AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Death1942]

Why not go Ghyran for the gyrstrike weapon?  That seems to be the best weapon to toss to a doombull.

I would be tempted to go 3x10 bestigor before loading up on bullgor like that but not sure if you can fit that 3rd unit in without reshaping the list a lot.  Decent summoning pool but I would probably want more ungors.

I know the footprint is huge but a unit of 30x gor is pretty brutal to place towards a centre objective.  Can cause your opponent a lot of headaches trying to deal with it.  I think you can cover the rest of the board with your other units to really control everything.

[Maddpainting]

It is a great artefact weapon and it works great, but most will take Gavespawn Gnarlblade on him (If not taking a BL), or something else on something different.

I love it on the Shaggoth personally. My Doombulls are almost always Gnarlblade or Thermalrider to shoot off and solo small things.

[Myrdin]

6 hours ago, Death1942 said:

Why not go Ghyran for the gyrstrike weapon?  That seems to be the best weapon to toss to a doombull.

Unless both players agree to play with the realm mechanics, I dont think you can legally bring it, but by all means If I am wrong on this let me know.
As far as I know the only army that doesnt really care about this and can always bring realms artifacts is CoS, and thats also just for Ghyran and Aqshi depending on the City.

[Maddpainting]

3 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Unless both players agree to play with the realm mechanics, I dont think you can legally bring it, but by all means If I am wrong on this let me know.
As far as I know the only army that doesnt really care about this and can always bring realms artifacts is CoS, and thats also just for Ghyran and Aqshi depending on the City.

Realm is a part of the game, its a core mechanic just like terrain is. No large event opts out of it, and i haven't seen a local yet that doesn't uses it either. Does your group opt out of it or something? I'm genuinely curious now.

[Myrdin]

15 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Realm is a part of the game, its a core mechanic just like terrain is. No large event opts out of it, and i haven't seen a local yet that doesn't uses it either. Does your group opt out of it or something? I'm genuinely curious now.

Not sure how other in our group play, but me and my buds usually dont use the realm system unless beforehead agreed upon. I am not sure why or when it was decided, but since I prefer to learn a game by playing rather then sitting down and binge read rules, I never really questioned this up till the point I started interacting with people here and noticing most here play it as a core part of the game. 
Heck this being the case I dont even know how it should work properly under normal circumstances, when its not agreed upon that "we gonna run this or that realm" meaning you can count on using the realm artifacts at that point. Since I dont get as many AoS games in as I used a year ago, I never really questioned it since it wasnt necessary for what I was bringing with my Beasts anyway. To be completely honest I think I`ve never even used a realm artifact on my heroes before.

[Maddpainting]

Normally each person picks a realm they are from, then you roll off and the winner plays out of that realms for the battlefield spells. But you still keep your artefact from where you were (Think of it as a sporting event, both has a home and the winner gets to fight in their home) this is important mostly b.c of the spells. Almost all high damage hordes (including us) wants Aqshy b.c of the spell to give a unit +1D, so if you have Skeletons, Ghouls, Bestigors, Clanrats, etc.. with +1D on their weapons its really strong, but also b.c of Thermalrider Cloak and Ignax Scales (for speed or protection).

Optional, you can randomly pick a realm, our local started to do this b.c for events you don't get to pick your realm for spells (you do for your artefact still, you always do for that), we try to play random just to mock events as we go to them.

For us Aqshy, Ghyran, and Hysh are the better realms, imo, mostly b.c of artefacts and some of the spells/Command abilities. 

[Myrdin]

We had an AoS game day where the Realms were predetermined by table you were playing on, but even so we didnt include the artifacts.

 

So essentially: I can always choose a realm for my army. So does the opponent. I can take the artifact so can he, and then we roll of to see whose realm it actually is for the use of spells, but without impacting the artifact brought, meaning me or him suddenly wont loose it and have to select one from the army artifacts. It only affects the spells for that realm. 

Ok that makes sense. Good to know, thanks man.

