AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 hours ago, The Red King said:

Slaangor have the beasts of chaos keyword but at a glance they are just worse than bestigor and dont benefit from BoC in any way that Bestigor don't. That's just my initial read though.

It really depends on how they're pointed. Im not gonna hold my breath but if they're around 100 i'd consider running one of them.

[Fyrenn]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

It really depends on how they're pointed. Im not gonna hold my breath but if they're around 100 i'd consider running one of them.

they're much higher than that.  (let's say about 40% higher).

 

 

[Televiper11]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:28 PM, Death1942 said:

Finally assembling by beasts.  Now I want flexibility to run 10 mans as well as big blocks of ungors but I really don't want to assemble and paint 8 standard bearers.  How do people normally go with wysiwyg when swapping between the unit sizes?

Also I absolutely do not want to assemble the musician or standard bearer on my bullgors (the axes look way better).  How do people represent those things on these models?  Do you glue the drums and standard to the back of one of the bullgors?

I glue the drum to their belt

Edited February 13, 2021 by Televiper11

[Maddpainting]

I did the same thing. I hate them holding the Drums so I put it on the back side of the belt too.

[Lord Krungharr]

For my old heavy metal Bullgors, they have mutated and adapted....

[Chaos Shepard]

I am genuinely impressed with how bad the Slaangors are.  I can normally make an excuse to field some of an army's bad units but I can not make any kind of justification for these. Those thinking that they might be good in a Hedonites list would be sorely mistaken, at least according to my friend who plays Slaanesh. Who know, maybe they will get a rework when the Beast of Chaos book gets updated.

[Enoby]

4 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I am genuinely impressed with how bad the Slaangors are.  I can normally make an excuse to field some of an army's bad units but I can not make any kind of justification for these. Those thinking that they might be good in a Hedonites list would be sorely mistaken, at least according to my friend who plays Slaanesh. Who know, maybe they will get a rework when the Beast of Chaos book gets updated.

I think there are a few of us on the Hedonites thread thinking about writing into the rules team about them after playing some games with them. I'd recommend, if anyone here would like to see them changing too, you do the same after experimenting with their rules

[Carnith]

Yeah Slaangors aren't great. Talking with @Chaos Shepard IRL, I hope your book fixes them... cause yikes...

Edited February 16, 2021 by Carnith
wrong thread, but edit'd to add.

[Popisdead]

On 2/10/2021 at 3:18 PM, Maddpainting said:

I just summon them or get them from heroes.

You can summon one next to 10 Ambushing Bestigors in Gavespawn and really work something over piling on the CP.  

On 2/12/2021 at 11:55 AM, Ganigumo said:

I wanted to go in on these guys but there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to, I might still get a box to paint up, and maybe broken realms will bring something to make these guys perform a bit better in BoC allegiance.

I wouldn't even bother comparing them.  They are 140 points of sexy models and bad rules.  The advantage of them over Bullgors is they have higher number of attacks.  So Swingy dice makes the bullgors suffer bad.  Also I wouldn't compare a "Gor" to a Bullgor. as rend and high dmg is what makes the Bullgors.  Slaangors are just gors with slaaneshes "touch".  They are meant to fall in line with Daemonettes (stats profile wise) which are still better and a better comparison.  

I'm probably going to buy a box to just paint up cause I quite like the models.   

[Siphon]

7 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

 

I'm probably going to buy a box to just paint up cause I quite like the models.   

This and, I think I might proxy them in as Tzaangor on foot.  Never wanted to “waste “the disc to make the foot version.  It’ll at least give me a chance to use the Slaangor models because they are really nice.  

[Derptau]

I've been wracking my brain on how I could possibly use them, and the only thing that comes to mind is the same way I'd use enlightened on foot: Surrounded by some gor or bestigor on a spot I want someone to charge me at. Otherwise I just can't find any use for them at 140pts

 

[Ganigumo]

40 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

You can summon one next to 10 Ambushing Bestigors in Gavespawn and really work something over piling on the CP.  

I wouldn't even bother comparing them.  They are 140 points of sexy models and bad rules.  The advantage of them over Bullgors is they have higher number of attacks.  So Swingy dice makes the bullgors suffer bad.  Also I wouldn't compare a "Gor" to a Bullgor. as rend and high dmg is what makes the Bullgors.  Slaangors are just gors with slaaneshes "touch".  They are meant to fall in line with Daemonettes (stats profile wise) which are still better and a better comparison.  

I'm probably going to buy a box to just paint up cause I quite like the models.   

I generally like doing comparisons among "weight classes" (more of a size/visual/point comparison) but I definitely agree. Profile-wise I agree they are more comparable to bestigors/daemonettes but are worse. If they were pointed around the same as daemonettes/bestigors they might be a little more interesting. 

