AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[TheArborealWalrus]

16 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

which GW would give updates to other factions.

17 hours ago, Myrdin said:

I wonder if the reason for such a swift re-release was to fix the issues with the army without FAQ as well as bolster the sales of the new models.

Kind of unusual, but this could be a story based decision, started a while ago. Unfortunately for us, it would be rather challenging to get a release for the non slaanesh factions when the plot is revolving around the god's awakening.  We could see an idoneth type update for us  in conjunction with the story book, but I'm not holding my breath.

14 hours ago, Myrdin said:

They are kinda... lacking ? Dissapointing ?

I like them personally. I don't have any plans to expand my slaanesh mortals at this time but I don't have a problem with them. They looked a bit too similar to the direchasm model for me, but that's probably a good thing. As far as posing goes, I'm not going to judge it until we have the sprue. I do get not liking the claw(s), they aren't for everyone. Hopefully it will not need to break into the bits bin to work them out. I'm seeing several minor heroes being released. It'd be real nice if we got stuff but , I'd settle for just the one unit. Any love is better than the none we've been getting.  Overall I'm taking the sit and wait approach. Too many good GW modeles ruined by bad paint schemes  We'll see how they stack up when they're finally released. 

[Myrdin]

4 hours ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

 Hopefully it will not need to break into the bits bin to work them out.

I wonder which bits all across AoS and possibly 40K would fit as replacements for their pincer arms though. The sleek elongated type of limbs these fellas have... I am not sure whether there is anything that could in their place.
I mean they do remind of Tyranid Warrior limbs, so they might work but with those you would have the chitin plating pop out quite a lot (could be painted as armor I suppose).

Now that being said, it doesnt have to be the entirety of the army, I think cutting it off in the elbow to remove the pincer should suffice, but if there is a whole fitting arm, it might be easier to work it into from the shoulder joint rather than cutting into it.

Can you figure out any fitting replacement from other kits for those pincer arms  ?

[TheArborealWalrus]

3 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Can you figure out any fitting replacement from other kits for those pincer arms  ?

My first thought was crypt horrors, but then I'm thinking they're closer to  minotaur sized. The thinner wrists could still make them work, but they have the bone wielding hand that you could replace the bone of. I'd say with pinning. Also more muscular if you wanted to go that way. The hand claws  could also fit aesthetically. Dragon ogre arms might work for replacements as well. That's presuming them both to be of similar size however.

If they're more stormcast paladin sized, then I've got 2 ideas. 1: Stormcast models themselves. The normal ones ae still bulkier than most humans, but the hands might be a bit small (don't have enough data regarding size) but you can usually get away with slight size discrepancies. Regardless, they serve as an armored option for the hands/arms if you want to go that way. My last suggestion would be skullreapers for this size bracket. They come with extra torsos that could be used. They're muscular and have many weapon options (that are covered in khorne symbols though) to pick from. I actually used spares from them on my slaanesh chosen. I'd post pictures, but they don't fit here.  If they're extra smaller than I think than tzangors' or blood reavers' arms could work.

I'd like to have 1 claw arm and 1 "normal" arm per slaangor, which is why I'm hoping for the option from GW. It's part of why I'm just going to sit and wait for the sprue before judging it. We don't have enough data. Although theorizing can be fun.  Somewhat unrelated, but I think the blissbarb archers could serve as raider conversions for those of the slaanesh beastmen persuasion. Might need to change the feet/head, but they are themed.

[DrThunder]

On 11/3/2020 at 2:52 PM, Ganigumo said:

 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by DrThunder
Sry. Misquote

[DrThunder]

Just give Gors a 3+ base save, re-rolling 1s with a shield.

[Myrdin]

16 hours ago, DrThunder said:

Just give Gors a 3+ base save, re-rolling 1s with a shield.

That would make no sense both lore nor model wise. We are talking about half naked goats with save equal to fully head to toe armored Stormcast demigods.

All the gors really need is 3+ to wound and the passive ability to start at 10+ like other races infantry units do, instead of 20+ and we are good (meaning unit of 10+ would always have 2A until there is less goats than 10).

[DrThunder]

31 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

That would make no sense both lore nor model wise. We are talking about half naked goats with save equal to fully head to toe armored Stormcast demigods.

You are correct model and lore wise.