How do you get the +1D from Aqshi though ?

[Maddpainting]

Correct, and for Aqshy, its just a Realm spell, all realms gives all wizards +7 more spells.

[Sauriv]

I have attended a few tournaments in Sweden and they only used realm artifacts. 

I guess the spells are included in the core but it's up to the TO to decide. In my experience the TO allows artifacts but exclude the spells, fighting on "neutral grounds" . The motivation for this has been to keep the battles as balanced and fair as possible. 

[Maddpainting]

7 hours ago, Sauriv said:

I have attended a few tournaments in Sweden and they only used realm artifacts. 

I guess the spells are included in the core but it's up to the TO to decide. In my experience the TO allows artifacts but exclude the spells, fighting on "neutral grounds" . The motivation for this has been to keep the battles as balanced and fair as possible. 

All the major events in the US uses the realms, each game they are pre picked and you don't know till the night of the event. I've been a couple of them and it seems there is only 1 part that is ignored, and its the realm of beasts Random Monster/Beast rules, well that makes sense as its an extra mechanic to deal with and just slows the game down. But realm of Ghur is good to play out of. 

Even Call to Glory aka CanCon played realm rules.

ALso most events from what i've seen allowed Mercernaries Company allies as well. Those are really fun and cool TBH. i keep thinking about running a few myself.

[Kasper]

@Myrdin https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Age_of_Sigmar/Tactics#Realms_Of_Battle

Not sure if it is updated with FAQs etc. We never really play with those, only Realm artefacts.

[Death1942]

12 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

All the major events in the US uses the realms, each game they are pre picked and you don't know till the night of the event. I've been a couple of them and it seems there is only 1 part that is ignored, and its the realm of beasts Random Monster/Beast rules, well that makes sense as its an extra mechanic to deal with and just slows the game down. But realm of Ghur is good to play out of. 

Even Call to Glory aka CanCon played realm rules.

ALso most events from what i've seen allowed Mercernaries Company allies as well. Those are really fun and cool TBH. i keep thinking about running a few myself.

Cancon picked the realm well in advance though, hence why you saw lots of the healing endless spell in lists because it was in that realm.

[Death1942]

Watched this today and enjoyed the list a lot.  Not sure about the tactics from the opponent but I loved how the beasts played.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Death1942

[Maddpainting]

4 hours ago, Death1942 said:

Cancon picked the realm well in advance though, hence why you saw lots of the healing endless spell in lists because it was in that realm.

But they used them, that was the point.

[Death1942]

9 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

But they used them, that was the point.

Yup it is the main way to play.  I was just offering a contrast with the US scene where you don't know the realm until the night before, whereas it seems the Aussie scene picks it well in advance and you can adjust your list for it.

[Maddpainting]

2 hours ago, Death1942 said:

Yup it is the main way to play.  I was just offering a contrast with the US scene where you don't know the realm until the night before, whereas it seems the Aussie scene picks it well in advance and you can adjust your list for it.

I can understand doing it both ways for sure. B.c if everyone knows its fair and some realms effects some units slightly better (mostly the spells). But not knowing won't influence the lists. 

For me if i knew, i would still take the same list as i never get spells off for the most part lol.

[Death1942]

Thinking of running this as my first Beasts army and would love some thoughts on it:

Gavespawn 1970 points
Ghyran

Ghorgon

Mindstealer Sphiranx

Desolating Beastherd
Ghorgon
Beastlord, General, Ghyrstrike, Unraveling aura
30x Bestigors

6x Bullgors, Great Axes
10x Gors

Great Bray Shaman. Tendrils of Atrophy
Great Bray Shaman, Vicious Stranglethorns
40x Ungor Raiders

10x Ungors, Swords
Wildfire Taurus


I know the second Ghorgon probably isn't ideal but I am going 3x starter kits so need to get some use out of him first.  More Bestigors is probably the better play over Bullgors but I love the models and want to try them out first.  Sphinx can be screened by the horde on one flank and the taurus on the other and combined I should be able to control a lot of combats (maybe making the bullgors a bit better).

