AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Maddpainting]

4 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Everyone has knee-****** negative reactions.  I've played the army for 18 years and ups and downs.  GW has not done a good job supporting the army.  Invariably the best option is to promote whats great and not the hate.  Sure, nothing great in the book but pushing in a positive direction usually gets better results

I want what's elite to play elite.  So Warherd has usable synergies and effective traits to make them compete on the table to a degree that isn't fluff player.  

But,.. thinking about it,.. would I trade a fix for another points drop?  Maybe.  Dirt cheap Warherd units would be kinda interesting to see.     Keep them as horde and price them accordingly.  Quantity over quality even on the "quality" units.  Maybe an utter spam of Doombulls, Bullgors and Ghorgons in ridiculous numbers could work.  

Most likely a book-interim "typo" based on the rules writer being new and not knowing about Tzaangors and how s/he should have put "brayherd" keyword in.  I believe Tzaangors didn't have Brayherd when in the first Tzeentch book.  If there is a new BoC book and GW clues in getting the Brayherd keyword in a new BoC book would hopefully be the expected outcome.

I don't want mortal BoC.  I want Beasts.  Otherwise I would just play Slaves to Darkness.  I want Marked BoC back in a feasible playable manner.  

I've been playing almost pure beasts sense before beast was its own army, I know how GW treats us, i mean we were called the NPC army for a reason lol. 

I'm not being negative, i know how we are treated, so I just hope for points changes, if that means we are not as elite with DO's, Shaggoths, Cygors, etc... and we need to field 2 units instead of 1, thats fine at least I can get them on the table without feeling bad for playing them. Right now I literally feel terrible for playing with some of our units. 

I love the army its why I've collected and played them sense Hordes of Chaos (or was it Champions of chaos?) and I'll never stop but that doesn't mean I wont call out the bad things, even when being positive. 

The problem is we have gotten nothing new and as a community, as good players, we have found what works in our book, there isn't too much left to talk about other than speculation, hopes, and dreams. 

And we honestly are one of the better small communities for being positive, I don't see no where near the negativity as many others.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Maddpainting

[Televiper11]

The Kragnos design just really felt like the design team was rubbing it in our faces. I know that’s not likely to be true. Gavespawn w/Pestilent Throng has been a great list for me; nothing is better than the look of shock on someone’s face when they lose to an army they assume is an auto-win for them — but I’m ready for 3.0 to freshen us up a bit. 

[Vaporlocke]

1 hour ago, Televiper11 said:

The Kragnos design just really felt like the design team was rubbing it in our faces. I know that’s not likely to be true. Gavespawn w/Pestilent Throng has been a great list for me; nothing is better than the look of shock on someone’s face when they lose to an army they assume is an auto-win for them — but I’m ready for 3.0 to freshen us up a bit. 

I've been doing Gavespawn as pure breyherd tucked into a Desolating Beastherd with one extra spawn as a two drop that does well until you've seen its tricks a few times. It's fun and I love it but I'm really tired of having every single fight be stacked against me unless I played perfectly or my opponent is sloppy/doesn't know what I can do. 

[Ganigumo]

5 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah Here is what I would do If I had the power:

Make gors wound on 3s have them attack with 2attacks each.

gors with shields get a 4+ save against all kinds of attacks nit just combat.

gors with two hand weapons are able to reroll all hit rolls.

gors have a range of two inches when their unit size is ten or more.

Gors are in a tricky spot design-wise. Making them good invalidates bestigors, making them cheap invalidates ungors.

What Gors need is to have a distinct role or purpose in the army, just throwing better stats on them won't solve the internal balance issue.

Warhammer weekly's show suggested making them the best at ambushing, but ultimately they need to be good at something that neither ungors or bestigors are good at.

[Televiper11]

12 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Gors are in a tricky spot design-wise. Making them good invalidates bestigors, making them cheap invalidates ungors.

What Gors need is to have a distinct role or purpose in the army, just throwing better stats on them won't solve the internal balance issue.

Warhammer weekly's show suggested making them the best at ambushing, but ultimately they need to be good at something that neither ungors or bestigors are good at.

I see Ungors as chaff/sacrifice; Gors as objective holders; Bestigors as melee blenders. Not sure how much more differentiated they could be without full WS rewrites and special abilities — not that that I’m opposed to that, mind you, it’s just unlikely GW will bother.

[Lord Krungharr]

 

9 hours ago, Popisdead said:

 

But,.. thinking about it,.. would I trade a fix for another points drop?  Maybe.  Dirt cheap Warherd units would be kinda interesting to see.     Keep them as horde and price them accordingly.  Quantity over quality even on the "quality" units.  Maybe an utter spam of Doombulls, Bullgors and Ghorgons in ridiculous numbers could work.  

...

