AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Derptau]

23 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

A lot of people don't understand BoC can have a lot of rend, now with Doombulls being 100pts, the Herdstone, the spell, a couple relics, we can easiy get a lot of -2 rend.

Also Tzaangor shamans on disks are just fine for the points, a Shaggoth would be nice if it came down 20pts at least. But honestly, they are not bad, its just that DO's are bad so there is no reason to take it, if DO got cheaper, then taking one would make since. he can cast, buff a unit, and melee, so it should be a little more costly.

This, I've been getting my dudes up to rend -3(ish) reliably late game now.  

[Maddpainting]

There are some shared warscrolls that are different prices.
 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Maddpainting

[DarrinTheOccult]

7 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

There are many shared warscrolls that are different prices.

You always have to use the latest released warscroll for a unit and the latest point values, wherever they are published

Edited January 4, 2020 by DarrinTheOccult

[Maddpainting]

Yeah that make sense.

[PONCHOGRANDE]

35 minutes ago, Derptau said:

It would be for both. The points and Warscrolls are shared.

 

Shaman going down is nice, but WTF enlightened? 

Did we see any changes to Skyfires or Enlightened actual rules? 

They both lost the DAEMON keyword, but that’s it. I imagine Enlightened went up because Tzeentch armies have more ways to buff their damage output now with Agendas and the Fatemaster’s new CA.

Sucks to get caught in the crossfire though. At the very least we can now access Tome of Eyes with Tzaangor Shamans for some much needed reliable casting.

[Maddpainting]

They get multiple +1 to hits and +atks, they lost the Daemon keyword b.c they they would get the army bonus of -1 to be hit in melee. In the DOT book, they are WAY better than in BoC, we give them 3" movement and maybe some +atks if we spend CP, they get a lot more buffs now, more spell support, on top of those +hits/atks. 

[Fazhak]

Hello all. First off, thank you to all who joined the discussion on exploring additional opportunities for our lesser used units. I think there might be something there, especially with regards to both flying skirmisher-type units. Likewise, I think Decker's observation about high rend warrants greater attention.

So, thank you to everyone for continuing to share their experiences testing these options.

On a different topic, with the recent point change to Warherd units, I updated my Pestilent Throng list... and discovered that Nurgle can be a surprisingly good home for Warherd. With the new point costs complementing Nurgle's speed bonuses (from both the Feculent Gnarlmaw's run-and-charge buff and the Great Unclean One's Doomsday Bell), I'm learning that a Pestilent Throng  run under the Maggotkin of Nurgle Allegiance can present an unforeseen challenge to my opponents.

In my Pestilent Throng list below, I'm able to consistently rush two Ghorgons at my opponent's lines on the first turn, complementing my first turn Centigor charge. With the point deductions, I'm also able to dependably follow up that impact in the following turn with a Doombull and six Bullgor with great axes.

During placement, the Great Unclean One and Sorcerer are usually to be placed center of my deployment area. The Centigors and Great Bray-Shaman are placed to the left of the Great Unclean One, the Warherd units placed to its right, all within range to benefit from the Great Unclean One's Reverberating Summons. The Feculent Gnarlmaw is placed in front of the Warherd units, so that they can run and still charge.

The Centigors can already run and charge, and run 21"+d6" (14" base, +1" from their Beast Banner, +3" from the Great Bray-Shaman, +3" from the Great Unclean One). Casting the Sorcerer's Blades of Putrefaction spell on the Centigors, when combined with their own Drunken Revelry, makes the Centigors inflict MW on 5+ to hit rolls. With four attacks per model, that can be a lot of first turn MW impact before even considering the unit's actual attacks (which can get to be 3+/3+ on the Centigor Spears, re-rolling to wound rolls, when factoring in both Drunken Revelry and the Cycle of Corruption's Fecund Vigor).

If I successfully cast Blades of Putrefaction, then I run the Centigors forward and (odds are) annihilate an important opposing unit. If I am unsuccessful in rolling the required seven to cast that spell, I have the option of swinging the Centigor to support the Ghorgons.

