AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Popisdead]

That's good, I sent an email asking them to consider addressing the change based on having already addressed Slaanesh's so it can be done

[Maddpainting]

Yeah a few players thinks the Cygor should be 7pts over 8, i kinda do agree too. So i amended it. I was just trying to not change it to many steps to fast.

[Derptau]

32 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Yeah a few players thinks the Cygor should be 7pts over 8, i kinda do agree too. So i amended it. I was just trying to not change it to many steps to fast.

I don’t think they’re really even worth 7.  They’re just too swingy and squishy.

[Derptau]

32 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Yeah a few players thinks the Cygor should be 7pts over 8, i kinda do agree too. So i amended it. I was just trying to not change it to many steps to fast.

I don’t think they’re really even worth 7.  They’re just too swingy and squishy.

[Maddpainting]

18 minutes ago, Derptau said:

I don’t think they’re really even worth 7.  They’re just too swingy and squishy.

While i agree, there are situations that he is really good, vs CoS hallowheart for example, him costing 6 means you could get 2 out easily. If going allherd (A new possibility if summoner points are changed) you could get 2 out by turn 2 easily, Summon and ruin a couple wizards. 

 

[JonnyTheKing]

Anyone got a good 1K list they could recommend?

[Maddpainting]

What models do you mostly want to play with? Or what style at least? And do you want a battalion or not?

My go to 1k list is (note that i like Ungors, raiders, and Bestigors)

Gavespawn 980pts
Beastlord - Mutating Gnarlblade
Shaman - Thermalrider cloak 
Bestigors
Bestigors
Bestigors
Ungors
Ungors
Raiders x20 /Bullgors/TEoD w.e you want (note check what battalion you are running)
Desolating Beastherd / Depraved Drove

Allherd works really well at 1k too
Beastlord - Blade of Des
Shaman - Aetherquartz brooch
Bestigors
Bestigors
Bestigors
Ungors
Ungors
Raiders x20 /Bullgors/TEoD (note check what battalion you are running)
Desolating Beastherd / Depraved Drove

Finally you could not take a battalion and just take another 150pts of units, 1 more Hero and another unit like Ungors, Centigors, etc.. but i LOVE my battalions and will always take one unless its a really low point game.

[Popisdead]

On 5/6/2020 at 11:34 AM, Maddpainting said:

While i agree, there are situations that he is really good, vs CoS hallowheart for example, him costing 6 means you could get 2 out easily. If going allherd (A new possibility if summoner points are changed) you could get 2 out by turn 2 easily, Summon and ruin a couple wizards. 
 

Thank you! 

I used a couple Cygor in a Warherd Darkwalkers list with a couple Ghorgons and the rest bulls.  sure it wasn't great but it wasn't useless.  It bounces the odd wound back when it unbinds which is pretty annoying turns 3-4 especially if in turns 1 or 2 you've gotten a D6 wounds to land and suddenly after a couple turns your screened enemy wizard has 1W left.

 And ambushing them bridges the gap in bad movement.  They could still be cheaper (even 100 points I wouldn't think they are that good) but I didn't hate my experience.  

I struggle with forums as they often get dominated by power players who only play a list when strong, dominate the conversation, often in a negative fashion.  Yeah we all want to win and be the best but sometimes people come here looking to make what they have or love better.  

[Maddpainting]

46 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

Thank you! 

I used a couple Cygor in a Warherd Darkwalkers list with a couple Ghorgons and the rest bulls.  sure it wasn't great but it wasn't useless.  It bounces the odd wound back when it unbinds which is pretty annoying turns 3-4 especially if in turns 1 or 2 you've gotten a D6 wounds to land and suddenly after a couple turns your screened enemy wizard has 1W left.

 And ambushing them bridges the gap in bad movement.  They could still be cheaper (even 100 points I wouldn't think they are that good) but I didn't hate my experience.  

I struggle with forums as they often get dominated by power players who only play a list when strong, dominate the conversation, often in a negative fashion.  Yeah we all want to win and be the best but sometimes people come here looking to make what they have or love better.  

Yeah NP, really the only unit i will say is 100% completely utterly terrible and never use it is the Jabberscythe. Mostly b.c his rules literally only work if you get the double turn from turn 2 going into turn 3 , otherwise he is just a worst Behemoth and just take a Ghorgon. Some units have better counter parts like Warhounds, Centigors are just better versions of them (tho 5man 2w vs 10man 1w) or Chariots vs Razrgors (more wounds more speed, better save) and a lot of the "mosters" has no hero support. But Warhounds and Razorgors can still work, they fill a role and are fine at it, unlike the Jabber lol.

