 5 on my right. With the lord of pain all alone by his fame. He then picked up dex and a keeper to deep strike later with Lurid haze and gave me turn 1.

My deployment was a bit cagey because I knew he had deep striking and so I ended up with a ghorgon slightly right of center and a ghorgon slightly left. My headstone was to my right with 1 shaman w/knowing eye within 3" and the other shaman closer to center. Shaggoth was to my right with 10 bestigor strung out as best they could to push his teleporting stuff further out. My left-center flank contained the bullgors and doombull with centigor strung out in front of them. The furthest left flank was more or less ignored which in hindsight was an odd choice since rising power has an objective on that side. I also expected him to take first turn which he did not. I ambushed the beastlord, 20 gor, and 20 bestigor.

Top of turn 1 I choose hold the center as my battle tactic for the turn. My hero phase goes very poorly. I manage to miscast with both the shaggoth and the headstone shaman (leaving the latter on one wound). I successfully cast wild rampage on my bullgors and that's it. In movement my centigor (who gained bestial vigour from the shaman) moved and ran ending easily outside 3" of his lord of pain (intending to block him in for a turn). My ghorgon push slightly out left and right to screen teleports while my bulls and bullgor go up the center. On the right flank I also moved up the bestigor before ambushing in 20 bestigor plus beastlord in his backfield behind the LoP and then 20 gors in my backfield to keep him from teleporting behind me.

In the charge phase (using one reroll) both bestigor and the beastlord charge his lord of pain. My beastlord deals 4 damage to the lord and is killed by the reflecting ward save of the LoP (so that was unimpressive). His lord kills 2 or 3 bestigor and dies to their return swings. Beastlord becomes a spawn but I forget until his movement phase and hes kind enough to let me drop him down since it didnt change where or how he moved.

I score 1 for holding 1 objective. 1 for holding 2. 1 for holding more. And 2 for my battle tactic putting me at 5.

Bottom of turn 1. Hedonites choose to kill a unit from my starting army as their battleplan. In his hero phase he gets off mesmerizing mirror right next to 4 of my 5 heroes and puts out 5 mortal wounds between them. He then moves the keeper up on my right, moves 5 twinsouls towards my bestigor in his backfield and 10 towards my centigor. KoS#2 and Dex teleport onto my left flank as expected preparing to charge my ghorgon and gors respectively. He successfully charges the ghorgon on my right with his keeper (pulling in the bestigor) and charges my centigor and bestigor with twinsouls (wiping the centigor while losing 1 and a half twinsoul). The keeper on the right puts the ghorgon down to 2 wounds and kills 2 bestigor who pass their battle shock in the end. The teleporting keeper and dex both fail their charges which is big. He scores 1 for holding 1 objective and 2 for his battle tactic.

Hedonites win the roll and take the double going into the top of 2, choosing to kill a unit wholly within his own territory as the battleplan. In the hero phase his mirror does no damage but he summons the wheels on my left dealing chip damage to the bullgors and ghorgon. Moves his twinsouls to charge the spawn and my bullgors and moves the keeper and dex to charge my left flank ghorgon and gors. He makes all of his 3 inch charges unsurprisingly. In combat on my right he splits his attacks and rolls poorly only taking 1 wound off the ghorgon and killing 2 bestigor. He kills one unit of bestigor in his backfield, the chaos spawn and 7 gors. His keeper on my left utterly flubbed his rolls and deals no damage to the ghorgon. In return my bullgors murder the twinsouls that charged them. I take some wounds off the keeper on my right (locus meant I could only swing with 2 bestigor) and I put 10 wounds on his keeper on my left thanks to the unwoudned ghorgon. He scores 1 for holding 1, 1 for holding 2 and his battle tactic making it 7 to 5.

