AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Maddpainting]

To add, what is NOT fine, is the Jabberscythe, 160pts for a cockatrice stated body with his ability only working on a double turn, sure he is slightly more survivable with 5+ vs a 6+ and 2 more wounds, not worth 60pts at all, he is 60% more costly, but only has 36% more toughness, so does his ability and damage make up for that? lets see;

Range weapons compare:
Jabberscythe range weapon is less likely to do something (43% chance to hit and wound, then its only -1rend with only D3) its something like a 25% chance to do 2D to a 5+ save unit.
Cockatrice, straight 50/50 roll for D6 damage, 50% chance to deal equal damage to the Jabber, 25% chance to do less or more (rounding).

Melee weapons compare:
Cockatrice is (A2/4+/3+/-1/D3) Jabber is (A1/4+/3+/-1/D3) so the main melee is better on the cockatrice but the secondary weapon the Jabber is better (A6/3+/3+/-2/1D) vs (A4(A8)4+/4+/-/1D)
Jabberscythe total damage to a 5+ sv unit is 3.2
Cockatrice on the charge damage 5+ is 2.9
So the damage is only off about 0.3, very meaningless.

Abilities:
Jabberscythe, in melee each wound on a 4+ in melee deals 1 MW, 10 wounds, 10 rolls of a 4+ = 5 MW's, without healing this is a 1 time event, most likely will die in 1 round of combat.
Jabberscythes Aura, only works on your turn, must be within 6", must roll a 6 on a dice, chances to happen, less than 10% (Needs to be close, needs to not be attack, or needs to have a double turn while already close, then need a 16.7% dice roll).

Over all the Jabberscythe is meant to get IN THEIR FACE for everything to work, while being 160pts low attacks, low hits, low chance of ability to work, will be MW/shot first given the opportunity b.c of the 4+ in melee to deal MW's. While the Cockatrice can sit at range for a few turns or harass weak units, filling the same roll but cheaper.

Now looking at high value numbers due to the cost differences, 2 Jabbers vs 3 ******, the 3 ****** will out preform the 2 Jabbers every game, 3 chances of D6 MW's and together its the same survivability (24 wounds of 6+ vs 20 wounds of 5+).


I have already propose a change to the Jabber, one i really hope GW gets behinds.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Great Bray Tom]

3 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

To add, what is NOT fine, is the Jabberscythe, 160pts for a cockatrice stated body with his ability only working on a double turn, sure he is slightly more survivable with 5+ vs a 6+ and 2 more wounds, not worth 60pts at all, he is 60% more costly, but only has 36% more toughness, so does his ability and damage make up for that? lets see;

Range weapons compare:
Jabberscythe range weapon is less likely to do something (43% chance to hit and wound, then its only -1rend with only D3) its something like a 25% chance to do 2D to a 5+ save unit.
Cockatrice, straight 50/50 roll for D6 damage, 50% chance to deal equal damage to the Jabber, 25% chance to do less or more (rounding).

Melee weapons compare:
Cockatrice is (A2/4+/3+/-1/D3) Jabber is (A1/4+/3+/-1/D3) so the main melee is better on the cockatrice but the secondary weapon the Jabber is better (A6/3+/3+/-2/1D) vs (A4(A8)4+/4+/-/1D)
Jabberscythe total damage to a 5+ sv unit is 3.2
Cockatrice on the charge damage 5+ is 2.9
So the damage is only off about 0.3, very meaningless.

Abilities:
Jabberscythe, in melee each wound on a 4+ in melee deals 1 MW, 10 wounds, 10 rolls of a 4+ = 5 MW's, without healing this is a 1 time event, most likely will die in 1 round of combat.
Jabberscythes Aura, only works on your turn, must be within 6", must roll a 6 on a dice, chances to happen, less than 10% (Needs to be close, needs to not be attack, or needs to have a double turn while already close, then need a 16.7% dice roll).

Over all the Jabberscythe is meant to get IN THEIR FACE for everything to work, while being 160pts low attacks, low hits, low chance of ability to work, will be MW/shot first given the opportunity b.c of the 4+ in melee to deal MW's. While the Cockatrice can sit at range for a few turns or harass weak units, filling the same roll but cheaper.