The good thing about BoC is we are at that nice sweet spot of not to weak, but not that powerful that it makes picking units a zero choice option. When a book is to weak you have to pick only the strongest units to even stay on the table, but when you are to strong everyone screams "Play this good way".

We are IMO the best army b.c we have the most ways to play, we can also play a full BoC army out of 5 different books!

Some units needs to be fix and some needs a point change, but that is everyone's army.

Cyrgors perfect point level IMO is 120, Ghorgon 140, Giant 140. I think GW is scared that if they are too cheap b.c it is a lot of wounds. Thats 8pts per wound, thats really good on a behemoth. 

[decker_cky]

15 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Cyrgors perfect point level IMO is 120, Ghorgon 140, Giant 140. I think GW is scared that if they are too cheap b.c it is a lot of wounds. Thats 8pts per wound, thats really good on a behemoth. 

8 pts per wound would be very competitive for behemoths, particularly ones with built in healing (Ghorgons make better use of the warherd healing, but cygors have the soul-eater healing which is a little more passive).  Remember that the baseline for most 10 wound units is 6 pts per wound (60 per 10). 

[Raven2129]

Hey everyone, I have been playing BoC since the drop of the battletome. And since the release of the book, I have collected quite a few models (almost 3500) points. I am looking for just some different lists to play and was wondering what you would build with my stuff. I have:

6 bray shamans

2 beast lords

1 doombull

2 shaggoths

60 bestigor

40 ungor

30 gor

12 bullgor

10 centigor

1 chariot

1 ghorgon

1 cygor/ ghorgon (magnetized)

and for allies:

10 Chaos knights

1 war mammoth

[Maddpainting]

Have you tried playing out of the BoK or MoN books?

[Raven2129]

13 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Have you tried playing out of the BoK or MoN books?

I haven't yet. I have looked at both of them and thought of some ideas for lists. I do own the  the Slaanesh book and thought about some of them, but not as much benefit as much as BoK and MoN.

[Kamose]

So I recently purchased a Mindstealer Sphiranx (hereafter referred to as Spanx).  She seems like a fun little support monster. Spanx also fits in with the intelligent, evil monster theme of the Beasts. I love the idea of Spanx being the true brains behind the horde, manipulating the Beast Lords and Shamans without them even realizing it!

I also have a bunch of the Warcry furies and raptoryx. So I was thinking, what other S2D units make good allies for us. They have lots of new toys to pick from!

I personally love my Brayherd; fast movement, ambushing, and trickery.  Anyone know of some good S2D tools to compliment the goats? 🐐

[TheArborealWalrus]

On 5/16/2020 at 2:41 PM, Kamose said:

Anyone know of some good S2D tools to compliment the goats?

Full disclosure, I haven't been using BoC allegiance abilities almost at all (one game before quarantine struck), and I've never used StD with our army. But ... Others have been recommending the khorne daemon prince for his command ability (engaging the enemy on your terms is always best), Belakor neutralizes one enemy unit for a turn and (I believe this is how it works) is immune to our reduced saves bubble plus he's still a reasonably hitty daemon prince. The sphiranx is another decent option, but the main issue for all allies of BoC is that we don't play well with others. They have to start out closeish to our painful to non-BoC auras. There are a lot cool and thematic options that we could take, but if they get close to the herd stone, they become exponentially more vulnerable. Makes them much less viable as options.

I had two questions for everyone.

1: Tzaangors enlightened on discs are a great unit and I'd like to use some of them, but to me, the beasts of chaos are meant to be very much separate from the chaos gods (directly). Thus the discs bother me. Does anyone have ideas for a more unaligned enlightened model? I'm aware of the winged tzaangor idea, but the discs dish out serious damage. I'd like to do that justice on the model. I was going to go for Gavespawn as I like converting (I'm leaving the guys who pull double duty for Khorne as more normal, but my gavespawn exclusives I plan to play with). Wanted to play around with a mild Lovecraftian vibe from them. Servants of the yellow king perhaps? (damnit, I'm going to have to make a third beast lord for the yellow king … *sigh* AND re-paint my gavespawn specific units *double sigh*)