Bottom of 2. My battle tactic is take an objective he controls (the one on my left with the ghorgon and severely wounded keeper). Hero phase I dispel his mirror, put out some MW with stranglethorn and successfully cast the taurus hitting his keeper and dex on the left for minimal damage but more importantly "fights last". I then moved my bullgors, and shaggoth back to kill dex. My doombull to help kill the right side keeper and my bestigor to engage his twinsouls (a mistake ultimately). I then summoned a spawn near dex to use the progenitor of devolution on the bullgors. After charges and combats the brightside ghorgon is dead and the keeper took some wounds. My bestigors in his backfield are wiped to 2 (and then run to battleshock). My left side ghorgon overkills his KoS and the bullgors kill Dex without the shaggoth or spawn (who made a long charge for no reason) even swing. I score another 5 points.

We called it at that point with my opponent fairly sure he could win if the game went to 5 due to summoning. I strongly disagreed as he had almost no chance of scoring his grand strategy or stopping me from scoring mine due to the far flung location of my remaining gors but most importantly he just didnt have the bodies to stop me scoring and he'd already fallen behind on points while I still had all 6 bulls, 4 heroes, a ghorgon and roughly 20 gor/bestigor compared to his one wounded keeper and a grand total of 7 twinsouls. Ultimately we both agreed he had the potential to win the game still it wa highly unlikely and called it a win for the beasts.

I don't have any concrete thoughts on 3.0 yet as it was my first game but against a faction as nerfed as Hedonites we are certainly at least playable. My only observation so far is that units with small frontage and concentrated damage such as twinsouls and bullgors are far superior to anything larger than 5 models due to how coherency works to drastically limit the number of models you can swing with.

 

I'm considering turning one group of bestigor into gors allowing me to not make the beastlord my general because hes very easy to kill in case my opponent is using the vendetta grand strategy. The remaining 60 points are a bit weird to work with though. I'm considering an emerald lifeswarm to be summoned by my headstone shaman to heal up any wounds he takes and return sacrificial gors. Any thoughts?

Shaman as general make Bestigor battleline too if that makes a difference to you.

[Popisdead]

On 6/22/2021 at 8:37 AM, tupavko said:

Bestigors are... situational at best. In my game they did as well as 10 ungors, but I feel that against a more infantry oriented army they could be useful, but 135pts for a chaff unit in ana army where you get those for 70/75 is kind of wasted.

Hope these are useful...

How were the Ghorgons?

Oof,.. harsh.

Always.

 

I want my cows back too.  moooo.

[The Red King]

21 minutes ago, Vaporlocke said:

Shaman as general make Bestigor battleline too if that makes a difference to you.

That is a good reminder yes. I'm not sure who to make the general really. The shaggoth is the toughest cookie but has a big enough target on his back. The doombull benefits me the most as far as having an extra unbind (on a different unit just increasing my coverage, as well as fitting the theme of him being khornate and hating magic) and he can make the most use of the increased range to issue commands since he'll be right up at the front BUT making my general a backfield shaman is a good way to have him survive or to lure the enemy into over committing to kill him but hes very easy to kill hmmm.

 

I'm leaning towards the doombull I think. 3rd edition may have changed my army comp but in my head canon the doombull is still the leader of the skullfray.

 

And I know you werent talking to me pop but in every game I've played I've been pleasantly surprised by the ghorgon. At one point I asked my opponent why his keeper had less attacks than the other one and he was like "he's taken 10 wounds" and I just kind of looked confused and said "from what??" Becaue in my mind the fact my Ghorgon had hit him for 9 damage just didnt even register because I thought Ghorgon don't deal damage (and 1 from the wildfire). Titanic duel felt like a huge boost to them for *free* and against smaller things he'd have stomp and potentially all out attack.

Edited June 24, 2021 by The Red King

[Popisdead]

What are people thinking as a mixed bag (so not strictly Warherd or DrOgures) for a Great Fray?  I guess I saw Gavespawn from the red king.  are there book command traits and items people are going for instead?

[tupavko]

50 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

How were the Ghorgons?

Oof,.. harsh.

Always.

 

I want my cows back too.  moooo.

