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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Legion Of Azgorh Discussion

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Hi Guys!

 

So part of me is considering picking up the forgeworld blackshard warhost since it's quite a nice savings and using them either as allies to my everchosen for some cool looking bodies to grab objectives and because COOL GUNS! Or to use within grand alliance chaos to march alongside my other chaotic goons. Their units seem fairly nice for their points cost but I was wondering what people think of them alongside other chaos armies, can they pull their own weight in a more casual / casual-competitive setting or do they rely too much on their allegiance abilities? I'm trying to get a general idea of all the forgeworld chaos stuff to see what would make nice little slot-ins to my mixed forces  :) so any help would be appreciated.

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What do you think of the following meeting encounter list? the idea would be to move the  tauruk sperehad towards the center and then on turn 2 use them with the double command hability to break the opponent sperhead, then the main body should come to give fire support to the tauruks.

 

SPEARHEAD

Goth, the immortal (160) Bull Centaur Taur'ruk - General - Command Trait : Grotesque - Artefact : Armour of Bazherak the Cruel

3 x Bull Centaur Renders (180)

3 x Bull Centaur Renders (180)

MAIN BODY

lysh, the servant (100) Daemonsmith - Darkforged Weapon

10 x Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

Iron Daemon War Engine (180)

REARGUARD

10 x Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

TOTAL: 1000/1

 

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3 hours ago, sadon said:

What do you think of the following meeting encounter list? the idea would be to move the  tauruk sperehad towards the center and then on turn 2 use them with the double command hability to break the opponent sperhead, then the main body should come to give fire support to the tauruks.

 

SPEARHEAD

Goth, the immortal (160) Bull Centaur Taur'ruk - General - Command Trait : Grotesque - Artefact : Armour of Bazherak the Cruel

3 x Bull Centaur Renders (180)

3 x Bull Centaur Renders (180)

MAIN BODY

lysh, the servant (100) Daemonsmith - Darkforged Weapon

10 x Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

Iron Daemon War Engine (180)

REARGUARD

10 x Infernal Guard Fireglaives (100)

TOTAL: 1000/1

 

Only problem you may find is that my first Meeting Engagements game the other day had one of the players bringing their army on in reverse order which screwed me over.  I think you definitely need fast stuff (which you've got) or ways to move models quicker. It may only be the one battleplan that does that though (I haven't checked them all).

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Skullcracker and allies were added back in the FAQ:

 

Skullcracker War Engine | Unit Size Min: 1 | Unit Size Max: 1 | Points: 200 | Battlefield Role: Behemoth

ALLIES Chaos Gargant, Everchosen, Khorne, Monsters of Chaos, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Slaves to Darkness, Tzeentch

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HOOOORRAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!  Time to make a third :D

And a fourth magma cannon too.

Edited by Lord Krungharr
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Skullcracker is back but this is confirms that we're stuck with those point costs for a year. FFS, even the devoted to Sigmar received some cost reductions. Most armies getting updates indirectly nerf the armies that didn't.

I guess I'll use them now and then for casual games but they're really not good enough if you want to play in a tournament.

Edited by spenson

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I'll have to disagree about the Skullcrackers, they dominated every game I have used them in.  They do bracket but are plenty fast enough to get in there and mulch things.  Used in conjunction with a Castellan wearing the Thermalrider Cloak, they are my favorite!

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Hooray! 
Close shave for the ol' skullcracker.

It would have been rough to lose one of our top (or the top) melee units we have.

@spenson  i see what you're saying, but I have to disagree with you on some of the points. There's a lot of armies that are 'top tier!' and can do well easily, We've seen (in this board even) the Legion do well in tournaments. Point reductions would yhave been nice, sure. There are some that had hikes (FEC/ Daughters etc) and even stayed the same too (destruction).  
Legion still brings some of the best shooting and reliably punchy units for a darn good price.


Time to assemble the Skull cracker!

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Azgorh are a great army. They really do have a little bit of everything and a lot of unique stuff too.  Can certainly compete at the higher levels with good play.

With the allies revealed, what do people plan on taking?

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My biggest issues with the army are that the battalions are meh at best so we usually won't decide the first turn. This can have a lot of impact on the game for a kinda shooty army.

We don't have any teleportation or an easy way to travel accross the table in 1/2 turns (except for an overcosted character).  If you play a timed game and can only do around 3 turns, you'll have a hard time capturing the objectives if your opponent played first and moved his screens half way across the table turn 1.