2: Ungors are surprisingly hard to come by, and getting the bases (since GW still doesn't sell them with the correct ones outside of the start collecting) is a pain. Does anyone have any suggestions for alternative models that are at least similarly priced? Part two of this. Since I'm going with gavespawn I was planning on mutating many of these ungors. How much is too much? At what point does the model stop looking sufficiently like an ungor to be a reasonable replacement? (Speaking of the yellow king has made images of ungor raiders as devolved, shambling cultist like horrors spring to my mind)

For Mourghur! (I have no idea how to spell his name off the top of my head)

Edited May 23, 2020 by TheArborealWalrus

[Maddpainting]

On 5/16/2020 at 5:41 PM, Kamose said:

So I recently purchased a Mindstealer Sphiranx (hereafter referred to as Spanx).  She seems like a fun little support monster. Spanx also fits in with the intelligent, evil monster theme of the Beasts. I love the idea of Spanx being the true brains behind the horde, manipulating the Beast Lords and Shamans without them even realizing it!

I also have a bunch of the Warcry furies and raptoryx. So I was thinking, what other S2D units make good allies for us. They have lots of new toys to pick from!

I personally love my Brayherd; fast movement, ambushing, and trickery.  Anyone know of some good S2D tools to compliment the goats? 🐐

Be'lakor and the Sphiranx are both really good. A Khorne DP is  good b.c of his CP aura. You can also take the Gaunt Summoner to get free Horrors and more spells. I'd say those 4 are the best 4. After that it doesn't really add anything we can not already do.

 

On 5/23/2020 at 3:18 AM, TheArborealWalrus said:

Full disclosure, I haven't been using BoC allegiance abilities almost at all (one game before quarantine struck), and I've never used StD with our army. But ... Others have been recommending the khorne daemon prince for his command ability (engaging the enemy on your terms is always best), Belakor neutralizes one enemy unit for a turn and (I believe this is how it works) is immune to our reduced saves bubble plus he's still a reasonably hitty daemon prince. The sphiranx is another decent option, but the main issue for all allies of BoC is that we don't play well with others. They have to start out closeish to our painful to non-BoC auras. There are a lot cool and thematic options that we could take, but if they get close to the herd stone, they become exponentially more vulnerable. Makes them much less viable as options.

I had two questions for everyone.

1: Tzaangors enlightened on discs are a great unit and I'd like to use some of them, but to me, the beasts of chaos are meant to be very much separate from the chaos gods (directly). Thus the discs bother me. Does anyone have ideas for a more unaligned enlightened model? I'm aware of the winged tzaangor idea, but the discs dish out serious damage. I'd like to do that justice on the model. I was going to go for Gavespawn as I like converting (I'm leaving the guys who pull double duty for Khorne as more normal, but my gavespawn exclusives I plan to play with). Wanted to play around with a mild Lovecraftian vibe from them. Servants of the yellow king perhaps? (damnit, I'm going to have to make a third beast lord for the yellow king … *sigh* AND re-paint my gavespawn specific units *double sigh*)

2: Ungors are surprisingly hard to come by, and getting the bases (since GW still doesn't sell them with the correct ones outside of the start collecting) is a pain. Does anyone have any suggestions for alternative models that are at least similarly priced? Part two of this. Since I'm going with gavespawn I was planning on mutating many of these ungors. How much is too much? At what point does the model stop looking sufficiently like an ungor to be a reasonable replacement? (Speaking of the yellow king has made images of ungor raiders as devolved, shambling cultist like horrors spring to my mind)

For Mourghur! (I have no idea how to spell his name off the top of my head)

1) You can use Bestigors and make your own disks, they don't even need to be disks. Just make sure to have 40mm bases and they are about 1" extra height on them. 

Some ides:
a) Wings and flight stand
b) Vines, tree's, etc.. kinda like Morghur base
c) Smoke/clouds
d) Magic swirls , some greenstuff around guitar wire in a tornado to look disk like but magical

2) Ungors do come with the correct bases and has been for over a year now. If you can't get them then its really old back stock from some local thats not selling them. Contact GW and tell them you didn't get bases they most likely will send you some.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Popisdead]

Worth a living while you work (in the background)

If nothing else it promotes the army more.

[Smillis88]

was just curious if the battalion benifits only apply to units in the batralion or your whole army. like if it.says 1-2 units of beatigor and i have 3.

