AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[The_Yellow_Sign]

Kadeton in the other thread was able to use his photoshop skills to read the Beastlord's command ability: 

Quote

 

Grisly Trophy: With a roar of triumph, the Beastlord raises a severed head into the air.

You can use this command ability in the combat phase if any attacks made by a friendly BEASTLORD with this command ability resulted in an enemy model being slain that phase. If you do, until the end of that phase, you can re-roll wound rolls for attacks made by friendly BRAYHERD units wholly within 18" of that BEASTLORD. If any attacks made by that BEASTLORD resulted in an enemy Hero or (Monster?) being slain that phase, you can reroll hit rolls and wound rolls for attacks made by friendly BRAYHERD units wholly within 36" of that BEASTLORD instead.

 

 

 

It's an improvement over the previous version because you can activate it in the command phase, but now lasts for only that phase and the effect is worse unless your Beastlord kills a hero or monster (but with his awful attack profile that's pretty wishful thinking). Overall still a garbage hero unless there's some really good command traits or artefacts he can use.

Edited September 10, 2018 by The_Yellow_Sign

[Frozenbeast]

1 minute ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Kadeton in the other thread was able to use his photoshop skills to read the Beastlord's command ability: 

It's an improvement over the previous version because you can activate it in the command phase, but now lasts for only that phase and the effect is worse unless your Beastlord kills a hero or monster (but with his awful attack profile that's pretty wishful thinking). Overall still a garbage hero unless there's some really good command traits or artefacts he can use.

 

So let's hope for some nasty synergies from traits and artifacts in order to be able to activate that easier.

 

[GeneralZero]

first: sorry about the other thread that I started about BoC (I didn't find this one ;-) )

then here are my first thoughts....

We can just speculate now,, especially in concern about points and synergies but regarding to the warscrolls, one can see that  there are in this armys some super cheap units and MANY elite units, most of them beeing monsters with different tastes.

Lets have a look at the new upcoming Start collecting: one monster+2 battleline units+shaman. If you are in the horde like clan player, 3 boxes of this SC gives you a solid backbone to your army: 30 bestigors will be solid hitters, 30 ungors for shaff or bows, 3 shamans seems usefull in this magic powered army and.....tada 3 big monsters: that is the reason I like 3 boxes.

I'll build 2 cygors and one ghorgon. The later is a big center piece heavy hitter. But the most of fun comes with the 2 cygors. Why 2? Because I want them as a mobile artillery line heavy hitters. 2 cygors throwing rocks, supporting your heros, monsters  and troops. That is fun and then, smashing after a devastating charge....hummmm tasty.

There are somany different monsters to continue this army...I don't think that I'll go the tzangor route. Not enough beasty to me.

But adding some nice minautaur heros or a dragon ogor shagoth leading a unit of dragon ogors, that sounds good to me.

More of this, visually, those big giants add some verticality that I really like in an army: so, I'll probably get at least 3 SC boxes: 30 ung, 20+10 archers,(that makes 3 battlelines)  3 giants bulls, 2 shamans (or 3), a solid chief (dragon ogor or minautor) and cavalry. Depending on points, maybe another monster (Jabberslythe seems super fun to play with). Going this route may give an army for "cheap"  (well, cheap for a GW  army).

 

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

40 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Kadeton in the other thread was able to use his photoshop skills to read the Beastlord's command ability: 

It's an improvement over the previous version because you can activate it in the command phase, but now lasts for only that phase and the effect is worse unless your Beastlord kills a hero or monster (but with his awful attack profile that's pretty wishful thinking). Overall still a garbage hero unless there's some really good command traits or artefacts he can use.

That's underwhelming in the extreme.  The beastlord's way too pillowfisted to get real use out of his ability.

[Infernalslayer]

26 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

That's underwhelming in the extreme.  The beastlord's way too pillowfisted to get real use out of his ability.

Indeed, and they removed the Shield and Great Axe options from his profile so no 3+ save to stick  in combar for longer or -2 rend to get that damage through.

I dislike the new trend of only having weapon options for the current miniature being sold. Warhammer is and has been a hobby about conversions and people have been embracing this for decades. Now anyone that has older Beastlords with great axes or Beastlords converted with shields can't use them in WYSIWYG games.

[Kramer]

12 minutes ago, Infernalslayer said:

 

I dislike the new trend of only having weapon options for the current miniature being sold. Warhammer is and has been a hobby about conversions and people have been embracing this for decades. Now anyone that has older Beastlords with great axes or Beastlords converted with shields can't use them in WYSIWYG games.