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Death1942

[Popisdead]

On 1/31/2020 at 12:35 PM, Fluffy Moo Moo said:

The reason I take 3 man units is it’s easier to get the 9” wholly within khorne buff. I would absolutely take 6 man units instead to get more of a buff outta the doombull, but honestly because Gorshrak debuffs the ENEMY unit so that MY units get +1 to hit - MSU is fine. Further, you tend to put activate your opponent and it lessens the chance that an entire unit goes poof. 

 

Btw the argument for a bigger unit is that you can get a much higher usage out of the doombull buff, and throw more attacks - but meh.

 

Gorshrak in my opinion is a must take now for BoC - almost on the same level as Belakor. His spell does D3 mortal wounds (meh) but any of your units attacking the affected unit now get +1 to hit. Oh did your opponent bring 30 super dudes... enjoy everything that charged them getting +1 to hit!

Yeah I've been toying with that as well.  I keep wanting to run Warherd like you could with KHorne in 6th edition.  MSU spam.  I've had abysmal rolls with 6-man bull units.  I think as low as 3 hits from 6 guys once... that 4+ feels like a 6+ some days.

I find in general Warhead isn't CP hungry.  If the command ability was still an AoE I would feel it had more mileage for sure.

I had missed the +1 to hit spell on Gorshrak cause I kept reading the retinue warscroll.  I just based up my old Mordheim warband to count as Gorshrak's retinue

Thanks kindly @Fluffy Moo Moo for rekindling my drive with WArherd.  I was playing Darkwalker WArherd and having fun until CoS came out and totally distracted me.  BACK TO THE BEASTS!

On 2/1/2020 at 12:52 PM, Maddpainting said:

Oh, battlescribe people don't know the rules a lot of the time, but you can actually build your own and share it. Why not use the free website army builder from GW?

Battlescribe is a reliant crutch

21 hours ago, Death1942 said:

I know the second Ghorgon probably isn't ideal 

So in defence of Ghorgons, they are tricky, not ideal, not optimal but when they go off with hot rolls you get lucky with like 20 dead and a unit deleted.  Then there are other times they do 1 wound tops.  They are very swingy which I feel is the issue with Warherd.  

I've played with Ghorgons a bit and like them even if they lack mechanics to make them tactically reliable.   

[Death1942]

11 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

So in defence of Ghorgons, they are tricky, not ideal, not optimal but when they go off with hot rolls you get lucky with like 20 dead and a unit deleted.  Then there are other times they do 1 wound tops.  They are very swingy which I feel is the issue with Warherd.  

I've played with Ghorgons a bit and like them even if they lack mechanics to make them tactically reliable.   

The problem I see is if something is not optimal in an army that isn't exactly top tier then you are shooting yourself in the foot by taking it.  A shame because I love the model and I want it to be good but why carry more of a burden than you need to?  I think going forward I will simply replace it with more Bestigor once I try the list out a few times.

[Myrdin]

8 hours ago, Death1942 said:

The problem I see is if something is not optimal in an army that isn't exactly top tier then you are shooting yourself in the foot by taking it.  A shame because I love the model and I want it to be good but why carry more of a burden than you need to?  I think going forward I will simply replace it with more Bestigor once I try the list out a few times.

Pretty much this.

Despite that, I tend to bring one, sometimes two of these, especially after the price drop. If nothing else a Gorghon is now a cheap distraction carnifex at worst. And if it takes the heat of your more expensive stuff while not amazing it at least serves a purpose. IMO the warherd as a whole suffers from low Hit rate and Low number of Attacks. I wouldnt mind the hit rate if all Warherd stuff had +1/2 attacks on their profiles (DB would have to get slightly more expensive), to be what minotaurs always used to be > a glasshammer that dishes out tons of high strength attacks. Because the reduction of attacks per model with the 4+ To Hit and No way to buff it is really hurting them a lot.

