AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Ganigumo]

@Kamose The rerolling charges was to specifically buff gors and give them some kind of purpose so i'm fine with it not affecting other Gor units.

I think this is an interesting change that actually gives Gors utility, which is more useful than just buffing their damage but I would like to see it taken a step further (maybe an extra +1 to charge or something)

We're getting a smaller board size in aos 3 too, so our ambush covers more of the available space and bringing in a unit of Gors to tag the edge of a unit, where only a couple of enemy models can fight will be a super useful tool that has the potential to repeatedly gum up our opponent's board.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

3 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

We're getting a smaller board size in aos 3 too, so our ambush covers more of the available space and bringing in a unit of Gors to tag the edge of a unit, where only a couple of enemy models can fight will be a super useful tool that has the potential to repeatedly gum up our opponent's board.

Been running a Beasts of Khorne Brass Despoilers list and looking at ways to run it as actual BoC.  It brought up the general worry that with a smaller board any board edge based ambush going to be easier and easier to screen off.  Fewer units may be an offset but looking at BoC or even FEC summoning this seems to be a potential snag.

[Kamose]

17 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

@Kamose The rerolling charges was to specifically buff gors and give them some kind of purpose so i'm fine with it not affecting other Gor units.

I think this is an interesting change that actually gives Gors utility, which is more useful than just buffing their damage but I would like to see it taken a step further (maybe an extra +1 to charge or something)

We're getting a smaller board size in aos 3 too, so our ambush covers more of the available space and bringing in a unit of Gors to tag the edge of a unit, where only a couple of enemy models can fight will be a super useful tool that has the potential to repeatedly gum up our opponent's board.

Oh don't get me wrong, I think the rerolling charges from ambush is definitely a good change.  In fact rerolling charges would've made a huge difference in the game I mentioned in my previous post.  Specifically I ambushed two units of Gors and a Beastlord and only one of them successfully charged (Hint: it wasn't the Gors).

I just wish Gors had something to do with all that speed.  They can go anywhere they like but have nothing to do once they get there unless there's an undefended objective just hanging out by itself.  The axe & shield Gors are reasonably durable but the twin axe Gors just don't have any staying power even in a 30-Gor block.  Between their weak defense and Battleshock, even a pretty average melee unit can wipeout 30 axe Gors in a couple rounds of combat and take almost no damage in return.

Watching Tzaangors wipe out 3 times their number of Gors in one round of combat makes me sad.  ☹️

[Ganigumo]

22 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Been running a Beasts of Khorne Brass Despoilers list and looking at ways to run it as actual BoC.  It brought up the general worry that with a smaller board any board edge based ambush going to be easier and easier to screen off.  Fewer units may be an offset but looking at BoC or even FEC summoning this seems to be a potential snag.

I think it depends on what you ambush with. Its easier to screen out hammers sure, but if the purpose of the ambushing unit is just to tag something to prevent it from maneuvering you don't really lose much from only getting a model or two close enough to complete the charge.

Honestly if this is the road gors take all they need to be actually good is  just enough damage to take out chaff screens or retreat and charge. An extra bonus on the charge distance would probably make them great.

[The Red King]

The only thing I like about the beastlord change is putting him into Brass despoilers isn't a waste of time now so that's nice.

 

Plus don't exploding 6's stack so in a desolating brayherd he would get 3 hits for every 6 on a hero wholly within enemy territory? If you CP his 1's then he's better now with the mutating gnarlblade imo. But I still dont see myself using him over a doombull. Not least of which because I usually run my beasts as khorne and cant get the gnarlblade anyway.

[Vaporlocke]

In order to make our brayherd units all fill a role would a complete revamp. Ungor and ungor raiders are fine as is and a useful baseline.

Gor should be our anti-horde unit, an additional base attack and the current bestigor rule about attacking units of 10+ would be a great start to get them there. Maybe give them 2" reach on the charge, call it "kill frenzy" or something badass.

Bestigor should be our anti-elite: 2" reach, 3+/3+, and then some conditional rules like an extra rend and d3 damage vs multiwound models would make them fit the role while not stepping on Gor's toes, this would require a points increase and possibly the loss of being made battleline but I feel like it would be worth it. 

The impact hits on warherd is nice, but I would love to see them get an overrun effect for wiping out units on the charge-- make it scary to try to screen them out with chaff. 

If they want us to stay as the "conditional effect" army that's fine, but the base units need to be good and when they meet the conditions they need to be amazing. Currently we're bad and then when we meet ridiculous conditions we're still ok-ish at best. 