[Popisdead]

On 5/6/2020 at 5:52 PM, Maddpainting said:

My go to 1k list is (note that i like Ungors, raiders, and Bestigors)

What is your take on Ungors across the 3 types?  I have 40 spears, 40 Mauls 40 Raiders but I'm thinking about glueing bows and quivers if I have them on the Maul Ungors to dual-purpose them.  pre-battletome there was a guy who used to run 90 Raiders.  However mathing it out a bit I'm not sure that's a gunline worth taking.  

Joel McGrath on Bush Radio/Measured Radio has been a big fan of Raiders saying they hold an objective and also chip away with shooting.  For those points I feel 40 Ungors , even Gavespawn Spear Ungors can be a threat with a couple rend debuffs over the raiders shooting.  I feel you need to DS the Raiders in with Desolating to try to get the 6s but even then... shrugs.  I guess Sisters of the Watch in my Living City ruined me haha.

I've thought about 3 x 10 Mauls and 40 Spears and maybe a few 10-man Raiders for alpha strike denials which,.. honestly feels like their best trait, that pre game move.

I guess it's a comment brought up a fair bit.  I'm waffling back and forth.

On 5/26/2020 at 5:30 AM, Smillis88 said:

was just curious if the battalion benifits only apply to units in the batralion or your whole army. like if it.says 1-2 units of beatigor and i have 3.

Only the Battalion.

[Kamose]

Along

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

What is your take on Ungors across the 3 types?  I have 40 spears, 40 Mauls 40 Raiders but I'm thinking about glueing bows and quivers if I have them on the Maul Ungors to dual-purpose them.  pre-battletome there was a guy who used to run 90 Raiders.  However mathing it out a bit I'm not sure that's a gunline worth taking.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you though I would like to add something to the discussion.  I'm having similar thoughts to you, Popisdead, only about Gors.  Now I understand that Gors are not preferred over Ungors, and no one's winning NOVA with a Gor horde.  However, I simply prefer the Gor models to Ungors and so I would rather run Gors than Ungors.

It seems like Gors should make a fine unit for blocking charges, protecting against teleporting units, and generally messing with board control when run in min-size squads.  Neither 10 Gors nor 10 Ungors will even win a fight but that doesn't matter since they're not supposed to.  They simply run around outside 3" from something scary and stop its movement for a turn (assuming it can't fly). 

Again, I'm not trying to win Adepticon here.  I'm mostly curious if I've missed something or if you have something to add.  So here are the pros and cons as I see them.  What do you all think?

Pros

- Just as a fast as Ungors

- Large base size means a longer screen

- 4+ save with a shield means they might even survive a round of combat with another skirmish unit.

Cons

- Gors are 10pts more expensive (very minor but could add up)

- Restrictions in Battalions might limit the number of min-size Gor units compared to Ungors (causing problems during deployment)
 

🐐
 

[decker_cky]

I'll often take my min-sized screening units as gors for the reasons you state. Another point in favour of the gors is that +1 bravery is not irrelevant on a screening unit. 

The thing is, even if the 10 pts was completely wasted compared to 60 pt ungor units (its not), 10 pts out of 2000 pts (or even 30 pts out of 2000 pts if you take multiples) is so small that its essentially irrelevant, unless it prevents you from taking something else. 

[Maddpainting]

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

What is your take on Ungors across the 3 types?  I have 40 spears, 40 Mauls 40 Raiders but I'm thinking about glueing bows and quivers if I have them on the Maul Ungors to dual-purpose them.  pre-battletome there was a guy who used to run 90 Raiders.  However mathing it out a bit I'm not sure that's a gunline worth taking.  

Joel McGrath on Bush Radio/Measured Radio has been a big fan of Raiders saying they hold an objective and also chip away with shooting.  For those points I feel 40 Ungors , even Gavespawn Spear Ungors can be a threat with a couple rend debuffs over the raiders shooting.  I feel you need to DS the Raiders in with Desolating to try to get the 6s but even then... shrugs.  I guess Sisters of the Watch in my Living City ruined me haha.

I've thought about 3 x 10 Mauls and 40 Spears and maybe a few 10-man Raiders for alpha strike denials which,.. honestly feels like their best trait, that pre game move.

I guess it's a comment brought up a fair bit.  I'm waffling back and forth.

Only the Battalion.

Ungors and Raiders are different units and you really want both for the most part. 

Ungors Spear vs Blades: Really it doesn't matter at all, their damage is so low you wont notice. But Each 10 Blades is 0.5 more damage than each 10 Spears vs a 5+sv (literally 0.5 more damage per 10) but thats only if all 10 are in contact. The more you start to add to a unit the harder it gets to get all 1" range in, you can do it for sure. But 40 2" is a lot easier than 40 1" and most of the time the extra 2 wounds will be lost and more likely 1 extra wound do to range. 