I am just reaching for something defensive in this army other then the Dirge Horn.

[Maddpainting]

Beastmen defense is speed and numbers lol.

[Chaos Shepard]

I'm in the camp that would like to see Gors(Bestigors Too) move to 2 wounds. I'm also in favor of the previously mentioned boost to their offensive power. To better balance this move it would probably be a good idea to reduces there save by 1 in the process. Even with this they would still probably go up in point but, if you want a 1 wound horde unit that's what Ungors are for.

[DrThunder]

1 hour ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I'm in the camp that would like to see Gors(Bestigors Too) move to 2 wounds. I'm also in favor of the previously mentioned boost to their offensive power. To better balance this move it would probably be a good idea to reduces there save by 1 in the process. Even with this they would still probably go up in point but, if you want a 1 wound horde unit that's what Ungors are for.

I agree. Not necessarily more defensive but durable. Speed is enough but 2-3 units getting evaporated in a turn can hurt if you make the slightest positioning error.

[tupavko]

I recently played two games vs. the Fec, the first time I used my BoC the second time I used the new mono-troggoth Megamob.

I do not believe the core of the problem is within the single profiles (although all the bullgors definitley need some reworking especially after I played with those trolls), but in the most basic interactions within the army. The FeC have countless interractions between units, heroes, magic and comand abilities and utility heroes, so even the super low end ghoul in a mob of 40 with double pile in  and rerolling 1s becomes a threat, while our units are basically always on their own. Eery single unit in the BoC has no interraction of any kind with its similars, no matter if they are a monster, a hero or anything except for the shaman +3'' movement ability and that's basically it. All other armies can buff theri units in some way, sometimes they become more resistent, others turn into killing machines and so on, while ungors are always ungors, gors stay gors and so on. In my experience, this game is all about synergies and unfortunatelly we have none, and at the same time our units are not made to be stand alone powerhouses, we do not punch hard enough, we do not last enough and we do not have special abilities to make us unique, which all translates into an endless pit  of bodies that plays a body count control game, what basically translates into a BoC player calculating how many bodies are disposable that turn to hold the object long enough. It can be quite effective too as a strategy, at the end I eventually won my game against the FeC, mainly due to the fact that my oponent had less that 80 models while I started with 200, and left no space for him to land his massive terrogheist where needed so he spent 4 turns overkilling 10 man ungor units... At the end however it was just a bad game experience fro both of us.

The second time we played I played a mono-troggoth army and althought not the most competitive build, still the fact that those trolls are tough as nails, and have some basic synergies both with the Dankhold's massive reroll aura and some really good spells and access to a huge amount of command points made the game a lot more exciting, we ended up butchering eachother till the end, and I managed to score a victory only by casting Hand of Gork on the last turn and by doing so steal the objective (it ended 18 to 17).

So I do hope they remake a new book, if not we need a massive update of NEW INTERRACTIVE rules in Broken Realms or in the WD and here are some ideas:

- Destroyers of Civilization: +1 Comand Point for every HERO, MONSTER or TOTEM unit destroyed by a BoC player. (We find fullfilment in tearing down civilization so that should somehow show in the game, and it will give us some more CP to play with considering hom many battleshocks we pass every turn)

- Into the Frey: +1 Summoning Pont at the end of the turn for every BoC unit engaged in melee (the sounds of battle should call other scavangers to join the fight), this will also make those multiple MSU tarpits even more strategic and make the opponent think if it is worth killing 5 units of ungors and in exchange face a unit of Enlightened or Bestigor

- Bullgors: wrong in so many ways... I want them to be the ultimate glasscannons, something that you would naver want to see charge you, instead of only MW on 6s, double their attacks on charges and Mad Cows on steroids should have run and charge ALWAYS. If someone should always be able to charge those are bulls, or give them 3d6 charge. Should they cost more, I don't care, I want murder cows just as they are in Total War, if they charge you you're done, they are the hammer, if they get stuck they will suck just as now, but if they charge you're done. FUNFACT: Bullgors are the biggest two legged monstrous infantry in the GW's range and yet they are one of the worst. In terms of height only Trolls are the same, but the Bullgors chest alone is as wide as an Ogor is tall

- Dragon Ogors: These should go in groups of 2, but each one of them should be a walking tank, leave them without synergies, but make them super tanky with few high quality attacks, something you would put on the flank and let them do their job. The biggest Monsters in the game at the moment are stuck with 6 D1 no rend attacks? Seriously?