Now looking at high value numbers due to the cost differences, 2 Jabbers vs 3 ******, the 3 ****** will out preform the 2 Jabbers every game, 3 chances of D6 MW's and together its the same survivability (24 wounds of 6+ vs 20 wounds of 5+).


I have already purpose a change to the Jabber, one i really hope GW gets behinds.

Jabberslythe is 140 points though. I have played with both multiple times and personally the Jabber did more for me. Sometimes the Cockatrice is nice to summon in and snipe the last wounds of a backline hero.

[Great Bray Tom]

6 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

To add, what is NOT fine, is the Jabberscythe, 160pts for a cockatrice stated body with his ability only working on a double turn, sure he is slightly more survivable with 5+ vs a 6+ and 2 more wounds, not worth 60pts at all, he is 60% more costly, but only has 36% more toughness, so does his ability and damage make up for that? lets see;

Range weapons compare:
Jabberscythe range weapon is less likely to do something (43% chance to hit and wound, then its only -1rend with only D3) its something like a 25% chance to do 2D to a 5+ save unit.
Cockatrice, straight 50/50 roll for D6 damage, 50% chance to deal equal damage to the Jabber, 25% chance to do less or more (rounding).

Melee weapons compare:
Cockatrice is (A2/4+/3+/-1/D3) Jabber is (A1/4+/3+/-1/D3) so the main melee is better on the cockatrice but the secondary weapon the Jabber is better (A6/3+/3+/-2/1D) vs (A4(A8)4+/4+/-/1D)
Jabberscythe total damage to a 5+ sv unit is 3.2
Cockatrice on the charge damage 5+ is 2.9
So the damage is only off about 0.3, very meaningless.

Abilities:
Jabberscythe, in melee each wound on a 4+ in melee deals 1 MW, 10 wounds, 10 rolls of a 4+ = 5 MW's, without healing this is a 1 time event, most likely will die in 1 round of combat.
Jabberscythes Aura, only works on your turn, must be within 6", must roll a 6 on a dice, chances to happen, less than 10% (Needs to be close, needs to not be attack, or needs to have a double turn while already close, then need a 16.7% dice roll).

Over all the Jabberscythe is meant to get IN THEIR FACE for everything to work, while being 160pts low attacks, low hits, low chance of ability to work, will be MW/shot first given the opportunity b.c of the 4+ in melee to deal MW's. While the Cockatrice can sit at range for a few turns or harass weak units, filling the same roll but cheaper.

Now looking at high value numbers due to the cost differences, 2 Jabbers vs 3 ******, the 3 ****** will out preform the 2 Jabbers every game, 3 chances of D6 MW's and together its the same survivability (24 wounds of 6+ vs 20 wounds of 5+).


I have already propose a change to the Jabber, one i really hope GW gets behinds.

Oh and it’s not 10 MW max. He does MW for every wound ALLOCATED to him, so if he was to receive 15 mortal wounds I believe he would do 15d4+ mortal wounds back.

[Maddpainting]

No, he is 160pts. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/5335ef41.pdf

And i forgot, i never said my idea to change him,

Mark of Madness (or Hex by Madness)
At the end of your movement phase Once per game, pick up to 3 units within 12" of the Jabberslythe, roll 1D6, on a 3+ put a Madness token on that unit. Whenever a unit with a madness token on them attempts to Cast or unbind a spell, move, attack, or charge, roll a dice for each attempt, on a 6+ that unit cannot attempt that action, for each additional Madness token on the unit add +1 to the roll (to a minimum of 4+). These tokens last until the end of your opponents next turn.


 

Quote

Oh and it’s not 10 MW max. He does MW for every wound ALLOCATED to him, so if he was to receive 15 mortal wounds I believe he would do 15d4+ mortal wounds back.

While turn, as i forgot about that. Most players are going to just MW him out with spells, priest abilities, endless spells, or shoot him, at least to a point that meleeing him with a small unit is easy. Him also having only a 5+ with 10 wounds means cheap throw away units can also still kill him. Who cares if 10 clan rats dies, or some cultist, Marauders, etc.. thats why they are there.