They were ok... I mean they are a 170pts monster, so they can punch waaaaaay above their weight, so as a first impression I can say I was satisfied, yet as all of our army they have major drawbacks:

- slow compared to how our army plays (they could easely get run and charge and still wouldn't be overpowered) 

- they lose power super fast

- they do not last long

- rend -1 is a joke

 

[The Red King]

22 minutes ago, tupavko said:

They were ok... I mean they are a 170pts monster, so they can punch waaaaaay above their weight, so as a first impression I can say I was satisfied, yet as all of our army they have major drawbacks:

- slow compared to how our army plays (they could easely get run and charge and still wouldn't be overpowered) 

- they lose power super fast

- they do not last long

- rend -1 is a joke

 

The GHB rules for Ghur actually help with the first 2 points. Slap them in an alpha beast pack batallion for a free D6" move before the first turn (still slow sure but every little bit helps and the board is smaller than it used to be.) And then the "primal... roar??" Command ability that everyone has access too allowing you to treat a monster as being on it's top bracket.

 

The last 2 are still entirely true but I guess you can try to be near the headstone or smack the enemy with Tendrils of Atrophy if you want to get through armor easier?

Not that they couldnt bear to get a little help, but I try not to think about all the ways we COULD be better or I'd be sitting and thinking until beasts get actual new models lol.

[Televiper11]

Use the Shaggoth spell to increase Ghorgon rend?

[Vaporlocke]

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

What are people thinking as a mixed bag (so not strictly Warherd or DrOgures) for a Great Fray?  I guess I saw Gavespawn from the red king.  are there book command traits and items people are going for instead?

I feel like Gavespawn is still going to be the best choice, the spawn shenanigans still work even if the command ability got neutered a bit.

 

My reworked list is a few pages back but if you're willing to give up the one drop battalion I think going for the extra enhancement core battalion and giving your general the core book 5+ ward save item isn't a bad choice at all considering that 2 of the 3 grand strategies involve your general dying. Every little bit helps when you're struggling as much as we are. 

[The Red King]

42 minutes ago, Televiper11 said:

Use the Shaggoth spell to increase Ghorgon rend?

That would also work. I feel like tendrils of atrophy is the better choice if you expect a lot of armor because it multiplies its effectiveness across multiple units but also you can do both since one is a buff to your rend and the other is a debuff to their save.

3 minutes ago, Vaporlocke said:

I feel like Gavespawn is still going to be the best choice, the spawn shenanigans still work even if the command ability got neutered a bit.

 

My reworked list is a few pages back but if you're willing to give up the one drop battalion I think going for the extra enhancement core battalion and giving your general the core book 5+ ward save item isn't a bad choice at all considering that 2 of the 3 grand strategies involve your general dying. Every little bit helps when you're struggling as much as we are. 

I want to give up the sub faction to get master of magic on my shaggoth (wildfire taurus is seriously good) or "ancient beyond knowing" for d3 free CP in the first turn but the gnarlblade is still really good and without khorne buffs the bullgor really need an extra attack from somewhere and then the free spawn are just icing on the cake.

Honestly if I could find a way to add a 6th hero that I was happy with I would just for the double enhancements. The magic book on the doombull for flaming weapon seems really fun and the amulet as you said is just really good.

[Feorag]

After finishing my tzaangor Shaman I have now 2k painted and based and ready for a tournament at the end of July.

In November I decided to strip everything back from 20+ years of collecting beasts and just absolutely eclectic paint schemes I wasn't happy and thought they needed some proper love! 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Feorag

[shalvan]

Do you think it could be possible to go for a Tzeentchy build focused on Tzaangors in the BoC allegiance? They got significantly cheaper now and they can hit like trucks. They do suffer from coherency though because of low attack range, and not having DoT agendas for bonus attacks after charge hurts. Have you tried such a build?

[Feorag]

39 minutes ago, shalvan said:

Do you think it could be possible to go for a Tzeentchy build focused on Tzaangors in the BoC allegiance? They got significantly cheaper now and they can hit like trucks. They do suffer from coherency though because of low attack range, and not having DoT agendas for bonus attacks after charge hurts. Have you tried such a build?

I've not tried one yet but I do have a couple of ideas to test out. 

I think enlightened will be done of our hardest hitters we have at the moment.