I have 80 and all mine are spears, only b.c its a lot easier to move and not care. I can play fast and loose and not worry about my damage. I take Bestigors, Bulls, etc.. for damage. If i'm at the point that 5 extra Ungors will make or break my game with their damage, then i did something wrong. But i know many like the Blades b.c the spears pokes them.


About Raiders. They are just amazing. With a free 6" move, they can make going 2nd an instant victory. Sure they are 80pts and you could throw them away. But i always play with 2x10 mans to screen up the table, and a 2nd 30/40 man as back up damage and a 2nd/3rd wave of defense. For me by best games are playing wave after wave of bodies and doing key damage at key times.  The raiders are good to snipe out small units too. Get ride of their screens and is normally a large target for them, so they can be useful as well to bait out movements from their melee hitters.

[Popisdead]

1 hour ago, Kamose said:

.  Now I understand that Gors are not preferred over Ungors, and no one's winning NOVA with a Gor horde.  However, I simply prefer the Gor models to Ungors and so I would rather run Gors than Ungors.
 

If you are objective camping with Gors vs Ungors the base size matters as you can get more Ungors on the objective.  Both primarily being used to die slowly on an objective and score points.  I think it tends to come down to that.

I think Darkwalkers can teleport 30 gors but then the arguement is would 200 points of Gors be better to teleport or would 300 points of Bestigors?  

I like Gors, a lot of us have 40-80 from 8th ed and if you aren't playing top table you can try to make them work.  BoC is one of the worst performing books if you hear the stats on Honest Wargamer, and from guys who play them they will admit (other than Madpainting) they really are just an uphill battle.  

Maybe Allherd, double Slaanesh? battalion and flood the board is a route for you to take?  Try to just fish for Chimeras?  I always encourage people play with what they want and I myself play a variety of gamers.  Locally I have one of the best AoS players a kilometre away but when I head downtown and play a lot of those guys are casual and I still want them to have a fun game.  

[Maddpainting]

33 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

If you are objective camping with Gors vs Ungors the base size matters as you can get more Ungors on the objective.  Both primarily being used to die slowly on an objective and score points.  I think it tends to come down to that.

I think Darkwalkers can teleport 30 gors but then the arguement is would 200 points of Gors be better to teleport or would 300 points of Bestigors?  

I like Gors, a lot of us have 40-80 from 8th ed and if you aren't playing top table you can try to make them work.  BoC is one of the worst performing books if you hear the stats on Honest Wargamer, and from guys who play them they will admit (other than Madpainting) they really are just an uphill battle.  

Maybe Allherd, double Slaanesh? battalion and flood the board is a route for you to take?  Try to just fish for Chimeras?  I always encourage people play with what they want and I myself play a variety of gamers.  Locally I have one of the best AoS players a kilometre away but when I head downtown and play a lot of those guys are casual and I still want them to have a fun game.  

That depends how many Gors you are taking, if its just 1-2 units then yes 100%. But if you are taking 6 then no not at all. B.c you can get a full Ungor unit at that point. Not only is it a 7th unit but it also is another layer to block and more to string out. 

Oh for sure its an uphill battle. We have the best board control in the game and if you don't use that its really bad for us (We do have some damage at least, Bestigors and Bullgors, without them i don't think we could win). But b.c we relay on board control we also auto lose in 4 out of the 18 missions (I have not seen a way to win without luck. But my opponents are used to playing against me/BoC now). One example is Knife to the Heart. Some top BoC players are adding a 6-9 bull unit just for those missions and i think i need to do the same over 80 Raiders and 60 bestigors (Cut them down to 50 and 40 or something). Gavespawn on a 6 man Bullgore can for sure do better than on 10 bestigors.

But its funny when a top IDK list can't get out of their zone for 2 turns and he is talking about adding in 6 Scourgerunners to kill my chaff (They are one of the most OP units in the game, way worst than Flammers of Tzeentch. We would lose instantly vs that army. Luckily its a $1000 army before tax/discount).

Edited May 27, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Kamose]

Board control is what I'm thinking for the Gors; not necessarily holding objectives except opportunistically.

Though you have made me consider just how many screening units of Gors I'd realistically need. If they won't live past the turn 2, bringing more than a few units might serve no purpose.