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Great Bray Tom]

6 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

No, he is 160pts. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/5335ef41.pdf

And i forgot, i never said my idea to change him,

Mark of Madness (or Hex by Madness)
At the end of your movement phase Once per game, pick up to 3 units within 12" of the Jabberslythe, roll 1D6, on a 3+ put a Madness token on that unit. Whenever a unit with a madness token on them attempts to Cast or unbind a spell, move, attack, or charge, roll a dice for each attempt, on a 6+ that unit cannot attempt that action, for each additional Madness token on the unit add +1 to the roll (to a minimum of 4+). These tokens last until the end of your opponents next turn.


 

While turn, as i forgot about that. Most players are going to just MW him out with spells, priest abilities, endless spells, or shoot him, at least to a point that meleeing him with a small unit is easy. Him also having only a 5+ with 10 wounds means cheap throw away units can also still kill him. Who cares if 10 clan rats dies, or some cultist, Marauders, etc.. thats why they are there.

 

Strange. He was 140 and there is no * at his name right?

it’s also still 140 in the AoS Azyr app!

[Maddpainting]

He has always been 160, its 160 int he book, in GH, on the Web app, and in the Faq. I dont spend money on the mobile app as there is a free website for the points and i own the books.

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

question  on summoning, is the max points BoC can get a turn 5? (1plus d3 plus command ability)

that seems really weak compared to other armies with summoning. although i suppose its on par with nurgle

i dont have the book so im unsure if dark ritual is once per turn or once per hero 

[decker_cky]

Its not great, but its much better than nurgle. 

[Maddpainting]

4 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

question  on summoning, is the max points BoC can get a turn 5? (1plus d3 plus command ability)

that seems really weak compared to other armies with summoning. although i suppose its on par with nurgle

i dont have the book so im unsure if dark ritual is once per turn or once per hero 

No, you can get more if you get more CP. Buy 1 CP, 1 CP for each Battalion, CP for abilities/artefacts's, 1 for the start of the turn.
Without Aether broche, you can easily get 3CP turn 1, for 4+D3 turn 1, add in that artefact and each CP gives you 1 more back on a 5+.

Also BoC summoning is more of a utility tool and fluffy it fits us, not all armies should be summoning armies, or use summoning to be powerful, yes are is weaker than some others but we don't need to do. 
 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Myrdin]

Jabberslythe has been hit hard by the nerf bat when BoC book came out. No point in lamenting that anymore. Enough tears have been shed. I always wanted to run 2 simply because I love that bloody stupidly named thing. I converted my own from the FailCast jabber, tyranid bits and completely different wings. Was always looking forward doing a second one but.... hell the one I have under-performs no matter what role I put him so badly I just couldn't justify putting enough energy and resources into such a project when I have bunch of other ones, actually useful in game once done going on. 

With all the negatives you described and the fact it has only Damage 1 weapon, I eventually even phased out the one I was playing at that time out of my lists.

And with 160pts Gorghon I dont see him returning anytime soon.

Jabber needs to either have its damage buffed, or his abilities buffed. That requires a Warscroll rework regardless, so the best he could get was a price drop to around 130-ish range. It didnt happen. 

Only thing addressed in our book was the Warherd, leaving Shaggoths, Tzaan Shaman, Skyfires,  FCKNG WARHOUNDS and Gargants still way to pricey for what they bring to the table. (All of those I named could easily take a -20pts drop without anyone really batting an eye or question such a decision.)

Sidenote: The new STD Marauders put Gors and Centigors to shame. So even those could possibly justify a small 10 pts points drop.

Honestly the meta has shifted so much with the insane power creep GW performed in the last few releases that with how the warscroll are done, bunch of our stuff now feels incredibly overpriced.

 

[Great Bray Tom]

So I have a tournament end of february. This is currently the armylist I've been most succesful with. 

 

The goal is to get more Tzaangor Enlightened (2 more units) and put them in instead of the command point and 6 Dragon Ogors. The Shaggoth will then become a Tzaangor Shaman or Great-Bray + command point. I love the Ogors but for a tournament scene I think the Enlightened will do more (ofcourse depending on changes from the new Tzeentch battletome).

Currently this is it:

Beasts of Chaos
Gavespawn
Brass Despoilers

1 Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (General), Unravelling aura, sundering blades
1 Doombull
1 Great Bray-Shaman (Aetherquartsz Brooch and Tendrils of Atrophy)
1 Beastlord (Mutating Gnarlblade)

30 Gors, axe & shields
40 Ungors, Ungor blade
6 Dragon Ogor (3x Paired ancient weapon, 3x Draconic War-Glaive)

3 Tzaangor Enlightened
1 Chaos Spawn
10 Centigors
10 Bestigors
10 Bestigors

+1 command point

2000/2000, 3 command points to start.