- Gors: 2A stop... +1A or 1 to wound if more than 20 

- We need a new large hero.... If we can't get a Beastlord on a chariot, or a new Shaggoth model that stands up to its name (a Shaggoth should be a massive monster, not some tiny derpy looking dude with flimbsy limbs that is 20 years old... He was a great model and I loved him, but oh man has he aged in a bad way), than GW should create a One Eyed Ghorgon hero by putting a Cygor head on a Gorghon (just like the Fec magic) and make one. 

- Cygor: scrap it... make e new one, give it serious magic defence, let him eat endless spells or something really useful, like if a Wizard casts a spell within it's massive boulder's range he gets to shoot for free righ after the casting roll is done (because he is sensitive to wizards) so those pesky little wizard with 5 wounds should think twice before doing funky stuff...

- if a pimped seahorse or a turtle can have a legendary name, so should a Gorghon or a Cygor. A Gorghon was the monster that actually sent Katakros to meet Nagash in the first time... let's make them scary actually!

So these are just a few ideas, but most of all what I really desire is a good playing experience (I do not care if we don't end up being the top dog with the Seraphon, Lumieth and Tzeentch), cause at the moment the only way of playing a well balanced army is by being a body-accountant and it is lame as it sounds.  I do understand that not everyone plays in a competitive way, but still there are armies out there that unless your opponent is kind enough will blow us from the table on turn 1.

Edited December 30, 2020 by tupavko

[Maddpainting]

The idea and play style of our army is fine, we are just rules light compare to everyone else. Ghorgons should be doing large amounts of damage, Cygors need to be more anti magic, etc.... We are really close to being where we need, a few rewrites of 8 ish warscrollsand I feel we will be in a really good spot. 

Personally i want the Brayherd and Warherd to stay about the same (just buff Gors, Centigors, Chariots, Ghorgons, Cygors and better battalion buffs) and I want a full rewrite to all of our "Monsters of Chaos" and be basically 2 books into 1. DO/Shaggoths/Hounds as the core of the Monsters, let us take unlimited Behemoths in it (Chimeras and Jabberclythes) Hounds of battalion with Shaggoth/Jabber leader, etc.. 
 

[Myrdin]

I have said this for a long time now. This army lacks in synergies. We have no integral buffs, no worthwhile command abilities no nothing.  And on top of that the individual warscrolls do not perform to the standard individual unbuffable units should.

Ambush is still a crappy skill that gets outdone by any other army that Ambushes (Ghost do better, DoK Harpies do better, CoS Shadow Warriors do better... like do I have to keep on going ?).

Its a worthless army ability that doesnt offer anything and has again 0 synergy. Beastmen Ambush should be feared, it should be miles better than anyone else at ambushing. Bonus to charges and further and further up the table the longer the game goes on.

Loss of Primal Fury is hurting like hell because there was no replacement done in its stead, and you can say it was a bandaid by Phil Kelly all you want, when in the end it was the one thing that kept Beastmen relevant. Now we lost it and you can really feel all the 4+ to Hit. All it takes is for an enemy that reduces the hit chance and this army hits like a wet noodle. And if they can stack this effect ? Its GG.

The army has good theme and ideas but all of them are half baked.  Ambush needs to have weight, and if we dont get Primal Fury to bolster the combat phase itself we should get a Army wider Run and Charge for EVERYTHING in this book. That should be the theme with Beastmen. They are not super killy, nor they are super tough, but they are fast as hell and anything they put on the table can be on you turn 1, 2 at max. That would also free up tha Musicians in the units to do something else for the unit.

Army wide Run and Charge as the main army rule, bunch of warscroll updates, synergies, reworked Greatfrays and Battalions as well as the way we interact with rest of Chaos. The right way is how CoS does it. For every X of our units we can take 1 unit of the Battalion selected God army. Not just lend our stuff out, but also be able to ally stuff in.