Or they need to convert them, it is a hobby about conversions after all  

but I fully agree, but rather then different weapon options I would like a better base profile. A mutant daemon/beast/man that only rises to power by being the strongest of its kind... and he ends up being meh, in combat. Should be at least as good as a orruk big boss to match the fluff. 

*still excited though! And still painting up that great axe model I have lying around! 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Kramer

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

10 minutes ago, Infernalslayer said:

Indeed, and they removed the Shield and Great Axe options from his profile so no 3+ save to stick  in combar for longer or -2 rend to get that damage through.

I dislike the new trend of only having weapon options for the current miniature being sold. Warhammer is and has been a hobby about conversions and people have been embracing this for decades. Now anyone that has older Beastlords with great axes or Beastlords converted with shields can't use them in WYSIWYG games.

His profile says "I kill chaff" while his abilities say "use me to kill heroes". I'm sorry but I wouldn't trust him against anything tougher than Wizards and he just doesn't have the mobility to choose favorable combats.

I mean, maybe items and synergies will help, but that doesn't give me comfort. In my opinion magic items and allegience abilities should give you options to round out your character, not necessary crutches to help you perform the function for which you were created.

[Infernalslayer]

28 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Or they need to convert them, it is a hobby about conversions after all  

I am all up for conversions but i don't see how i could possibly convert this metal beauty to hold two smaller axes ?

But i agree,  it is the profile itself that is underwhelming, i had hoped for his ability to be upgraded in a similar way to an Aspiring Deathbringer or the old compendium Gorthor, in that you could trigger it each turn without having to kill things.

[kenshin620]

I guess their reasoning is "well if you wanted to kill heroes and monsters, use the doombull (which I assume can now only have a great axe)"

Despite that new command ability.....

 

Edit: Also this is just me but if you still have the PDF or GA Chaos around, I'd allow the other weapon options. It may not fly in a tourney setting but as we seemed to have established here, the Beastlord is the farthest thing from broken.

Edited September 10, 2018 by kenshin620

[tupavko]

18 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

I guess their reasoning is "well if you wanted to kill heroes and monsters, use the doombull (which I assume can now only have a great axe)"

Despite that new command ability.....

 

Edit: Also this is just me but if you still have the PDF or GA Chaos around, I'd allow the other weapon options. It may not fly in a tourney setting but as we seemed to have established here, the Beastlord is the farthest thing from broken.

That could be true, if only the Doombull wasn't a wuss himself. Many many ages ago he used to be a Murder Com (back in the Old Day) but now, he's just a mid-lower HtH specialist, with a solid buff for an awful unit (Bullgors), but he's not even close to be a Hero killer, unless we consider wizards, but it's not like you'll see a lot of wizards even close to the fight (especially since the endless spells)

i'm not a happy goat at the moment at all... it was really hard to make the Bestlord any worse and yet GW did it! He was a rubbish hero before, and he's even worse now. Was it to complicated to just copy Gorthor's comand ability?

Why they always make goats weak?

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

4 minutes ago, tupavko said:

That could be true, if only the Doombull wasn't a wuss himself. Many many ages ago he used to be a Murder Com (back in the Old Day) but now, he's just a mid-lower HtH specialist, with a solid buff for an awful unit (Bullgors), but he's not even close to be a Hero killer, unless we consider wizards, but it's not like you'll see a lot of wizards even close to the fight (especially since the endless spells)

i'm not a happy goat at the moment at all... it was really hard to make the Bestlord any worse and yet GW did it! He was a rubbish hero before, and he's even worse now. Was it to complicated to just copy Gorthor's comand ability?

Why they always make goats weak?

What makes Bullgors so weak?

[tupavko]

3 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

What makes Bullgors so weak?

The brutal reality of this game  Just kidding,

In my opinion the big issue about Bullgors is that they are not what they are supposed to be. I see the logic behind them (glass cannon), but this is a game where "optimizing what you can do well, without compromising too mcuh the rest" is the key. one of the reasons Chaos performs well is that most Chaos armies do good what they are supposed to be good at, without turning into a turbo-spam (40k style): Maggotkin are a tedious army, that really frustrates the enemy with terrain/objective control, Khorne is brutal if he puts your hands on you, tzeentch cna unleash MW hell.