Also who thought giving them an end of combat ability on that bulk was a good idea? Its not even a particularly strong one.

[Popisdead]

13 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

I generally like doing comparisons among "weight classes" (more of a size/visual/point comparison) but I definitely agree. Profile-wise I agree they are more comparable to bestigors/daemonettes but are worse. If they were pointed around the same as daemonettes/bestigors they might be a little more interesting. 

Also who thought giving them an end of combat ability on that bulk was a good idea? Its not even a particularly strong one.

The problem is Bullgors are a can opener and Slaangors are a DP generator.  That just means any (traditionally speaking) "ogre model" is a comparison which,.. it isn't.

[Ganigumo]

28 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

The problem is Bullgors are a can opener and Slaangors are a DP generator.  That just means any (traditionally speaking) "ogre model" is a comparison which,.. it isn't.

Its a visual/narrative thing. Slaangor are on 40mm bases, come in 3s for 140 points are are fairly large. From a visual, pointing, and narrative perspective they give the impression they're intended to be a heavy hitting shock unit (stuff like bullgors and Trolls). 
From the Slaangor store page:
 

Quote

Though they look almost delicate, these savage beasts hit with hurricane force. Possessed of both speed and unnatural strength, even a small unit can effectively harass foes, while a concerted attack can break even the largest formations.

If the unit performed well as alternate bestigor/daemonettes this would still be a case of ludonarrative dissonance, since the narrative is trying to tell us the unit performs one way, when they actually perform another way.  Even if they were reduced in points to where they were playable/good the dissonance between the narrative and the rules would still exist.

 

As it stands now though they just aren't really good at anything, even DP generation, since the new depravity rules don't depend on multi-wound models.

[Popisdead]

19 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

As it stands now though they just aren't really good at anything, even DP generation, since the new depravity rules don't depend on multi-wound models.

You need to generate 1W and not slay a unit.  You are saying this unit cannot achieve this?  

 I dunno, I guess I just see it differently.  Being a huge fan of both BoC and HoS I'm disappointed Slaangors are more desirable (pun intended).  

I also think you are giving them that narrative.  I would see them as lithe, graceful and deadly (the latter being metaphorical more than stats wise).  As for GWs description,.. heh,.. .shrugs GW has never paralleled lore to stats.  What you quoted is literally just a marketing advertisement.  

[Ganigumo]

Just now, Popisdead said:

You need to generate 1W and not slay a unit.  You are saying this unit cannot achieve this?  

 I dunno, I guess I just see it differently.  Being a huge fan of both BoC and HoS I'm disappointed Slaangors are more desirable (pun intended).  

I also think you are giving them that narrative.  I would see them as lithe, graceful and deadly (the latter being metaphorical more than stats wise).  As for GWs description,.. heh,.. .shrugs GW has never paralleled lore to stats.  What you quoted is literally just a marketing advertisement.  

Yeah they can do wounds and generate depravity, but they aren't really better at it than anything else so I wouldn't count it as a positive.

GW has a major issue with this kind of narrative dissonance, as a Giant player I'm still a bit baffled about the low damage (I know many low damage attacks are mathematically better than a small number of high damage ones). There are plenty of things that do nail the narrative and rules though, even on an army-wide basis, Ironjawz is probably the best example.

Yeah it is an advertisement, but its a description of what the unit should do, there's a difference between marketing overselling a bad unit, and them misrepresenting it, but I'm not about to defend the consistency of GWs marketing.

 

Overall it just looks like they had no idea what to do with the unit when it came down to the rules, Hedonites certainly could've used a bullgor equivalent unit (which is part of why I think that's what the intention was for slaangors) but we'll never probably never know. Maybe the Errata will give them rend 2 though? A unit with tons of low damage, high rend attacks would be pretty unique and would feel fitting.

[Chaos Shepard]

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I wouldn't even bother comparing them.  They are 140 points of sexy models and bad rules.  The advantage of them over Bullgors is they have higher number of attacks.  So Swingy dice makes the bullgors suffer bad.  Also I wouldn't compare a "Gor" to a Bullgor. as rend and high dmg is what makes the Bullgors.  Slaangors are just gors with slaaneshes "touch".  They are meant to fall in line with Daemonettes (stats profile wise) which are still better and a better comparison.  

The problem is that they don't have more attacks. Bullgors with the smaller axes have the same base number of attacks that hit and wound the same Only with 1 better damage. The Slaangors do get +1 attack on the charge but Bulls also have 2 additional horn attacks a piece. On top of that if you have the smaller ax you are also going to have a better save or re-rolling 1s to hit. The only advantage they have over Bullgors is +2 movement. But if you still dont want to compare them to Bullgors, then lets compare them to an appropriate gor unit, I'm talking Enlightened on foot. Their profiles are near identical as well, only the Enlightened have +1 damage, added beak attacks, and cost 40pts less. Again the Slaangor's only advantage is +2 movement.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Chaos Shepard

[Myrdin]

So the Slaangors suck ?