Some of the Individual warscroll are fine, but others are utter trash (Dragon Ogors are a joke. No way these are ancient beings that have lived through end times. Monster dont have any wieght to them and you bring them for the models instead of the unit itself). Some warscrolls just need some loving (Bullgors more attacks to really make it count. They lost Frenzy which gave them extra attack, and they also dropped in attacks per base in general. Gors needs some tuning up, etc). Some need a shift in how they are accessible (Warhounds need to be Battleline to be even remotely worth it as they are now. Centigors could use a complete rework and split into two differently equipped units).

Some warscrolls as the mentioned Cygor need to be completely redesigned and their identity crisis needs to be resolved once and for all.  I like the idea of them tossing boulders, thats fine, but they should also punch as a Gorghon does > they are still a giant creature with immense strength. Plus they need to do something related to magic. I like the idea of them devouring endless spells, and reacting to enemy magic casts in range. .... no I actually love. I absolutely love the idea guys! The more I think about it and imagine a Cygor just reaching down and munching on a endless spell the more the idea is endearing to me.

Gorghon needs to be a thing of terror. Right now it hits like a wet ****** on a sunday morning. Rend -1 ? 5 Attacks ? Really ? This thing needs at least Rend -2 and 6 attacks at the bare minimum. And some form of rampage where it generates more attacks as it gets wounded.

Also... where are Feral Manticores ? Also the inclusion of new beasts like Raptorix and what not. Its all in the fluff, so maybe not the Sphinx but Raptorix and the Ogroids should be accessible. Again all it takes is just a line or two of updated fluff for them to fit in.

 

Basically this army, in its entirety is NOT HARD to fix. Really it isnt. But the problem is it never got the good look at, nor the love and interest of the writers. What we need first and foremost is for the next person writting it to fully embrace the Beast of Chaos life style, understand the flaws and the advantages this army has to offer. To understand the theme and what is the true potential of these units and how they should act and react on the table. Basically we need a person who likes Beastmen, and has the appreciation and understanding of this army yet does not fear to take them and polish them. Heck I think no one would complain if once in what... 12 years is it ? the beastmen would be actually borderline OP. Not broken, but just very strong army. Last time we had this was when we still used mixed skirmish units of Gors and Ungors shortly after being split away from general Chaos.

Example: Ogor Mawtribes. This army was mediocre at best. Then the big rework came that gave them bunch of new models and very very strong ruleset. This was still back in Warhammer Fantasy times. Now in AoS not only they recreated the old Ogors but they put them on steroids. Not once but twice. Not only most of them now have 3+ to hit instead of 4+ which was the staple, they also got the new rule that makes them much more faster than Ogors have any right to be, and basically unbreakable in combat as far as unit Leadership goes. The 3+ to hit was more then enough but this rule was over the top since it completely negates one of their weaknesses which was speed.  The person who wrote this. We need that person for Beastmen. Someone with guts who isnt afraid to take this army and do what works. 

But I rest my case, this has been said hundred of times already. We will see whether then next BoC book will be an improvement or disappointment.

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Myrdin

[The Red King]

You know as odd as it may seem the new special anniversary stormcast (come on guys there are OTHER factions who need alternate hero sculpts MUCH more) has an interesting tidbit that gives me a little hope. The Bullgor head he is holding is drastically different than the current Bullgor kit and even the new slaangor. That means they had to do at least SOME CAD work on updating a bullgor head (the teeth and gums are in line with he new slaangor but the head is wider and the horns more traditional) and if you've already made the head I mean... why stop there? Maybe I'm just desperate for some loving but a new Bullgor kit in the year of the Ox would be nice (not that the year of the rat did skaven any good).

[Maddpainting]

Looks the same to me, doesn't mean we will not get some love soon (I fully think we will) but i don't see this model as a hint to anything.

[Lord Krungharr]

What is the Primal Fury thing we lost?  Haven't used my BoC in a while.  Was that an allegiance ability that I just forgot the name of?

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

Looks the same to me, doesn't mean we will not get some love soon (I fully think we will) but i don't see this model as a hint to anything.

Looks the same as...? Old bullgors? Horns and teeth (gums) totally different. Same as Slannagor? Horns and head width are way off.

[Myrdin]

2 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

What is the Primal Fury thing we lost?  Haven't used my BoC in a while.  Was that an allegiance ability that I just forgot the name of?

No you didnt, dont worry. This was back before AoS when the game was still called WFB - Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

And as to what we lost: In close combat, the unit takes a Ld test and if successful, gets hatred for the round. If the unit passes on a double 1, they get hatred AND frenzy for the rest of the round (Known as Primal Frenzy instead).