it's ok to have Bullgors weak in defence (so no  trenchwar for them) but on the impact, they should be like Khorne Crushers, or GoreGruntas, you should fear the idea of 500kg Cow on steroids with a character of a huney badger, but with 7A rend-2 damage 3, they ain't going to break enemy lines at all, and most of the times will end up chewed up by the trench war. Besides that they are waaaaaaaaaaaaay too squishy for a monstuous rank braking bodybuilder: 4W nacked, is simply not enough to bring those guys where they need to get, because 4W are really easy to make and you start loosing their damage output whcih is the only reason why they exist. Think about 5 Blightkings (tough, fighty, super-synergic, 21W total 4+, can cover multiple roles)  same cost, which one would you rather have in your army? Or again 10 Tzaangor, it's the same story: ironically a Tzaangor with a great weapon is as good in melee as a Bullgor, in large numbers they are even better, but can run-charge, has a "6 ward save" and 10 of them have 20 wounds. Again, Skin-wolves have the same role as Bullgors but they are better, because they are fast and can chase and hunt down things.

If GW doesn't fix this, our play style stays what it was: a game of "throwing bodies" forward in a hope of swarming the enemy, without loosing too many models.

[decker_cky]

@tupavko Number of attacks is an unfair way to measure a unit that does 3 damage per attack. Ignoring bloodgreed, the unit has the potential to do 20 damage (axe units) or 21 damage (great axe units).  By being on low attack high damage models, the variance in high, which swings both ways but makes it more variable (ie, you don't know how much damage you're likely to cause). This is exacerbated by a 4+ to hit, and by bloodgreed which can swing things one way or the other.

If you're saying bullgors don't hit hard enough and aren't resilient enough, it's probably better to just classify that as "they are too expensive even after their reduction", which may be fair. 

Right now, a big problem with bullgors is bestigors being almost as hitting, faster, more resilient, and very aggressively priced. 

IMO bullgors are a 20 pt drop or a 3+ to hit away from being a very good value unit, but in a mixed army (absent changes) you'll still find value from bullgors and a doombull as a hard hitter that doesn't have the footprint of bestigors. 

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, kenshin620 said:

Edit: Also this is just me but if you still have the PDF or GA Chaos around, I'd allow the other weapon options. It may not fly in a tourney setting but as we seemed to have established here, the Beastlord is the farthest thing from broken.

So... it would be completely out with any tournaments ... with the new Warscroll in play, and with a date associated with it that would, unfortunately, completely depreciate the old Warscroll.  And technically would be out for a game between friends unless you had some form of agreement ... 

“WARSCROLLS
Q: If I have two different warscrolls for the same unit,
can I choose which to use, or must I use the most recently published version? Do I have to use any errata that applies to the warscroll?
A: You must use the most recently published warscroll and must use the most recently published errata that you or your opponent have available. Warscrolls with a date of publication are always considered to have been published more recently than a warscroll that doesn’t have one. If you have two warscrolls for a unit and neither has a date of publication, you can choose which warscroll to use.” (Core rules FAQ July 2018 p.2)

 

[Johann]

I was so hopeful about a change to the Beastlord, but they did the wrong thing ... weakend the ability and the limitation to slay a model stays the same, so like always he will die and not using the ability ?

I really like the goats, but why is it so hard for GW to make good rules for them (the rules were always bad for the goats)?

 I don’t want to rely on artifacts/Traits, I just want good Warscroll. Just some proper Damage for the Beastlord or at least a easy to use command ability...

 

edit: sorry for the negativity, but the current state of the herd made me really frustrated and I have the feeling, that GW will not make enough changes to warscrolls (too squishy, too little Rend, no mortal wounds) to boost the army.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Johann

[tupavko]

16 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

@tupavko Number of attacks is an unfair way to measure a unit that does 3 damage per attack. Ignoring bloodgreed, the unit has the potential to do 20 damage (axe units) or 21 damage (great axe units).  By being on low attack high damage models, the variance in high, which swings both ways but makes it more variable (ie, you don't know how much damage you're likely to cause). This is exacerbated by a 4+ to hit, and by bloodgreed which can swing things one way or the other.

If you're saying bullgors don't hit hard enough and aren't resilient enough, it's probably better to just classify that as "they are too expensive even after their reduction", which may be fair. 

Right now, a big problem with bullgors is bestigors being almost as hitting, faster, more resilient, and very aggressively priced. 

IMO bullgors are a 20 pt drop or a 3+ to hit away from being a very good value unit, but in a mixed army (absent changes) you'll still find value from bullgors and a doombull as a hard hitter that doesn't have the footprint of bestigors. 

That's the point I don't think they need a point reduction! they can cost even less than now, but still I think they are less efficient hard hitters than many other, even bestigors are better in that role. I think GW can even bring them to 200pts if they make them good at what they are supposed to be! 