I don't want mortal BoC.  I want Beasts.  Otherwise I would just play Slaves to Darkness.  I want Marked BoC back in a feasible playable manner.  

Interesting; points drops so I could run like 6x6 Bullgors, 3 Doombulls, and 2 Ghorgons?  That would be pretty awesome even at their current stats!

[Vaporlocke]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

Gors are in a tricky spot design-wise. Making them good invalidates bestigors, making them cheap invalidates ungors.

What Gors need is to have a distinct role or purpose in the army, just throwing better stats on them won't solve the internal balance issue.

Warhammer weekly's show suggested making them the best at ambushing, but ultimately they need to be good at something that neither ungors or bestigors are good at.

Off the tip of my head how about rework Bestigors into anti-elite (fewer attacks, change rules, raise damage or rend), make Gors anti-horde (just add more attacks with same damage/rend), keep Ungors as chaff. Now they each have a specific role and you don't really need to adjust points. 

 

Also, can we please get some reach to make up for 32mm bases? Call it blood frenzy or something to represent the back ranks climbing over the front to get into the fight, make it an army rule or whatever. 

[Myrdin]

7 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Gors are in a tricky spot design-wise. Making them good invalidates bestigors, making them cheap invalidates ungors.

What Gors need is to have a distinct role or purpose in the army, just throwing better stats on them won't solve the internal balance issue.

Warhammer weekly's show suggested making them the best at ambushing, but ultimately they need to be good at something that neither ungors or bestigors are good at.

I wouldnt really say that. Put them back to 80pts a pop. 2A each. And the wounding can improve with numbers. There is still a reason to take Bestigors. But this way they could at least pose some type of threat.

Alternatively: the Gors could get a new distinct features. I am a huge fan of giving Gors and Centigors ranged weapons. Throwing weapon with 9" range, 1A 5+ 3+ - 1. Gors could have a rule that allows them to throw their weapons when charging and if charged, thus softening the target. Still give them 2 melee attacks should be a thing though. Centigors could get 2 shots instead with possiby -1 Rend added to the throwing weapon profile, and include Run&Shoot since they have Run&Charge by default.

Its an alternate take on the whole "chaos shooting" thing while its all still just a prelude for Combat. Which seems to be rethought by GW writers with how Slaanesh got decent ranged as well now. It would certainly add up more options and allow for extra pressure from these two units, since for our army, every single Wound dealt counts.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Myrdin

[Maddpainting]

9 hours ago, Televiper11 said:

I see Ungors as chaff/sacrifice; Gors as objective holders; Bestigors as melee blenders. Not sure how much more differentiated they could be without full WS rewrites and special abilities — not that that I’m opposed to that, mind you, it’s just unlikely GW will bother.

The answer to this is easy

Keep Ungors horde, make Gors better 2 atk, 3+ to wound, some other buffs like in 1.0 AOS days, then make Bestigors even more elite.

Gors should be able to stand on their own, should always be out damaging Ungors and should be able to take a hit better, the problem is there's no more toughness, so making them 2W might be a good thing, that or more glass.  There are a lot of things you can do, but we all agree some balancing issues needs to be fix and points wont do that for the 3 not stepping over each others toes.

 

12 hours ago, Televiper11 said:

The Kragnos design just really felt like the design team was rubbing it in our faces. I know that’s not likely to be true. Gavespawn w/Pestilent Throng has been a great list for me; nothing is better than the look of shock on someone’s face when they lose to an army they assume is an auto-win for them — but I’m ready for 3.0 to freshen us up a bit. 

Nah, AOS team just does what they think is cool, good for the greater of the game, has fun story, etc... they most likely did go through a lot of the fluff to make it work a bit better, but they most likely didn't even consider us for that lore and would rather move us in our own direction (Which I assume would be about the same as in lore, we are lost in time kind of on purpose, we still might see some cool things but the backstory is pretty safe).

Edited May 19, 2021 by Maddpainting

[Popisdead]

13 hours ago, Televiper11 said:

I see Ungors as chaff/sacrifice; Gors as objective holders; Bestigors as melee blenders. Not sure how much more differentiated they could be without full WS rewrites and special abilities — not that that I’m opposed to that, mind you, it’s just unlikely GW will bother.

I've been wonderin about Ungors as 20-40,  Gors as 10-23 but 2W and reasonably better at fighting and Bestigors as 2W and just keep them vicious or make them more and 10-20.  I"m not a huge fan of 1W-30 model units as mechanic.  

17 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

 I know how GW treats us, i mean we were called the NPC army for a reason lol. 

NPC army is a good way of putting it.  They constantly feature prominently when they need chaos to die in droves, do counter how good the elite-nature of the better stuff is.  

18 hours ago, Televiper11 said:

In my defense, over my two years of posting in this thread, I’ve been 99% positive. I went 10-4 with BoC in 2020 so I know where it’s strengths are.