 

Not sure if you were around back then but to put it into current ruleset terms: Unit takes Bravery test. If passed the unit can re-roll failed to Hit rolls. If the test was passed on the roll of double 1s you get re-roll to Hit and +1Attack instead.

Back then Leadership was two digit number and when taking tests you rolled two dices instead of one that is used for Battleshock tests now. Since you were rolling two dice the chances to fail were higher so in general the value itself was also higher (Beastmen had I believe LD9 on the Beastlord, which is something unthinkable for BoC in AoS ). 

Every unit with this rule could do this at the start of the turn, and yes sometimes you failed despite your Beastlord taking an artifact to improve his LD to 10 and having a Hero with Banner close who allowed you to reroll.

I remember this from one of my games. Rolled for a unit of bestigors. The roll was 11, rerolled for 12 haha, I think it was a crucial roll that might have costed me the game back then XD.

There was also an artifact, I think it was the Crown of Horns that allowed the unit the Hero was attached to to auto pass its Primal Fury test so you could at least guarantee one unit to always have this, but the trade off was that you could never get the extra attacks from rolling snake eyes on that roll since you didnt roll.

Might be remembering this incorrectly, but I think I got the gist of it right. If not I am sure @Popisdead will correct

 

So if you think about the fact our army hits in 4+ mostly, this rule was what kept Beastmen going back then. It was what allowed this army to be somewhat competitive since the re-roll was quite a big thing.

If we had this now, as an army wide rule like it used to be (it did exclude stuff like razorgors and harpies, but no chariots though). This army would be on entirely different level. We would be much deadlier in combat and could deal with negatives effects to Hit rolls much easier. The whole "take leadership test" part would most likely have to be taken out, but I could imagine it be like "roll a die, on 3+ you get this. If you roll a 6 you get the stronger version".  More streamlined  version would be if it gave just flat +1 to Hit for the turn instead of the re-roll. Would speed up the game, sure since less dice rolls, but its more boring if you ask me.

[Maddpainting]

We had a 1.0 version of it up until 2018 when our book was released. I honestly really miss the old Battalion "Wildstalker" I seriously would play this every game if we kept it lol. Though I mean the Primal Fury part and what you take, Ambush being a core rule is amazing.


 

[Myrdin]

13 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

We had a 1.0 version of it up until 2018 when our book was released. I honestly really miss the old Battalion "Wildstalker" I seriously would play this every game if we kept it lol. Though I mean the Primal Fury part and what you take, Ambush being a core rule is amazing.


 

These are exactly the synergies we lack. But not just for Brayherds, this used to be army wide even before this. Honestly we need this back and be army wide once more. This would do wonders for Bullgors, Centigors and Dragon Ogors who each have two weapon profiles. Especially Bullgors who are supposed to be the hammer would benefit from this greatly.

[Popisdead]

On 12/29/2020 at 7:55 AM, DrThunder said:

You are correct model and lore wise.

I am just reaching for something defensive in this army other then the Dirge Horn.

 

On 12/29/2020 at 3:09 PM, Maddpainting said:

Beastmen defense is speed and numbers lol.

This is the key to the army.  Joel McGrath of Measure Gaming/Bush Radio does well with the army, knows its ****** but loves the classic aesthetic and plays the game not the units.  as in he knows Bullgors are bad so he uses them as wave 3 clean up not front line trying to alpha charge.  Usually his armies consist of 80+ Ungors if not significantly more. 

In a podcast he made a really key point that I've been wanting to practice with.  Don't charge.  Move your models up, claim objectives and learn how the army works as just wave after wave of chaff.  

On 12/29/2020 at 4:37 PM, Chaos Shepard said:

I'm in the camp that would like to see Gors(Bestigors Too) move to 2 wounds. I'm also in favor of the previously mentioned boost to their offensive power. To better balance this move it would probably be a good idea to reduces there save by 1 in the process. Even with this they would still probably go up in point but, if you want a 1 wound horde unit that's what Ungors are for.

It would be good for Ungors to be 1W, Gors/Bestigors to be 2 and Bullgors to go up as well.  I think it was Maddpainting or Arboealwalrus who said make the Bullgor 160 points but boost his # of A and threat.  A real pricy threat.  