With the point deductions for Warherd, I can now field a Doombull and Bullgors to support my two Ghorgons. Running the Warherd units forward at least 10"+d6" (Doombull and Bullgors move 7"; Ghorgon initially move 8"), I can either roll high or use my command points (since my Doombull is now nearby) to get the two Ghorgon forward 17". That typically puts the two Ghorgon within charge range on the first turn, with the Doombull and Bullgors positioned to support in the following turn.

It's a magic capable list, too. While claiming objectives in the center of the board, the Great Unclean One also typically casts Glorious Afflictions on whatever opposing unit I need slowed down, as well as Plague Wind to heal my Warherd units.  The Sorcerer (with three casting opportunities per turn, thanks to both Muttergrub and Balewind Vortex) casts Blades of Putrefaction and Mystic Shield on the Centigors, if possible, as well as Arcane Bolt on opposing Heroes. My Great Bray-Shaman is thus free to cast Foul Regenesis each turn, which if successful lets me set the Cycle of Corruption to whatever I need for the moment.

With three Ungor units to screen and/or claim backfield objectives, this list has several tools in its toolbox. It's fun to play and often a bit of a surprise to opponents, which usually don't expect either its speed (especially among the Warherd) nor its variety of threats.

What do you think?

Allegiance: Nurgle
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Great Unclean One (340)
- General
- Plague Flail & Doomsday Bell
- Trait: Grandfather's Blessing
- Artefact: The Endless Gift
- Lore of Virulence: Glorious Afflictions
Sorcerer (120)
- Artefact: Muttergrub
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
Great-Bray Shaman (100)
Doombull (100)

Battleline
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields

Units
6 x Bullgors (280)
- Great Axes
20 x Centigors (320)

Behemoths
Ghorgon (160)
Ghorgon (160)

Battalions
Pestilent Throng (200)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 157

[Myrdin]

Can anyone list the actual changes to All the Tzaangor stuff as far as OUR book is concerned into one cohesive post ?

Edited January 4, 2020 by Myrdin

[Maddpainting]

11 minutes ago, Fazhak said:

Hello all. First off, thank you to all who joined the discussion on exploring additional opportunities for our lesser used units. I think there might be something there, especially with regards to both flying skirmisher-type units. Likewise, I think Decker's observation about high rend warrants greater attention.

So, thank you to everyone for continuing to share their experiences testing these options.

On a different topic, with the recent point change to Warherd units, I updated my Pestilent Throng list... and discovered that Nurgle can be a surprisingly good home for Warherd. With the new point costs complementing Nurgle's speed bonuses (from both the Feculent Gnarlmaw's run-and-charge buff and the Great Unclean One's Doomsday Bell), I'm learning that a Pestilent Throng  run under the Maggotkin of Nurgle Allegiance can present an unforeseen challenge to my opponents.

In my Pestilent Throng list below, I'm able to consistently rush two Ghorgons at my opponent's lines on the first turn, complementing my first turn Centigor charge. With the point deductions, I'm also able to dependably follow up that impact in the following turn with a Doombull and six Bullgor with great axes.

During placement, the Great Unclean One and Sorcerer are usually to be placed center of my deployment area. The Centigors and Great Bray-Shaman are placed to the left of the Great Unclean One, the Warherd units placed to its right, all within range to benefit from the Great Unclean One's Reverberating Summons. The Feculent Gnarlmaw is placed in front of the Warherd units, so that they can run and still charge.

The Centigors can already run and charge, and run 21"+d6" (14" base, +1" from their Beast Banner, +3" from the Great Bray-Shaman, +3" from the Great Unclean One). Casting the Sorcerer's Blades of Putrefaction spell on the Centigors, when combined with their own Drunken Revelry, makes the Centigors inflict MW on 5+ to hit rolls. With four attacks per model, that can be a lot of first turn MW impact before even considering the unit's actual attacks (which can get to be 3+/3+ on the Centigor Spears, re-rolling to wound rolls, when factoring in both Drunken Revelry and the Cycle of Corruption's Fecund Vigor).