I don't like usually to compare different units from different armies, but it still is a sort of a becnhmark. 7A at 4+/3+ rend -2 damage 3 + bloodgreed IS TERRIBLE no matter how you judge it:

7A at 4+ is 3,5

3,5 that wounds on 3s is 2,31 + 1/6th chance of triggering Bloodgreed which is 0,58 (that hits on 4+ and wounds on 3s so 0,2)

So we get 2,31 + 0,2 = 2,5 let's suppose our enemy has no armor (yet 4+ is not that uncommon) that's 7,5 wounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (no armor, no ward for opponent)

THAT IS BAAAAAAAAAAAD for a HtH specialist, not enough attacks, not enough damage, not RELIABLE!!!!!

by the way 5 Blightkings (NOT HtH specialists) have 3A each that trigger d6 hits for every 6 so

15A at 3+/3+ you get 9,9 but you trigger 2,5 d6 attacks so 7,5 on avarage

so we get 14,9A on 3+ = 9,84 wounds

Blightkings have no rend so let's say in this case the adversary has a 4+, that is still 4,92wounds

So Blightkins that are a lot more reliable, have almost a double amount of wounds, an armor save, and cost the same are a similar HtH damage specialist, except that that's not what they are.

 

Bullgors need to become a lot more reliable, so I agree with you about 3+ to hit, 3A(at least) need 5 wounds (they are the beefiest monstruous infantry), impact hits (they are mad cows, how is it possible they don't have impact hits... Pamplona anyone?)  and they can cost even 200pts but they have to be able to deal damage, a lot of it!

The same goes for a Doombull... Come on look at Ogroid, the skinny cousin: he fights better, survives better and is even a mage!!!!! Ogroid deals impact hits, a massive hulking Bull Lord no, he goes around as a happy camper dealing 3A! 3A, what kind of Hero is he supposed to kill with that? He gets eaten even by a Megaboss! 

I'm not talking here only about meta, or power, it's also about the lore. Bullgors are supposed to be hulking monsters, even in Total War they are the most damaging monstruous infantry, or even in 7th/8th edition Beastmen were rubbish but at least Minos were nasty, and a Doombull was a true Murder Cow! I don't want Beastmen to be the top-tier army, but if I play a mad-cow party, I want to play mad-cows, not badly armored and equipped skaven!

[decker_cky]

26 minutes ago, Johann said:

I was so hopeful about a change to the Beastlord, but they did the wrong thing ... weakend the ability and the limitation to slay a model stays the same, so like always he will die and not using the ability ?

I really like the goats, but why is it so hard for GW to make good rules for them (the rules were always bad for the goats)?

 I don’t want to rely on artifacts/Traits, I just want good Warscroll. Just some proper Damage for the Beastlord or at least a easy to use command ability...

 

edit: sorry for the negativity, but the current state of the herd made me really frustrated and I have the feeling, that GW will not make enough changes to warscrolls (too squishy, too little Rend, no mortal wounds) to boost the army.

New grisly trophy is a better combat buff (+1 to hit is worse than rerolls to hit unless you have an ability triggering off 6's to hit), but worse movement buff, which I think is actually a buff overall (beastlord doesn't tend to be ahead of the army, which is already fast).

The timing of the command ability is a huge bonus, as is the fact that you can center the command ability around another beastlord on the table as long as a beastlord triggered the ability (set up a better buff aura). 

Even factoring in the loss of great axe and shield, it's a huge buff. 

And while the beastlord certainly won't one-turn many heroes, let's not pretend 6 attacks, 3+ 3+ rend-1, reroll 1's to hit, reroll all failed wounds isn't a solid combat statline. Against heroes, it averages just over 4 wounds before saves, roughly 2.75 wounds against a 4+ save hero (identical mathematically to a chaos lord on daemonic steed with 4 3+ 3+ rend -1 2 damage attacks, ignoring the mount).  By having more rolls and built in rerolls, the beastlord is actually more reliable at causing damage. 

edit: Sorry, screwed up. 

Beastlord against a hero does 4.148148 rend -1 wounds. 

Chaos lord on daemonic mount does 3.555556 rend -1 wounds and 1 non-rend wound (mount) on average.  

Very close between them when you factor in saves (within .15 unsaved wounds for each of 3+ 4+ and 5+ save targets), but chaos lord a hair ahead at each step. Beastlord costs just over half as much. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by decker_cky

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

By any chance are you the same decker_cky from the Herdstone forum, back in the olden times?

[decker_cky]

The very same.  Just older, and with less hobby time.

PS: If anyone paints their beasts of chaos and they aren't blue, they're doing it wrong.  