Its to bad that Bloodgreed is such stupid rule. It should have been the same that CoS Kharybdis has > if an enemy MODEL is killed, not a whole unit. That would at least make it somewhat effective in regaining those wounds. But ah well. For our own sakes I hope when the time for re-release comes our battle tome wont be amongst the first 5 books, since those tend to always be crappy. My hope is we can get a double release with some other powerful army, so that our power level is adecvately increased. New plastic kit Beastlord, Shaggoth and Centigors would be very welcome at this point as well.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Myrdin

[decker_cky]

Warherd brings piles of wounds for slaanesh to feast on for depravity, and tends to have low numbers of high damage attacks making them extremely vulnerable to negatives to hit (like tzeentch brings in droves). With that in mind, I don't think ghorgons are the biggest issue - as mentioned they're essentially a cheap support unit. Bullgors with their 4+ to hit though are too vulnerable to too many opponents.

[BarfAtTheMoon]

So who else is probably replacing their cygors with fomoroid crushers? 40 points less, better shooting, better abilities, no degrading wound chart...

I think i may even bring 2 of these and 2 long catbois to fill out my ally slots.  They just seem to good not to have, even with the fact that they're affected negatively by the herdstone.  Should be easy enough to keep them out of its range while still being effective for their price.

[Maddpainting]

5 hours ago, BarfAtTheMoon said:

So who else is probably replacing their cygors with fomoroid crushers? 40 points less, better shooting, better abilities, no degrading wound chart...

I think i may even bring 2 of these and 2 long catbois to fill out my ally slots.  They just seem to good not to have, even with the fact that they're affected negatively by the herdstone.  Should be easy enough to keep them out of its range while still being effective for their price.

Fomoroid Crusher vs Cygor

Can't be in battalions for us
Can't get re-rolls to to hit as easily as Cygor, and on average does less damage in shooting (Cygor shooting is better if you aim for wizards or in Khorne for re-rolls)
Shooting is 6" shorter
4 less wounds
No unbind spells
2" less movement
Can't Ambush like Cygor
Melee is same, but weaker vs Wizards (Cygor average vs 5+ no/rr 2.22, Crusher 2.37)
Both "can" deal MW's for some reason, Crusher is on the charge roll X dice and each 6 is 1 MW, a average charge roll will give 1 MW, Cygor does 1 MW for each Denial, with average rolls a 42% chance each time.

So yeah maybe it is 40pts cheaper, but honestly those 40pts are worth it for us to keep the Cygor IMO.

[Death1942]

31 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Fomoroid Crusher vs Cygor

Can't be in battalions for us
Can't get re-rolls to to hit as easily as Cygor, and on average does less damage in shooting (Cygor shooting is better if you aim for wizards or in Khorne for re-rolls)
Shooting is 6" shorter
4 less wounds
No unbind spells
2" less movement
Can't Ambush like Cygor
Melee is same, but weaker vs Wizards (Cygor average vs 5+ no/rr 2.22, Crusher 2.37)
Both "can" deal MW's for some reason, Crusher is on the charge roll X dice and each 6 is 1 MW, a average charge roll will give 1 MW, Cygor does 1 MW for each Denial, with average rolls a 42% chance each time.

So yeah maybe it is 40pts cheaper, but honestly those 40pts are worth it for us to keep the Cygor IMO.

And I wouldn't even run the Cygor in the first place...

[decker_cky]

They're both 'okay' value, I think. Neither is good enough to *really* move the needle.  8" move + 18" shooting is a significant advantage for the Cygor compared to 6" move + 12" shooting. Shooting is actually 8" shorter factoring in the movement, and the cygor doesn't need to expose itself. 

Head to head, the Cygor shooting averages more damage against wizards, plus 4+ or better armour saves (which means that the Fomoroid is better value shooting). 

Cygor can also heal if it kills a unit in melee.