If I successfully cast Blades of Putrefaction, then I run the Centigors forward and (odds are) annihilate an important opposing unit. If I am unsuccessful in rolling the required seven to cast that spell, I have the option of swinging the Centigor to support the Ghorgons.

With the point deductions for Warherd, I can now field a Doombull and Bullgors to support my two Ghorgons. Running the Warherd units forward at least 10"+d6" (Doombull and Bullgors move 7"; Ghorgon initially move 8"), I can either roll high or use my command points (since my Doombull is now nearby) to get the two Ghorgon forward 17". That typically puts the two Ghorgon within charge range on the first turn, with the Doombull and Bullgors positioned to support in the following turn.

It's a magic capable list, too. While claiming objectives in the center of the board, the Great Unclean One also typically casts Glorious Afflictions on whatever opposing unit I need slowed down, as well as Plague Wind to heal my Warherd units.  The Sorcerer (with three casting opportunities per turn, thanks to both Muttergrub and Balewind Vortex) casts Blades of Putrefaction and Mystic Shield on the Centigors, if possible, as well as Arcane Bolt on opposing Heroes. My Great Bray-Shaman is thus free to cast Foul Regenesis each turn, which if successful lets me set the Cycle of Corruption to whatever I need for the moment.

With three Ungor units to screen and/or claim backfield objectives, this list has several tools in its toolbox. It's fun to play and often a bit of a surprise to opponents, which usually don't expect either its speed (especially among the Warherd) nor its variety of threats.

What do you think?

Allegiance: Nurgle
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Great Unclean One (340)
- General
- Plague Flail & Doomsday Bell
- Trait: Grandfather's Blessing
- Artefact: The Endless Gift
- Lore of Virulence: Glorious Afflictions
Sorcerer (120)
- Artefact: Muttergrub
- Lore of Malignance: Blades of Putrefaction
Great-Bray Shaman (100)
Doombull (100)

Battleline
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields

Units
6 x Bullgors (280)
- Great Axes
20 x Centigors (320)

Behemoths
Ghorgon (160)
Ghorgon (160)

Battalions
Pestilent Throng (200)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 157

yeah, IMO Warherds might be very strong now, even just in BoC, with 100pt Doombulls they are almost a steal, being 10pts more than a BL with more wounds and potential more damage.

They are for sure a lot slower moving across the table, but with MSU of 2-4 Doombulls, and 4-6 Bullgors in 3-6mans, you can still 1 drop with Nurgle or Khorne. Also with Darwalkers and a relic for a Doobull to add +2" to charged, Bullgors being +1", getting Cogs down as well (2 turns to get this off) you'll have +3"/+4" charges on a few units. Ambush 1 DB some G's to turn 1 turn 2 charge very easily.

Or.. Don't take Greatfrays and go Rampant Juggernaunt and just run up the table turn 1 and hope for long charges, (+1 with re-rolls for Bulls) also Ghorgons gets the RR too,, now you have any 2 relics you want as well,  Herdstone Shard is really good (MW's on a 5 or 6) tho it is only 6" aura, but you have Ghystrike (+1 to hit and to wound) Thermalrider cloask (+4" and fly) etc..

Gavespawn is still good as well if you wanted a couple 9 man units.

[Maddpainting]

6 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Can anyone list the actual changes to All the Tzaangor stuff as far as OUR book is concerned ?

What exactly changed ?

Tzaangors (all) lost Daemon keyword
Tzaangor Shaman on 150pts
Tzaangor Enlighten on Disk 180pts
Tzaangors no horde discount

Warscrolls stayed the same but Daemon keyword removed (From the blurry pics i saw, it seems all wording for rules are the same, but i might have overlooked something), and Tzaangor on and off disks are 2 different warscrolls now.


PS here are the points for Endless spells.

-Sigil 40
-Tome 40
-Simulacrum 50

Edited January 4, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Myrdin]

Sigh.... I didnt even get to use mine that much and now they cost more than is affordable. 180 for enlightened.... jesus, we are back where we started several years ago....