[Maddpainting]

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

@Kamose The rerolling charges was to specifically buff gors and give them some kind of purpose so i'm fine with it not affecting other Gor units.

I think this is an interesting change that actually gives Gors utility, which is more useful than just buffing their damage but I would like to see it taken a step further (maybe an extra +1 to charge or something)

We're getting a smaller board size in aos 3 too, so our ambush covers more of the available space and bringing in a unit of Gors to tag the edge of a unit, where only a couple of enemy models can fight will be a super useful tool that has the potential to repeatedly gum up our opponent's board.

Ambush is going to be much harder actually. Losing 12" means less space to place models, which means less space to have outside of 9". Having played 40k all of 9th with smaller tables, its is noticeable for sure.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

14 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Ambush is going to be much harder actually. Losing 12" means less space to place models, which means less space to have outside of 9". Having played 40k all of 9th with smaller tables, its is noticeable for sure.

This.

exactly my worry unless somehow points, tighter coherency size, etc. somehow compact the space taken up by models in 3e

[Maddpainting]

Points will go up, we have seen some already do so, and Horde discounts seems to be gone. But I do not want 40k Coherency rules, we need it to be over 10 models not over 5 models. That would mean 6 man Bulls had to be in 2 ranks, I do not want all these large based units to be force to be in 2 ranks, it would really kill them unless Ranges change.

[tupavko]

1 minute ago, Maddpainting said:

Points will go up, we have seen some already do so, and Horde discounts seems to be gone. But I do not want 40k Coherency rules, we need it to be over 10 models not over 5 models. That would mean 6 man Bulls had to be in 2 ranks, I do not want all these large based units to be force to be in 2 ranks, it would really kill them unless Ranges change.

That would mean that GW actually does know how army works... 🤣🤣🤣

I've lost all hope in BoC army until the new book... I do feel we are behind the corner but still, I am always afraid when it comes to our rules update. 

[Lord Krungharr]

On 5/28/2021 at 10:44 AM, tupavko said:

Ok guys so we have new KEYWORD abilities in Kragnos:

Gors (unit not keyword)can repeat charge rolls if they were set in ambush

WARHERDS get to roll on a charge and on a 4+ they deal d3 mortal wounds (add 2 if they are a HER0 or more than 3)

THUNDERSCORN roll a dice at the end of  a combat fase on a 4+ you can heal one wound (add 2 if it's a hero or there are more than 3 models); then roll for each enemey unit within 1'' on a 4+ they suffer 1 mortal wound (add 2 if hero or more than 3 models)

These are in addition the the other rules we already have

 

Do these apply if using a Blades of Khorne army with Brass Despoilers?

Also is there a leak somewhere saying that battalions are going away?  I keep seeing mentions of this but no blurry pictures or anything.  Cuz then I pretty much won't be using my Beasts at all as Beasts of Khorne is my preferred and only winning way of running my Bullgor heavy forces.

[Maddpainting]

7 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Do these apply if using a Blades of Khorne army with Brass Despoilers?

Also is there a leak somewhere saying that battalions are going away?  I keep seeing mentions of this but no blurry pictures or anything.  Cuz then I pretty much won't be using my Beasts at all as Beasts of Khorne is my preferred and only winning way of running my Bullgor heavy forces.

Some Rumors are we can't use none "Core" Battalions for Match play anymore. GW has already said there will be a list of Core Battalions in the new core rules, but also has not said anything else, so its just rumors for now.

[decker_cky]

On 5/28/2021 at 8:38 PM, Ganigumo said:

Old BL damage vs a 4+:

Normal: 2.07

Vs hero: 2.77

New BL damage vs a 4+:

Normal: 1.78

Vs hero:2.22

He's still weak because in order to get any kind of utility out of him we need to:

1. Kill a model with the beastlord

2. Have a brayherd unit within 18" (easy)

3. Have the beastlord not die by our next activation

4. Have our other brayherd unit not die by our next activation

Not needing to spend a CP is nice, but the buff is weaker and still way too difficult to pull off.

This seems like a completely lateral move to me, but then his points went up too.

Your math is wrong for a beastlord. It averages more hits now than it used to. 6 attacks with the new warscroll will average 5 hits, whereas the current warscroll averages 4.67 hits.

Only downgrade is vs heroes, losing reroll to wound. 

Bigger buff for beastlords in brass despoilers, obviously, where it has both exploding hits and reroll 1s. 