No defence needed.  We all get to that point once in a while.  All good

[Popisdead]

12 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

 

Interesting; points drops so I could run like 6x6 Bullgors, 3 Doombulls, and 2 Ghorgons?  That would be pretty awesome even at their current stats!

I would love for Bullgors to be as scary as S* as they are in the iPad games, uh,.. Silver Tower and Hero quest?  like brutally dangerous and hard to chew through.  

[Televiper11]

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I would love for Bullgors to be as scary as S* as they are in the iPad games, uh,.. Silver Tower and Hero quest?  like brutally dangerous and hard to chew through.  

Bullgors do have a pretty sweet dmg output when buffed but I’d like to see them have a better save.

[Chaos Shepard]

I know some people would want Bullgors to go to 3x3 to hit and wound. My problem with this is twofold. First is that 3x3 is way to common at this point, its almost meaningless. Next is that I don't think 3x3 really matches what the Bullgor represents. Bullgors are slow but powerful walls of raw muscle, you best avoid their strike because a glancing blow will send you flying. In that way I would much rather see Bullgors go to 4x2 to hit and wound. Its a bit more swingy than 3x3 but I think it better matchs what a Bullgor should be. Then I would give the Doombull/Beastlord the ability to buff them with a +1 to hit.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Chaos Shepard

[ian0delond]

I have no grief for Kragnos being Destruction.

But the new warscrolls of the "Chaotic Beasts" from Warcry not having the "Beasts of Chaos" keyword? how can they missed that? Why can't I have a fabulous Sphiranx? A Chaos Gargant is fine but not a Raptoryx or a Ogroid Myrmidon? I don't care if Slaves to Darkness can be an ally.

I have been asking myself that for years now.

[Lord Krungharr]

2 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I know some people would want Bullgors to go to 3x3 to hit and wound. My problem with this is twofold. First is that 3x3 is way to common at this point, its almost meaningless. Next is that I don't think 3x3 really matches what the Bullgor represents. Bullgors are slow but powerful walls of raw muscle, you best avoid their strike because a glancing blow will send you flying. In that way I would much rather see Bullgors go to 4x2 to hit and wound. Its a bit more swingy than 3x3 but I think it better matchs what a Bullgor should be. Then I would give the Doombull/Beastlord the ability to buff them with a +1 to hit.

Ooh yeah, the 4+/2+ is the best idea for Bullgors I've heard, and for sure the Doombulls should be buffing their hits.  

For Gors the axe throwing is intriguing, like those Fyreslayer guys but should also be 2 attacks in combat.  

Bestigors, they should be getting 3 attacks, OR when fighting a unit with 3 or more models each Bestigor gets an attack for every enemy model within 3".  That would make up for the 32mm bases.

Anything with visible horns should be doing MW on charges or just extra horn attacks, even a feeble extra one on a 4+/5+ would be something.

Beasts need something akin to the WAAAAAAGH.  Like a Warp Frenzy where the whole army once per game after an enemy unit gets destroyed can pick some sort of army wide effect, or have a random effect (cuz Chaos).

[Chaos Shepard]

I thought it would be interesting if Primordial Call points could serve different purposes similar to the way Korn Blood Tithe can.

[Myrdin]

11 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I know some people would want Bullgors to go to 3x3 to hit and wound. My problem with this is twofold. First is that 3x3 is way to common at this point, its almost meaningless. Next is that I don't think 3x3 really matches what the Bullgor represents. Bullgors are slow but powerful walls of raw muscle, you best avoid their strike because a glancing blow will send you flying. In that way I would much rather see Bullgors go to 4x2 to hit and wound. Its a bit more swingy than 3x3 but I think it better matchs what a Bullgor should be. Then I would give the Doombull/Beastlord the ability to buff them with a +1 to hit.

Well... Ogres though. They too used to be 4+3+ and then got a flat +1to Hit across the board. And Ogress are essentially bullgors to begin with. Hell the Ogres have even their "bitting attack" with better values than Bullgor horns...

Personally I think if we keep the 4+ to Hit, they absolutely need an extra attack or two. Especially when you factor in it would also benefit the Bloodgreed rule. Problem is there are SO MANY abilities that reduce your Hit chance its not even funny so while sure 4+ might be ok with extra attacks, if you are hitting on 6 its no fun.

The problem is Bullgors lost the old Frenzy rule which gave them that extra attack they are now missing. I think if all Bullgor models >Including Doombull and the monster twins, got flat +1A to their main weapon they`d be actually a decent unit.

Its the same as Dragon Ogors going in DMG up to +1 for all weapon profiles. Granted in their case I`d love them to get more expensive but more elite in total, add bunch of special rules to their profile and make them a powerful pressence on the battlefield, so they are their own thing and dont compete with Bullgors for the same "slot" so to say.