 

[DrThunder]

Nice to see my Cygors might actually do some work now with All out attack(core battalion freebie or cmd ability)in both shooting and combat phases.

Edited June 26, 2021 by DrThunder
spelling

[shalvan]

4 hours ago, Feorag said:

I've not tried one yet but I do have a couple of ideas to test out. 

I think enlightened will be done of our hardest hitters we have at the moment.

 

The Chronomantic Cogs might be one of the better spells now to try and get into combat turn one with Tzaangors or Enlightened. Though map-wide +2 was surely better than +1 to charge only within 18 inches. I guess for a tzaangor list we'd get a Tzaangor Shaman general and also a Great Bray-Shaman for his movement aura. Enlightened on Disk are so fast they should generally be able to reach the enemy T1, while regular Tzaangors could enter from Ambush.

[shalvan]

That's just... I have no words

[The Red King]

11 minutes ago, shalvan said:

That's just... I have no words

I thought that sounded wrong lol I mean we knew nobody plays beasts in the studio but it turns out they dont even know anyone that plays beasts lol. (But actually isn't this guy a top beasts player?)

[Chaos Shepard]

I also like how they call out Raiders and Skyfires as being "very capable when operating in there minimum unit size". You know like all those ranged units suffering from the new coherency rules... what.

 

Nevermind that Raiders can no long group up to gain rerolls, and Skyfires want to group up so they can active as a group to take advantage of Guided by the Future.

[Skreech Verminking]

4 minutes ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I also like how they call out Raiders and Skyfires as being "very capable when operating in there minimum unit size". You know like all those ranged units suffering from the new coherency rules... what.

 

Nevermind that Raiders can no long group up to gain rerolls, and Skyfires want to group up so they can active as a group to take advantage of Guided by the Future.

Sounds like as if gw itself is having some extreme problems at finding some good news for beastplayers.

 

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

I mean, if GW had someone who was good with Beasts write the article and their advice was actually useful that would have been far more surprising than what we got. The article today was pretty much exactly as suspected.

[The Red King]

22 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

I mean, if GW had someone who was good with Beasts write the article and their advice was actually useful that would have been far more surprising than what we got. The article today was pretty much exactly as suspected.

I'm not an expert but I do think it's the first one to just be flat out wrong. Apparently the way to win with beasts is to cheat and shoot in the combat phase lol

[Vaporlocke]

4 hours ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

I mean, if GW had someone who was good with Beasts write the article and their advice was actually useful that would have been far more surprising than what we got. The article today was pretty much exactly as suspected.

"We grabbed a random hobo off the street and asked him about BoC tactics, to be honest we make them bad on purpose as a long-running joke around the office, we never imagined people would actually plays them."

 

I was honestly expecting our article to just be blank. 

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

1 hour ago, Vaporlocke said:

"We grabbed a random hobo off the street and asked him about BoC tactics, to be honest we make them bad on purpose as a long-running joke around the office, we never imagined people would actually plays them."

 

I was honestly expecting our article to just be blank. 

I've said this before but I was surprised we had an article. "We asked an actual goat..."

I love Beastmen. They hit a thematic point in my heart: the unknown terror of the dark woods. Of the unknown. There is a demoniac imagery in their shape that mirrors the goatmen in Diablo I loved so much. My gamer handle for years has been "Gharbad the Weak".

But sometimes I think beastmen should have remained a chaff unit for Chaos. Better than this goofy half-life of a faction.

[Vaporlocke]

28 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

I've said this before but I was surprised we had an article. "We asked an actual goat..."

I love Beastmen. They hit a thematic point in my heart: the unknown terror of the dark woods. Of the unknown. There is a demoniac imagery in their shape that mirrors the goatmen in Diablo I loved so much. My gamer handle for years has been "Gharbad the Weak".

But sometimes I think beastmen should have remained a chaff unit for Chaos. Better than this goofy half-life of a faction.

At this point it's a badge of stubborn pride to be a goatherder.

 

Although I do think our next army wide rule should be "If you lose to BoC in a competitive setting you are banned from playing AoS, how do you blow having every advantage possible?"