In long ago days last century, Space Orks were 5-10 and Big Mobz were 10-20.  I would honestly like to see a return to smaller units sizes in units like Ork Boyz, Gors, etc to be 20 as a threat and means to survive (2W) and Ungors or Grots being 20-40 as the mass waves of chaff.  With smaller board size in AoS 3 most likely who knows, perhaps are army will suddenly flood the table making playing against it unmanageable as far as board control goes.

On 12/30/2020 at 5:59 AM, Maddpainting said:

The idea and play style of our army is fine, we are just rules light compare to everyone else. Ghorgons should be doing large amounts of damage, Cygors need to be more anti magic, etc.... We are really close to being where we need, a few rewrites of 8 ish warscrollsand I feel we will be in a really good spot. 

Personally i want the Brayherd and Warherd to stay about the same (just buff Gors, Centigors, Chariots, Ghorgons, Cygors and better battalion buffs) and I want a full rewrite to all of our "Monsters of Chaos" and be basically 2 books into 1. DO/Shaggoths/Hounds as the core of the Monsters, let us take unlimited Behemoths in it (Chimeras and Jabberclythes) Hounds of battalion with Shaggoth/Jabber leader, etc.. 
 

GW is good at translating the idea of Beasts of Chaos fluff-wise from lore/novels to table but bad at making them a cohesive army that works properly.  I agree Warherd should be damage dealing but the lack of reliable dmg output is what hurts those units more than them "sucking".  I've had a Ghorgon kill 20 KO,.. something.  My opponent was just shocked.  But you need the reliability in the rolls for dmg or you need to just drop the price of the unit to be usable which isn't really a good option.

17 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

We had a 1.0 version of it up until 2018 when our book was released. I honestly really miss the old Battalion "Wildstalker" I seriously would play this every game if we kept it lol. Though I mean the Primal Fury part and what you take, Ambush being a core rule is amazing.


 

Oh man I forgot.  Funny how we look back to 5 1/2 years ago (or 6 1/2?) and miss it.  At the end of the day we still have to be thankful we have a book.  regular goblins, orks, brets, TKs are kinda just,.. gone with a significant struggle in what you would do with a huge army painted if you transitioned into AoS from 8th ed with them.  GW chucked a dart with our book and instead of hitting a triple 20, we got a book that was somewhere random that people didn't understand for a while but didn't hit the wall behind the dartboard.

 

I have faith,. for Morghur

[Lord Krungharr]

Holy cows!  I never played ye olde Fantasy Battle, but Primal Fury really sounds like what the Beasts need.  Gors still need 2 attacks though.

[Popisdead]

19 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Might be remembering this incorrectly, but I think I got the gist of it right. If not I am sure @Popisdead will correct

haha nope.  kiddos are 4 and 6.  no brain, it's mush, memory gone.  Also too lazy to go read the book.  It will bring up too many memories of that book also being too weak   

 

wait,.. ugh.,.. Crown of Command?? was +1 LD?  and the Beastlord was LD9?  So with the BSB you had LD 10 on a RR?  bringing back memories of rolling snakeeyes for frenzy and hatred hahaha.  

I miss the combo of rolling 6 dice to auto blow up enemy arcane items with the Power Scroll.  

[decker_cky]

Beastlord with Ld9 + BSB reroll was all that was necessary for primal fury. 

@Popisdead - you just need to work out your brain by describing what "unmodified leadership" was in 8th edition WFB. 

Also, forget the Wildstalker Brayherd....the better, cheaper and smaller battalion was Furious Brayherd. 

[Apok]

Hi!

   The Crown of Command provided Stubborn for You and Your unit. It was a common EQ to have a Stubborn Beastlord with a 1+ Sv with a reroll and a 5 point magic weapon (-1 AP for example). And Have him in a unit of Bestiors with a Banner of Discipline. That way You were stubborn 10 on the unit and thanks to the FaQ and other things, Your general was providing LD 10 all around :)

   The Beastmen got some teeth in the End Times though! Becasue our Lords were good and our units not, the ET solved the problem becasue the point caps in heroes and lords went up. And We received a propper beatstick in the likes of a Doombull with Fly, AoD and Mark of Tzeentch (Flying monster with a 3+ RR1 Ward Save with 6 Str 8 attacks!)