This book really needed just small number tweaks on the unit profiles to be pretty good, even with the abyssal lack of any inbetween unit synergies and rules/artifacts that do not bring negatives.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Myrdin

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

Well... Ogres though. They too used to be 4+3+ and then got a flat +1to Hit across the board. And Ogress are essentially bullgors to begin with. Hell the Ogres have even their "bitting attack" with better values than Bullgor horns...

Personally I think if we keep the 4+ to Hit, they absolutely need an extra attack or two. Especially when you factor in it would also benefit the Bloodgreed rule. Problem is there are SO MANY abilities that reduce your Hit chance its not even funny so while sure 4+ might be ok with extra attacks, if you are hitting on 6 its no fun.

The problem is Bullgors lost the old Frenzy rule which gave them that extra attack they are now missing. I think if all Bullgor models >Including Doombull and the monster twins, got flat +1A to their main weapon they`d be actually a decent unit.

Its the same as Dragon Ogors going in DMG up to +1 for all weapon profiles. Granted in their case I`d love them to get more expensive but more elite in total, add bunch of special rules to their profile and make them a powerful pressence on the battlefield, so they are their own thing and dont compete with Bullgors for the same "slot" so to say.

This book really needed just small number tweaks on the unit profiles to be pretty good, even with the abyssal lack of any inbetween unit synergies and rules/artifacts that do not bring negatives.

Beasts overall need an update.

I’ve enjoined a few many games with them, yet they seem so lackluster currently.

most armies don’t even know what it means to hit at a 4+ yet beasts seem to be stuck on that with almost no chance to make it better.

I would actually like to see gors become the melee horde blenders.

While ungors are kept at a chaff level of support.

considering that Beastmen always had a huge problem with high armoured troops, why not just make the bestigors the heavy killers choice.

make them hit on threes, give their axes a range of two inches, allow them to reroll hit rolls of 1 against units with a armour save of 4+ or better.

give them -2 rend and 2damage against units woth two or more wounds

dragon ogors should be devastating.

with their dragon scales and heavy

 armour it is kinda confusing why they got stuck on a save of 4+.

Just give them a 3+ save. Have them reroll save rolls of 1 against attacks made by units with 1or less wound models.

add an extra layer of damage to their weapons.

Let glaive have a rend characteristic of -2 instead of -1 and two handed weapons at -1

amd their savage claws attacks really should be able to wound stuff on 3s with a -1 rend, although damage can  at least be kept at 1.

Bullgors should be this incredible killer units that just destroys stuff by l touching them.

 

I would actually love seeing their to hit roll stay at a 4+ considering, that they are pretty savage and only care to feast, but I would like to see every single weapon options to get an extra 2 attacks.

give them the ogor charge 

but keep their save low, they are afterall the glasscannon unit in lore, and should be that too in the game. 
sadly that is it for now, considering that I have to go back to work.

So maybe I’ll be writing a few more thoughts down this evening, 

Or tomorrow when I’m traveling to school

[Maddpainting]

Honestly, i am fine with being the army that hits on 4's as long as we make up for it in another way.

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

snip

I pretty much agree. Our elite stuff doesnt feel elite, but is not priced as a non elite either.

Not sure what you meant with Gors being the "blenders". That one kinda got lost in the translation for me 😛

[Vaporlocke]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

I pretty much agree. Our elite stuff doesnt feel elite, but is not priced as a non elite either.

Not sure what you meant with Gors being the "blenders". That one kinda got lost in the translation for me 😛

He means make Gors have a lot of attacks' so that they chop up enemy light infantry. 

[Skreech Verminking]

5 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Honestly, i am fine with being the army that hits on 4's as long as we make up for it in another way.

I would actually love to see more stuff to come back at hitting on fours.

Currently it seems like gw has made a trend of making some armies just ridiculous when it comes down to hitting stuff.

for example, why would a Ogor, that just found a club, hit stuff better than a Druchi who has been training the last 100years with a sword.

 

[Ganigumo]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I would actually love to see more stuff to come back at hitting on fours.

Currently it seems like gw has made a trend of making some armies just ridiculous when it comes down to hitting stuff.

for example, why would a Ogor, that just found a club, hit stuff better than a Druchi who has been training the last 100years with a sword.

 

Club big.
Sword small.

[Skreech Verminking]

26 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Club big.
Sword small.

Stone from cygor bigger, yet he seems to be hitting on a 4

[Skreech Verminking]

37 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Club big.
Sword small.

But wouldn’t a bigger thing mean better at wounding stuff, rather then hitting,

And as for the tiny sword, yer bigger ya are, yer easier it is to hit ya, yer harder it is to wound ya.

as for the big guy, wouldn't it be like:
Yer smaller ya are, yer harder it is to hit ya, yer easier..... splush

never mind your already dead