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AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion


Gaz Taylor

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32 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

If we could only use other dice besides D6s.  Like if Bullgors hit on a 3+/D4, and wounded on a 3+/D20, that would make much more sense!

A 3+ on a D4 is the same as a 4+ on a D6. Meanwhile 3+ on a D20 is almost twice as good as 2+ on a D6 and I don't know what adding a bunch of D20 to the game would really improve.

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3 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

A 3+ on a D4 is the same as a 4+ on a D6. Meanwhile 3+ on a D20 is almost twice as good as 2+ on a D6 and I don't know what adding a bunch of D20 to the game would really improve.

Yeah that was my point.  Cuz bullgors should almost always be wounding IF they hit.   

Using dice besides D6s wouldn’t really change the system.  Just changes the probabilities.   

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I do play a wargame including a lot of D20 Rolls (Infinity, pretty amazing tactical skirmish game with gorgeous miniatures) I dont think I would want that dice system in AoS to be completely honest. The RnG with those can be absurd sometimes and the curve between meh, and explosively amazing rolls is pretty drastic.

I think the D6 system is pretty good for a game that uses such big number of miniatures in a single as AoS does, and wouldnt really want to change that.

Alternative take on Damage for Bullgors and DO, could be multipliers of D3 rather tahn D6.

Kinda like the CoS Hellstorm Rockets have: Dmg 3D3. So there is always a minimum roll of multiple wounds guaranteed, with potential high ceiling.

Though I dont really think the Damage is the issue with Bullgors. I think all they really need is more attacks. One on the profile and one from some sort of "In the turn they successfully charged into combat you get +1A to all your weapon profiles" (horns included). Would have similar weight of the Ogor charge who deal MW instead, just in a different way.

It would make the the good old Glasshammers of old, when watching Bullgors charge was a scary moment.

Meanwhile Dragon Ogors could be even more tanky (3+ save with 5++ for MW) meat grinders that can get stuck in there and just wither bunch of attack while dishing out respectable damage.

Oh and Bullgors with Great Axes should absolutely have 2" range. We are talking about a big monster with arms as long as a man swinging around long poles. You cant tell me having reach of 1" makes sense. (And it would open a lot more options for the two handed minotaur builds).

Edited by Myrdin
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There's definitely limits to the granularity that a D6 system can achieve with dice rolls.  In the past 40k and Sigmar have sometimes tried to overcome this by increasing the number of dice rolls.  If your Stormcast Eternal has a 4+, then it dies half the time, not very heroic right? So what if we let it ignore wounds on a 4+; now it only dies 25% of the time!  And if its a HERO with a bodyguard rule to pass off wounds on a 4+, it only suffers wounds 12.5% of the time!  Woot except you've just required 3x as much dice rolling all at once.  It becomes unwieldy especially when dealing with dozens of dice rolls at the same time.

I really appreciate how the design team is trying other approaches to represent characteristics like toughness without adding dice rolls for example Seraphon's -1D scaly skin rule.  Spreading out dice rolls to other phases helps as well.  With that in mind, I think that fixing our units, Gors especially, cannot be just matter of fixing their statline.  The number of attacks Gors need to over their base size handicap would be ridiculous.  They should definitely have more attacks (2 minimum up to three or four with buffs) but I'd like them to really emphasize the overwhelming berserker style of combat we have.  

Beasts should hit like a literal stampede but if the enemy doesn't break and we get stuck in a prolonged combat then we lose.  So why not add impact hits to our charge phase as an army wide rule?  I would like to see automatic wounds (not mortal wounds) based on the number of enemy models within a 1/2" of a Beasts model that charged this turn. If one gor hit two models then it causes two wounds.  Automatic wounds seems fair because the enemy still gets a save so its most effective against the light to medium infantry Gors should target and they are just big sheep-dudes not literal tons of muscle like Bullgors.  Let Bullgors, Dragon Ogors, and monsters deal mortal wounds on the charge.  

Impact hits is thematic, has room for scaling based on model size and role, and increases our damage potential while spreading out the dice rolls.  However, in my made-up Battletome, Ungors do not get this rule.  They are small, weak, and have no horns to speak of.  They are chaff and exist to die and certainly not to compete with Gors for damage output in any way.  That's just my two cents.

🐐

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So going off rumor numbers for USD, it will save you about $40, basically a free Bullgor kit. 

Shaman x1
Bullgors x6
Cygor x1 (Should be the dual kit, it didn't save that but I'm going to assume its both) 

Rumor price is 90€, USD should be 127 (So it could be 124.25, 130, 129, etc.. it'll be around there), the USD price total of the models are $169.

I personally won't get this unless there is something else with it like a unique Shaman, as I already have 6 Start Collecting boxes, i really don't need more shamans or behemoths.

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19 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

So going off rumor numbers for USD, it will save you about $40, basically a free Bullgor kit. 

Shaman x1
Bullgors x6
Cygor x1 (Should be the dual kit, it didn't save that but I'm going to assume its both) 

Rumor price is 90€, USD should be 127 (So it could be 124.25, 130, 129, etc.. it'll be around there), the USD price total of the models are $169.

I personally won't get this unless there is something else with it like a unique Shaman, as I already have 6 Start Collecting boxes, i really don't need more shamans or behemoths.