We are also not good at dealing with MW. We basically only have Drazoath (in close combat) and an artefact that may negate MW.

The fireborns are pretty nice with fliy and run+charge but they will struggle against anything that has a moderately good armor and they get destroyed by hordes with their poor save. You have to be really careful when you use them.

The centaurs deal a respectable amount of damage but they are overcosted when you compare them with what other armies can do.

We have almost no way to make our magic more reliable. Sometimes your wizards will be useless because they will fail to cast, will be dispelled or your opponent will have some nice bonus to cast their spells.

I have to admit that our warmachines are pretty good but random (last game I played, my magma cannons either did nothing or the MW were almost all saved during the first 2 turns). The problem with shooting is that right now there are so many way to make it useless (teleport/summon/deepstrike/etc and then charge, idoneth buff, sylvaneth forest, etc.). you need to invest a lot of ressources to make your shooting units worth the points; ressources that aren't used to play the scenario.

Finally, we only have 2 sources of rerolls in the whole army. The first one is Shar'Tor but can only be used on ba'hal units. The second one is the standard bearer that only gives rerolls of 1's to wound wholly within 18". The bravery bonus is nice because we really have a poor bravery despite being dwarves.

Being polyvalent is nice but what we can do well isn't that interesting in the context of most scenarios.

I've played quite a few games against hard tournament lists and sometimes there really isn't much that we can do.

I know I'm not being totally objective right now but I have a lot more difficulties winning with my LoA than when I play a higher tier army (Slaanesh, DoK or Legion of sacrament).

Edited by spenson

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4 hours ago, spenson said:

My biggest issues with the army are that the battalions are meh at best so we usually won't decide the first turn. This can have a lot of impact on the game for a kinda shooty army.

We don't have any teleportation or an easy way to travel accross the table in 1/2 turns (except for an overcosted character).  If you play a timed game and can only do around 3 turns, you'll have a hard time capturing the objectives if your opponent played first and moved his screens half way across the table turn 1.

We are also not good at dealing with MW. We basically only have Drazoath (in close combat) and an artefact that may negate MW.

The fireborns are pretty nice with fliy and run+charge but they will struggle against anything that has a moderately good armor and they get destroyed by hordes with their poor save. You have to be really careful when you use them.

The centaurs deal a respectable amount of damage but they are overcosted when you compare them with what other armies can do.

We have almost no way to make our magic more reliable. Sometimes your wizards will be useless because they will fail to cast, will be dispelled or your opponent will have some nice bonus to cast their spells.

I have to admit that our warmachines are pretty good but random (last game I played, my magma cannons either did nothing or the MW were almost all saved during the first 2 turns). The problem with shooting is that right now there are so many way to make it useless (teleport/summon/deepstrike/etc and then charge, idoneth buff, sylvaneth forest, etc.). you need to invest a lot of ressources to make your shooting units worth the points; ressources that aren't used to play the scenario.

Finally, we only have 2 sources of rerolls in the whole army. The first one is Shar'Tor but can only be used on ba'hal units. The second one is the standard bearer that only gives rerolls of 1's to wound wholly within 18". The bravery bonus is nice because we really have a poor bravery despite being dwarves.

Being polyvalent is nice but what we can do well isn't that interesting in the context of most scenarios.

I've played quite a few games against hard tournament lists and sometimes there really isn't much that we can do.

I know I'm not being totally objective right now but I have a lot more difficulties winning with my LoA than when I play a higher tier army (Slaanesh, DoK or Legion of sacrament).

To address a few of your issues:

The new Volley Of Shot command ability is sweet for Fireglaives and makes our shooting more reliable.

Bring a Chaos Sorcerer Lord to buff your K'daai and suddenly they are a lot more powerful and less prone to failing saves. They also have the mvt necessary to secure objectives quickly and Kiss Of Fire means your opponent will be shy about getting too close to them.

Don't forget the Castellan's command ability, that +1 to wound is helpful.

I agree the battalions are kinda meh. The artillery one is the only one I might take with consistency. 

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- The new volley of shot can reroll hits of 1 for every shooting unit. Fireglaives got it already in their warscroll (when they stand still)

- There is also the melee command ability with rerolling hits of 1 in combat phase and the rerolls for our blackshard battalion (still helps a bit)

- Chaos Sorc buffing a big unit of 12 kdaai or 6 render and you've got a great smashing unit. Those just got charged by olynda, 30 chainrasp and 5 hexwraiths. They took 2 losses from the chainrasp and overkilled olynda and the hexwraith return. The next combat phase they finished those 30 chainrasp easily and continued destroying my opponents army from one flank through the other. In the end ive got even 5-6 left (and 2 fled to battleshock..) 