Edited September 10, 2018 by decker_cky

[Nin Win]

26 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

PS: If anyone paints their beasts of chaos and they aren't blue, they're doing it wrong.  

Your autocorrect clearly changed pink to blue by mistake.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Nin Win

[Kramer]

59 minutes ago, tupavko said:

That's the point I don't think they need a point reduction! they can cost even less than now, but still I think they are less efficient hard hitters than many other, even bestigors are better in that role. I think GW can even bring them to 200pts if they make them good at what they are supposed to be! 

I don't like usually to compare different units from different armies, but it still is a sort of a becnhmark. 7A at 4+/3+ rend -2 damage 3 + bloodgreed IS TERRIBLE no matter how you judge it:

7A at 4+ is 3,5

3,5 that wounds on 3s is 2,31 + 1/6th chance of triggering Bloodgreed which is 0,58 (that hits on 4+ and wounds on 3s so 0,2)

So we get 2,31 + 0,2 = 2,5 let's suppose our enemy has no armor (yet 4+ is not that uncommon) that's 7,5 wounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (no armor, no ward for opponent)

THAT IS BAAAAAAAAAAAD for a HtH specialist, not enough attacks, not enough damage, not RELIABLE!!!!!

by the way 5 Blightkings (NOT HtH specialists) have 3A each that trigger d6 hits for every 6 so

15A at 3+/3+ you get 9,9 but you trigger 2,5 d6 attacks so 7,5 on avarage

so we get 14,9A on 3+ = 9,84 wounds

Blightkings have no rend so let's say in this case the adversary has a 4+, that is still 4,92wounds

So Blightkins that are a lot more reliable, have almost a double amount of wounds, an armor save, and cost the same are a similar HtH damage specialist, except that that's not what they are.

 

Bullgors need to become a lot more reliable, so I agree with you about 3+ to hit, 3A(at least) need 5 wounds (they are the beefiest monstruous infantry), impact hits (they are mad cows, how is it possible they don't have impact hits... Pamplona anyone?)  and they can cost even 200pts but they have to be able to deal damage, a lot of it!

The same goes for a Doombull... Come on look at Ogroid, the skinny cousin: he fights better, survives better and is even a mage!!!!! Ogroid deals impact hits, a massive hulking Bull Lord no, he goes around as a happy camper dealing 3A! 3A, what kind of Hero is he supposed to kill with that? He gets eaten even by a Megaboss! 

I'm not talking here only about meta, or power, it's also about the lore. Bullgors are supposed to be hulking monsters, even in Total War they are the most damaging monstruous infantry, or even in 7th/8th edition Beastmen were rubbish but at least Minos were nasty, and a Doombull was a true Murder Cow! I don't want Beastmen to be the top-tier army, but if I play a mad-cow party, I want to play mad-cows, not badly armored and equipped skaven!

I agree with fluff representation on the battlefield. It should do what the model looks like. 

In the defence of the bullgors and the rules that we don’t know about yet! There could be huge synergies around the corner from the spells, changed scrolls and the allegiance abilities. Which is also something that is impossible to compare. Because how do you value in the lack of armour BUT the huge potential advantage of keeping them of the table the first turn? Or them being able to get those kills in to activate the summoning. Or a spell that gives them animalistic fury and boosting the amount of attacks. 

Obviously I’m just guessing at the potential rules. But like you said yourself synergies add a lot value and can easily make a okay unit ace. 

[Galas]

After playing Warhammer Total War, and how cool Minotaurs are there (Their charge animations are just beautifull, look them up on youtube), I absolutely agree. I don't make my minotaurs cheaper... I want them more powerfull.  +1 attack, +1 wound per head, and MW on the charge. Thats all they need. Make them 20 points more expensive to compensate per 3, and thats enough.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

9 minutes ago, Galas said:

After playing Warhammer Total War, and how cool Minotaurs are there (Their charge animations are just beautifull, look them up on youtube), I absolutely agree. I don't make my minotaurs cheaper... I want them more powerfull.  +1 attack, +1 wound per head, and MW on the charge. Thats all they need. Make them 20 points more expensive to compensate per 3, and thats enough.

That roll, right? Love it.

The Beastmen army book gave minotaurs impact damage whenever they charged. I'd love for that again.

[Kramer]

4 hours ago, Infernalslayer said:

I am all up for conversions but i don't see how i could possibly convert this metal beauty to hold two smaller axes

Two smaller? Just add an extra big one  

[decker_cky]

Why convert? You have a beastlord and beastlord share the same profile regardless of equipment.