Run and charge is a relevant buff, as is making grisly trophies a non-command ability. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by decker_cky

[Ganigumo]

12 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Your math is wrong for a beastlord. It averages more hits now than it used to. 6 attacks with the new warscroll will average 5 hits, whereas the current warscroll averages 4.67 hits.

Only downgrade is vs heroes, losing reroll to wound. 

Bigger buff for beastlords in brass despoilers, obviously, where it has both exploding hits and reroll 1s. 

Run and charge is a relevant buff, as is making grisly trophies a non-command ability. 

The exploding hits are only against heroes not all the time. I ran it through a combat calculator.

[Maddpainting]

2 hours ago, decker_cky said:

Your math is wrong for a beastlord. It averages more hits now than it used to. 6 attacks with the new warscroll will average 5 hits, whereas the current warscroll averages 4.67 hits.

Only downgrade is vs heroes, losing reroll to wound. 

Bigger buff for beastlords in brass despoilers, obviously, where it has both exploding hits and reroll 1s. 

Run and charge is a relevant buff, as is making grisly trophies a non-command ability. 

Except he has to fight first and stay alive after he fights before you pick Bestigors to fight. To get in a save spot and wholly within 18" is pretty freaking hard. I haven't been even able to use it and keep him live in over a year of games.

[decker_cky]

3 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

The exploding hits are only against heroes not all the time. I ran it through a combat calculator.

Ahhh, i was factoring in exploding 6s in all hits. Brutal. That means they're worst offensively against all targets. 

[Vaporlocke]

11 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Ahhh, i was factoring in exploding 6s in all hits. Brutal. That means they're worst offensively against all targets. 

Rerun it when equipped with some of them various magic weapons, there's never a reason to bring one naked. 

[Maddpainting]

3 hours ago, Vaporlocke said:

Rerun it when equipped with some of them various magic weapons, there's never a reason to bring one naked. 

I have no reason to bring one at all anymore lol.

[Lord Krungharr]

Did Cockatrices change at all with the BR book?  Or is an army full of those still a 'viable' thing?  It's just so ridiculous, but I wouldn't mind trying the flock for giggles.  

 

[Maddpainting]

Not everything is in the BR book, only a few things. No leaks has shown anything else other than what was already posted, so it is safe to assume nothing else. That also doesn't mean they will stay in our new book. Before you go and buy lots of them consider that. 

If you do get a couple and they do go away, they can be converted into something else.

[Marius au]

I am glad that we got an update and mentioned (for a while it looked like we were forgotten).  Still have no idea why they decided the Jabber warscroll was 1 of the 2 that needed to be updated though (would have thought the plastic DO's or Gors would have made more sense).

Like most of you these aren't going to instantly make Beasts more competitive, but they are free improvements (maybe some opportunity cost). 

[Alan Mandelson]

Anyone know what the make up of the new battalion is?

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Alan Mandelson said:

Anyone know what the make up of the new battalion is?

I think it's brayshaman (named) 2 units of bullgor (no idea if they have to be 3 man) and a singular ghorgon.

 

Also I just wanted to say that I really appreciate how a bottom tier army with outdated models and little love in the lore still manages to spawn such an active and supportive community of players.

 

I love my Cities and Skaven armies but the BoC thread is just much more active despite being arguably "worse" and though I love my wood elves coming from nowhere and turning something into a pincushion while a line of dracoth slam into them, theres a different joy in pushing gor around the table with a "okay kill em" attitude while I line up the next wave to charge into the engaged enemy.

[Lord Krungharr]

I think the new BR BoC battalion lets the Bullgors from the battalion get a +1 to hit whilst within 12" (probably wholly within).  And thought I saw Warherds do D3 MW on the charge on a 4+.  Something I guess.

With that Turnskin story, I hope we can mutate things in our next tome, besides just into Spawn, which I also like.  

Finally got a named character with that BR shaman though!  Hopefully we get one for each hero type eventually to do great things....unspeakable, but great.

[Alan Mandelson]

28 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think the new BR BoC battalion lets the Bullgors from the battalion get a +1 to hit whilst within 12" (probably wholly within).  And thought I saw Warherds do D3 MW on the charge on a 4+.  Something I guess.

With that Turnskin story, I hope we can mutate things in our next tome, besides just into Spawn, which I also like.  

Finally got a named character with that BR shaman though!  Hopefully we get one for each hero type eventually to do great things....unspeakable, but great.

The Warheard do impact hits (4+ does d3 MW, add 2 if unit is a character or has 3+ models) was the new additional allegiance ability.