Do we HAVE to use the DoT warscrolls ? I mean how do the rules specify this ? If I am a BoC player, do they expect me to buy the fckn DoT battletome ?

They are slowly gutting this army. And I like it not a tiny little bit.

I think I am gonna shelve it again. It was fun while it lasted but the power creep all around us and no actual love for beastmen (WHERE ARE THE NEW CENTIGORS ?! hell even chaos warriors got reworked due to old sculpts meanwhile we got shafted hard) is turning me off from this army. Guess I`ll keep working on my CoS in the meantine, no point investing more money into BoC when this army is getting worse with each passing month, and that is literally killing my enjoyment of playing them.

Sorry for the negativity, but this is like the 3rd time I`ve seen this happen to Beastmen, the army I like the most, and its starting to wear me down. Its like this army cant catch a break, get a solid book thats really powerful, enough for it to stay that way even with the meta power creep happening, and get at least some love in the form of new models or anything really. I mean what did we get ? 3 spells and a giant rock, which most people had already converted their own by this point anyway...

No, stop, enough. I am getting spiteful here. Please ignore me venting my frustration.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Myrdin

[Maddpainting]

Yeah we have to use them, i hope they update/faq that we can be our own, but doubtful.

[PONCHOGRANDE]

While I have plenty of complaints about GW’s business model, this isn’t one of them.  The updated warscrolls are available online for free (or at least they will be).  Tedious? Certainly. But I think it’s a fair trade for accessing units we otherwise wouldn’t.

On the other hand, I can’t say I’m thrilled at the overall  lack of support BoC have gotten from GW. We certainly deserved some deeper cuts on many of our units during the last round of point changes. 

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

It's sadly par for the course for beastmen. GW doesn't really seem to bring their A-game for what they seem to consider the Chaff of Chaos faction.

I think Josh Reynolds lampshades it pretty well in "The Black Pyramid", where the beastlord Ghosteater expresses frustration over how the beastmen are insignificant in the eyes of human worshippers of Chaos and even the gods themselves.

[SevenXes]

Just wanted to say Hi from a new BoC-Player.

So far I've been a FEC-Player and they're still my main army but since I fell in love with the BoC months ago I decided to get them as my second army. I've already painted the first Bestigors and I'm really looking forward to see how they do in field. 

 

 

[Maddpainting]

I never ally normally, so forgive me if it is odd question.

The Gaunt Summoner now has a StD keyword now, so can we ally it in even tho its in the DoT battletome?

B.c if we can, we can take 1 and summon some Horrors for a horde, thats up to 50 wounds to summon and 2 casts for 240pts.



To add we can just ally in the Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch from the StD book.

Do you think that is a good idea to get a free 200pts of 50 wounds?

Also how would you convert them to be more Beastmen like?

Edited January 6, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Forehead]

3 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

I never ally normally, so forgive me if it is odd question.

The Gaunt Summoner now has a StD keyword now, so can we ally it in even tho its in the DoT battletome?

B.c if we can, we can take 1 and summon some Horrors for a horde, thats up to 50 wounds to summon and 2 casts for 240pts.



To add we can just ally in the Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch from the StD book.

Do you think that is a good idea to get a free 200pts of 50 wounds?

Also how would you convert them to be more Beastmen like?

I've just looked at the app for the warscrolls and when the pink horrors die they either cause MW on a 6 or you get blue horror points, similarly for the blue when they die.

My understanding is that with the beasts allegiance these points would be useless to us so its just the MW that we could utilise.

[Arzalyn]

9 minutes ago, Forehead said:

I've just looked at the app for the warscrolls and when the pink horrors die they either cause MW on a 6 or you get blue horror points, similarly for the blue when they die.

My understanding is that with the beasts allegiance these points would be useless to us so its just the MW that we could utilise.