-Others like Gutrot Spune + Blightkings for "fast movement". I bet there are some more allies which we can benefit from 

- we do ignore the first wound in each melee and range unit (which can be also MW?)

-i like all 3 of our battalions. Ofc the artillery (btw can you take the same battalion twice?) one is the best, but i see uses for the blackshard too. The bullcentaur one is kinda cool for meeting engangements 

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5 hours ago, spenson said:

 

I know I'm not being totally objective right now but I have a lot more difficulties winning with my LoA than when I play a higher tier army (Slaanesh, DoK or Legion of sacrament).

When you stack most any armies vs those power houses (most of listed armies  just got hefty adjustments ) the vast majority of AOS armies suffer. The Legion probably fares better than most non-power game/lists. 

Subjectively, its pretty unfair to stack most armies vs. those  and a few other game breakers (ie old Skryer)

Time and time again, we see odd/ off beat lists take first in GT/RTs. Not every time, but quite often. Well played lists can beat the power lists, its an uphill battle, but it can be done.

We've all fought against a power list (FEC, etc) at mid tables and wondered "Why am I playing this?" They got beat, and are pushed off top tables and forced to play my nurgle scrubs.

LoA has amazing options, some are less than optimal, but nearly everything can be played. It may not go 5-0, but it can do well. 

 

Enjoy!

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37 minutes ago, Charly2912 said:

- The new volley of shot can reroll hits of 1 for every shooting unit. Fireglaives got it already in their warscroll (when they stand still)

- There is also the melee command ability with rerolling hits of 1 in combat phase and the rerolls for our blackshard battalion (still helps a bit)

- Chaos Sorc buffing a big unit of 12 kdaai or 6 render and you've got a great smashing unit. Those just got charged by olynda, 30 chainrasp and 5 hexwraiths. They took 2 losses from the chainrasp and overkilled olynda and the hexwraith return. The next combat phase they finished those 30 chainrasp easily and continued destroying my opponents army from one flank through the other. In the end ive got even 5-6 left (and 2 fled to battleshock..) 

-Others like Gutrot Spune + Blightkings for "fast movement". I bet there are some more allies which we can benefit from 

- we do ignore the first wound in each melee and range unit (which can be also MW?)

-i like all 3 of our battalions. Ofc the artillery (btw can you take the same battalion twice?) one is the best, but i see uses for the blackshard too. The bullcentaur one is kinda cool for meeting engangements 

Sure, but you don't have to stand still now ;)

 

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2 hours ago, Charly2912 said:

- The new volley of shot can reroll hits of 1 for every shooting unit. Fireglaives got it already in their warscroll (when they stand still)

- There is also the melee command ability with rerolling hits of 1 in combat phase and the rerolls for our blackshard battalion (still helps a bit)

- Chaos Sorc buffing a big unit of 12 kdaai or 6 render and you've got a great smashing unit. Those just got charged by olynda, 30 chainrasp and 5 hexwraiths. They took 2 losses from the chainrasp and overkilled olynda and the hexwraith return. The next combat phase they finished those 30 chainrasp easily and continued destroying my opponents army from one flank through the other. In the end ive got even 5-6 left (and 2 fled to battleshock..) 

-Others like Gutrot Spune + Blightkings for "fast movement". I bet there are some more allies which we can benefit from 

- we do ignore the first wound in each melee and range unit (which can be also MW?)

-i like all 3 of our battalions. Ofc the artillery (btw can you take the same battalion twice?) one is the best, but i see uses for the blackshard too. The bullcentaur one is kinda cool for meeting engangements 

We don't have any way of generating CP and the battalions are a bit meh so you'll usually have to save them for emergencies unless you buy them. Fireglaives are nice but if you're within 16" at the beginning of the turn, you better make sure that everything dies

The blackshard battalion is awful because you don't get the bonus if you pile in during combat phase. It also requires you to play a castellan and I'm not a fan of his rules. The artillery train is not that bad, but it forces you to play a daemon engine (I'd rather play a skullcraker) and it basically costs as much as an additional war machine. The centaur one is tricky and I had a hard time making it work against opponents who know it.

A chaos sorcerer makes our units noticably stronger but it doesn't address the (relatively) slow movement+lack of flight of the centaurs.  Giving some rend or a slightly better save to the fireborn would make them way better than rerolling 1's. I'm not a fan of your example because your opponent evidently made a mistake.