Well color me dissapointed but not surprised tbh >___>

[Popisdead]

18 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

The problem is that they don't have more attacks. Bullgors with the smaller axes have the same base number of attacks that hit and wound the same Only with 1 better damage. The Slaangors do get +1 attack on the charge but Bulls also have 2 additional horn attacks a piece. On top of that if you have the smaller ax you are also going to have a better save or re-rolling 1s to hit. The only advantage they have over Bullgors is +2 movement. But if you still dont want to compare them to Bullgors, then lets compare them to an appropriate gor unit, I'm talking Enlightened on foot. Their profiles are near identical as well, only the Enlightened have +1 damage, added beak attacks, and cost 40pts less. Again the Slaangor's only advantage is +2 movement.

again,... why are people comparing them?  

[The Red King]

What do you want to compare them to? Is there any unit that provides worse points value? For 140 points they deal less damage than a 90 point unit of bleakswords and are less survivable. A 90 point battleline unit. It doesn't matter what you compare Slaangor against, they are a bad unit with bad points cost.

[Salyx]

I like the Slaangor special rules. They are pretty bad on the offensive and defensive side, however, they are a good Horde killer. Have them around 3" of a big blob of Berserkers or Marauders or Goblins or Mortek Guard or Clanrats and they will do Tons of damage Enlightened could dream of. If we had this Ability as a spell ( for every Model in the unit on a 4+ take a Mortal wound), it would be an Auto-include. 

I think as well that they are too expensive at 140. Nevertheless, they have their uses in specific scenarios and matchups. 

[Chaos Shepard]

5 hours ago, Popisdead said:

again,... why are people comparing them?  

Bullgors(with smaller Axe) and Slaangors : Both Beast of Chaos / Same point cost / Same number of models / Same base armor save / Same base bravery / Roughly the same number of attacks

Tzaangor Enlightened(on foot) and Slaangors: Both Beast of Chaos / Same number of models / Same number of wounds / Same armor save / Same bravery / Roughly the same number of attacks

Bullgors are tougher and deal more damage

Enlightened are cheaper and deal more damage

The only advantage Slaangors seem to have is a higher base movement. However, I looked at Bullgors' profile again and the Slaangors only have +1 inch on them in movement which the Bullgors kind of negate with having +1 on the charge, and while the Enlightened have 2 less movement they can gain +3 movement from a Brayherd Shaman. So ya Slaangors only have a speed advantage in a very limited sense.

Listen, I don't want Slaangors to suck but its the facts. I will admit that I am limited in approaching this strictly from a Beast of Chaos perspective. It might be that they are a little better in a Slaanesh list though my friend who plays Slaanesh is of the opinion that they are bad there too, take that with a grain of salt. 

3 hours ago, Salyx said:

I like the Slaangor special rules. They are pretty bad on the offensive and defensive side, however, they are a good Horde killer. Have them around 3" of a big blob of Berserkers or Marauders or Goblins or Mortek Guard or Clanrats and they will do Tons of damage Enlightened could dream of. If we had this Ability as a spell ( for every Model in the unit on a 4+ take a Mortal wound), it would be an Auto-include. 

I think as well that they are too expensive at 140. Nevertheless, they have their uses in specific scenarios and matchups. 

You might what to re-read their ability. They don't deal mortal wounds based on the number of models in the enemy unit, they deal mortal wounds based on the number of models in the Slaangor unit.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Chaos Shepard

[Carnith]

4 hours ago, Popisdead said:

again,... why are people comparing them?  

They are comparing them because they are comparable. As @Chaos Shepard has already stated, they are similar unit size, but bulls outdamage them, and enlightened on foot outdamage them for cheaper. Slaangor gain hardly any benefit within BoC. 

Like, even from a lore perspective of them being gor, they are still lousy when compared to enlightened, another 3 wound, 5+ save unit. Slaangor not having brayherd just stops them from having more synergies in the army. 

[Derptau]

Yup. Just confused in general about what they were thinking.

[Death1942]

Question about Ungor set up/List structure.  Do you take two units of raiders for the initial extra screen distance and deploy on the front of your line to extend your wall of chaff a bit?  Do you still take regular Ungors for sacrificing/sitting on objectives with the shields for extra saves?  If you run 30 more Ungor raiders that aren't supposed to screen do you split them up into smaller units to split enemy attacks or do you group it up into a big blob?  (Might be different answer if Darkwalkers). 

For reference my current lists is looking like 30 Raiders and 20 Regular Ungors.