Any comments or tips? Like I said; the ideal list would probably take out all the Dragon Ogors (cleaning up 460 points) and adding 6 Tzaangor Enlightened and a Bray Shaman (420 points). Maybe try an endless spell for the remainder 40.

[Skreech Verminking]

There might be something for us beasts user with the article that just came out:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/03/rules-preview-disciples-of-tzeentch-endless-spellsgw-homepage-post-3/

 

looks like we get a small buff with the upcoming book.😁😉

[Forehead]

Would these be available to bray shaman as part of a phantasmagoria battalion?

[Beliman]

IMO, yes.
It seems that all Wizzards with the Tzeentch Keyword/ Mark can cast that spells.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Beliman

[Maddpainting]

The wording seems to say yes, but then the example seems to imply Tzaangors. Will have to see the actual rule for it to see.

"These endless spells can be used by any Tzeentch Wizard, which means that they’re also available to Tzeentch-marked Slaves to Darkness Wizards as well as Tzaangor Shamans in Beasts of Chaos armies. So, if you collect these forces, read on – this matters for you, too!"

 

But no matter what we will be able to cast them! And that first one is amazing for us!
 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Forehead]

Thanks, this looks like a promising addition for us then depending on their points cost.

[decker_cky]

5 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Only thing addressed in our book was the Warherd, leaving Shaggoths, Tzaan Shaman, Skyfires,  FCKNG WARHOUNDS and Gargants still way to pricey for what they bring to the table. (All of those I named could easily take a -20pts drop without anyone really batting an eye or question such a decision.)

I don't think Shaggoths or Tzaangor Shamans are too bad - they're not cheap, but they're useful. 

Let's see how the book spoilers go - our tzaangors, tzaangor shamans, enlightened and skyfires may be addressed in the tzeentch book (I'll be shocked if tzaangors aren't simplified like plague monks and ardboyz). 

One interesting thing in the changed meta is beasts of chaos' easy access to huge rend. With rerollable 3+ and 4+ saves all over the place, being able to ramp up to rend 2 or 3 is a huge damage increase.

[Maddpainting]

A lot of people don't understand BoC can have a lot of rend, now with Doombulls being 100pts, the Herdstone, the spell, a couple relics, we can easiy get a lot of -2 rend.

Also Tzaangor shamans on disks are just fine for the points, a Shaggoth would be nice if it came down 20pts at least. But honestly, they are not bad, its just that DO's are bad so there is no reason to take it, if DO got cheaper, then taking one would make since. he can cast, buff a unit, and melee, so it should be a little more costly.

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

If we are able to cast tzeentch spells, then the flesh changing one might be particularly cool in a GAVESPAWN list. It’s description makes it sound like it makes spawn or tzaangors, spawn could be cool for having more places to buff troops

[Murder Pancake]

Tzaangor warscrolls have changed to require the wounds to be allocated to the shield bearing models first. 

[thebloody9]

17 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

If we are able to cast tzeentch spells, then the flesh changing one might be particularly cool in a GAVESPAWN list. It’s description makes it sound like it makes spawn or tzaangors, spawn could be cool for having more places to buff troops

The Tzeentch spells that produce spawn all produce TZEENTCH CHAOS SPAWN whilst the Gavespawn command ability requires GAVESPAWN CHAOS SPAWN to activate.

Edited January 4, 2020 by thebloody9

[Maddpainting]

3 hours ago, thebloody9 said:

The Tzeentch spells that produce spawn all produce TZEENTCH CHAOS SPAWN whilst the Gavespawn command ability requires GAVESPAWN CHAOS SPAWN to activate.

Doesn't matter, all units added to an army with a greatfray gets that greatfray keyword, and spawns added gets Gavespawn keyword.

[ColsBols]

Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc up to 180 points, kill me

Shaman down to 150

[Maddpainting]

Is that for DoT or for both?

 

[Derptau]

5 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Is that for DoT or for both?

 

It would be for both. The points and Warscrolls are shared.

 

Shaman going down is nice, but WTF enlightened? 

Did we see any changes to Skyfires or Enlightened actual rules?