The horrors warscrolls changed and the app isn't actualized with the new warscrolls yet. They don't generate points anymore, simple summons 2 blues

[Maddpainting]

Yep, they now just split into 2 blues instantly, you must pull 1 pink off and put 2 blues, its 1 by 1 now until all pinks are dead then you start on blues, etc.. for brims.

If you are not 100% surrounded and base to base (which will be never) you'll be able to get out all 50 models easily.

A gaunt summoner on Disk is 260pts, that'll summon up to 50 wounds, 50 Ungors (40man and a  10 man) is 260pts, so its equal points to just gain a caster with 2 spells, and the horrors can cast too, also they can get a +1 to hit ability, or cast Bolt/Shield, they are +1 to cast when near a Tzeentch Wizard.

[decker_cky]

7 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

To add we can just ally in the Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch from the StD book.

Yes. Beastmen can ally either gaunt summoner, but you likely want the foot version since it has the ARCANITE keyword, which boosts tzaangors. 

One new change to the tzaangor warscrollsthat may or may not matter is that  summoning abilities (such as the tzaangor shaman spell), now summon a TZAANGOR model (it used to summon a "Tzaangor model").  Its unclear whether the keywords on the enlightened ("TZAANGOR ENLIGHTENED") and skyfires ("TZAANGOR SKYFIRE") apply to allow you to summon onto the elites. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by decker_cky

[Derptau]

On 11/13/2019 at 12:19 PM, ColsBols said:

I third this request >_> I bought what I thought were  old metal centigor models off ebay for cheap, thought I had scored a huge deal only to discover they were gor toros glued to the bottom of plastic farm animals

bit on the small side

Sorry, I giggled at that one. 

[Derptau]

23 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

I never ally normally, so forgive me if it is odd question.

The Gaunt Summoner now has a StD keyword now, so can we ally it in even tho its in the DoT battletome?

B.c if we can, we can take 1 and summon some Horrors for a horde, thats up to 50 wounds to summon and 2 casts for 240pts.



To add we can just ally in the Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch from the StD book.

Do you think that is a good idea to get a free 200pts of 50 wounds?

Also how would you convert them to be more Beastmen like?

This is totally a viable option, I’ll be trying it out in the near future for sure. Even though the Horrors are going to be the go to I can see its utility in summoning letters Or bearers as well. But yeah, horrors are probably what I’d use.

 

for conversions I’d look no further than the skills box. Just cut off a bit on their noggin and slap one on.

 

[Popisdead]

On 1/4/2020 at 12:41 PM, Fazhak said:

 

What do you think?

 

I love it.  I've been debating 2x3 vs 1x6 for the extra MWs but after seeing 6-man Bullgors in play I think they are the way to go...

[Death1942]

Tempted by a beasts of chaos army atm.  How are bullgors these days?  Viable to have some nice big units of them running around?

Not overly amazed by the battleline options but love the look of big beefy monsters running around beating things up with giant axes.

[decker_cky]

I'm tempted to try something in the new tzeentch allegiance including a big block of Bullgors. The agendas make it simple to really ramp the unit with benefits:

+1 attack on the charge for completing a 9+ inch charge....easy to guarantee with fate dice

+1 to hit for destroying a unit of 9+ models

+1 save for destroying a hero or monster with 9+ wounds

There's also the fatemaster, which super fast, cheap, and can give a reroll to hit bubble to make up for the minotaurs' big weakness, and the blue Scribes to give rerolls to cast to our bray shaman and grashrak.

 

edit: Something like this, in guild of summoners or hosts arcanum.

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Doombull (100)
Grashrak Fellhoof (140)
Great-Bray Shaman (100)
Fatemaster (120)
The Blue Scribes (140) (minus 20 in new book)

Battleline
40 x Ungors (200)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields

Units
5 x Grashrak's Despoilers (0)
9 x Bullgors (420)
- Pairs of Axes
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)

Behemoths
Ghorgon (160)

Battalions
Phantasmagoria of Fate (200)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Wildfire Taurus (80)

Total: 2020 / 2000 (minus 20 for cheaper blue scribes)
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 164
 

Edited January 8, 2020 by decker_cky