The savings are potentially even more than that (in the UK at least) when you consider 3rd party sellers as the contents individually are 'GW direct' rather than normal stock lines.  These products only get at best a 10% reduction from 3rd parties, where as this set will be available for 25% off. Basically means if you are buying it for the Bullgors, the Cygor and Shaman will be free. 

I agree thats not much use if you already have that many SC, but i only have 2 SC, so will likely pick up 2 of these new sets.

Edited by stato
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Unpopular opinion warning:

 

I'd actually be fine with BoC being a "challenge" army like Goblins in Blood Bowl; if they actually transparently marketed them that way.  Narratively they are just there to threaten and horrify civilans, keep Order armies from overexpanding and demonstrate the ways other factions shine. I'd be happier if they designed one highly competitive build and the rest of the book holding to that narrative. I think thats a completely valid narrative space.

Of course, id welcome changes to level the playing field, particularly ways to make monsters more playable. Or at least give ambushing units substantial bonuses. OMaybe give us a couple unique unnamed units (like the loreseeker in LRL) that give big buffs. Something like the Icebrow Hunter would be awesome. And Warherd should be in at least the top tier, if not the individual gold standard for impact hit efficiency. It would also be nice if they redesigned Gors as our Wound Efficiency unit, and then put Ungors in at least B-Tier horde bonus(since 32 mils just fundamentally dont work in hordes). Heck, they could just straight up rip off the Squigs base stats for Gors except with bigger move and no Squigs Go Wild!

At least its not as massive a blunder as the Stormcast or to a lesser extent, pre-battletome Slaves to Darkness rules implementation.

Edited by Sinfullyvannila
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On 5/19/2021 at 1:05 PM, Televiper11 said:

Bullgors do have a pretty sweet dmg output when buffed but I’d like to see them have a better save.

Not a bad idea.  4+ wouldn't be terrible.  

On 5/19/2021 at 2:01 PM, Chaos Shepard said:

I know some people would want Bullgors to go to 3x3 to hit and wound. My problem with this is twofold. First is that 3x3 is way to common at this point, its almost meaningless. 

Lacking reach on the Great Axe (which is what 3" long IRL?) is probably a significant factor on running them 3s vs 6s.  I've had them survive surprisingly long vs Chaos Dwarfs (last game of pure warherd, admitted not a great test).  But I tookthree units of 6.  Reach is still the biggest factor in Kurnoth Hunters as well.  There was a good build in 6th edition for Khorne Minotaurs of 4-man units.  They had a bucket of attacks, were Core troops and provided free dispel dice.  I still long to see Bullgors/WArherds operate that way.  3-4 Bullgors being utterly smashy and deadly on the charge.  (instead of whiffing...)

On 5/20/2021 at 4:23 AM, Maddpainting said:

Honestly, i am fine with being the army that hits on 4's as long as we make up for it in another way.

Well that's my point.  In 8th edition they were an elite horde.  Minotaurs used to have a solid WS and it went more generic at the weight of more dmg, rend and better to-wound.  Then this book the cmd ability was changed from within 15" to one unit wholly within, what 6? 12?  does it matter?  It was dumb.  So we either want dirt cheap Bullgors as is, or better synergy in the army to compensate dice spiking and weaker stats.  By the way if goblins can be made to hit on 4s, Bullgors hitting on 4s is outright stupid.  I've hit twice with 6 Bullgors attacking before.  Hitting on 4s can feel like hitting on 6s.

On 5/24/2021 at 6:45 AM, Maddpainting said:

So going off rumor numbers for USD, it will save you about $40, basically a free Bullgor kit. 

I have 24 Bullgors.  I want better sculpts not more of the same old ones :P

On 5/24/2021 at 9:24 AM, Chaos Shepard said:

If we are getting a box/battalion I wonder what part Beast of Chaos gets to play in the narrative.

There are a lot of novellas or possibly even shorter stories being released.  Perhaps there will be some continuing thread from the campaign books there?

21 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I hadn't considered warscroll fixes. Though I don't want to get my hopes up.

Don't worry, they won't 😉

 

13 hours ago, Kramig said:

I expect just a warscroll battalion with units in the box

I'm wondering if they will be decent starters for "AoS 3 Crusade" or,.. well maybe they will keep the Path to Glory name.

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2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Well that's my point.  In 8th edition they were an elite horde.  Minotaurs used to have a solid WS and it went more generic at the weight of more dmg, rend and better to-wound.  Then this book the cmd ability was changed from within 15" to one unit wholly within, what 6? 12?  does it matter?  It was dumb.  So we either want dirt cheap Bullgors as is, or better synergy in the army to compensate dice spiking and weaker stats.  By the way if goblins can be made to hit on 4s, Bullgors hitting on 4s is outright stupid.  I've hit twice with 6 Bullgors attacking before.  Hitting on 4s can feel like hitting on 6s.

IDk lol I can rationalize Bullgors hitting on 4+. Bullgors hits on 4's, they are big lingering minded bulls that are swinging wildly and not trained in hitting, so yeah they should hit on 4's but they also should wound easier and deal more damage.  

I just want them to not die to everything in the game. Make them harder to move out of combat and let me live for more than 1 round, then who cares if they hit on 4's, i'm getting twice the attacks out of them.

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