Sure we can use allies to compensate for our lack of mobility and we can take basically everyone except the skaven.  I think Kairos may be a good ally idea.

We can't cancel MW with our battle trait, only regular wounds. Spells will hurt us and you can't cancel the MW from'More power!'.

To address some other comments: the castellan requires you to be within 12" during the hero phase. This is a huge problem as it is really telegraphed and can be dodge quite easily. IMO it would be an awesome ability if you could use it whenever you want for a phase. He doesn't really bring anything other than that.

Of course I stack the LoA against the best armies since it's what you're going to play against in any tournament. As I said in my first comment, they're ok for casual play. I love this army and I won't stop playing it but it's not good enough for tournament play. If a good player with a lower tier army can win, they'll probably do even better with a stronger army...

 

Edited by spenson

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If you want to generate CP, get a Magewrath Throne on the table and make sure your General is near it.

EDIT: And I disagree that they aren't strong enough for tournament play. I've read tournament battle reports of LoA doing quite well. Especially with K'daai and Magma Cannon heavy builds.

Edited by Televiper11

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I won 3 major victories and 1 minor victory at the Adepticon Championships this year using my Magma heavy Artillery Train, Tauruk, Castellan and Standard Bearer, 2 Skull Crackers and 4x10 Fireglaives.  Beat out Idoneth, Ironjawz, Gloomspite mixed, minor vs another Gloomspite, lost to Beasts of Khorne (dude was playing slow though, and another turn would have made it on the edge).

Sure Azgorh is slower, but bullets make up for lack of speed. 

Sure Azgorh lacks mortal wound protection, but there are so many other armies who also lack it...at least we can dish it out too, from a distance. 

Sure we lack CPs, but we don't need buckets of them, just a couple.  Not sure if the Magewrath Throne is a Matched Play thing?  Maybe a mysterious ally could help with those?

As for the Blackshard Warhost, I don't think piling in counts as a move for the bonus purposes.  Usually rules that count any kinda move as a move, say any kind of movement.  A TO could say for sure but doesn't sound right to count piling in as movement to me for that rule application.

As for the Castellan, I always give him the Thermalrider Cloak to make for his short legs.  Then he can keep up with the choppy units.

 

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17 minutes ago, spenson said:

We don't have any way of generating CP and the battalions are a bit meh so you'll usually have to save them for emergencies unless you buy them. Fireglaives are nice but if you're within 16" at the beginning of the turn, you better make sure that everything dies

The blackshard battalion is awful because you don't get the bonus if you pile in during combat phase. It also requires you to play a castellan and I'm not a fan of his rules. The artillery train is not that bad, but it forces you to play a daemon engine (I'd rather play a skullcraker) and it basically costs as much as an additional war machine. The centaur one is tricky and I had a hard time making it work against opponents who know it.

A chaos sorcerer makes our units noticably stronger but it doesn't address the (relatively) slow movement+lack of flight of the centaurs.  Giving some rend or a slightly better save to the fireborn would make them way better than rerolling 1's. I'm not a fan of your example because your opponent evidently made a mistake.

Sure we can use allies to compensate for our lack of mobility and we can take basically everyone except the skaven.  I think Kairos may be a good idea for example.

We can't cancel MW with our battle trait, only regular wounds.

To address some other comments: the castellan requires you to be within 12" during the hero phase. This is a huge problem as it is really telegraphed and can be dodge quite easily. IMO it would be an awesome ability if you could use it whenever you want for a phase. He doesn't really bring anything other than that.

Of course I stack the LoA against the best armies since it's what you're going to play against in any tournament. As I said in my first comment, they're ok for casual play. I love this army and I won't stop playing it but it's not good enough for tournament play. If a good player with a lower tier army can win, they'll probably do even better with a stronger army...

 

is there an FAQ for Legion of Azgorh? 

I dont quite see why you shouldnt ignore MW (as long as it is the first wound in each combat or shooting phase)

Also why you should lose the bonus from the blackshard as soon you pile

 

I guess you are right about our Command points. Might need some luck in those games with that new triumph and scenery rule for command points :D

And ofc a rend or a better save would be nice, but their save literally cant get better due to their warscroll rerolling ones is at least something. A rend would be awesome but with 60 attacks and 3" reach most of them will get their attacks in and its just about poppin that many saverolls. D3 Damage will do the rest

 

Sure they cant do much about the strongest tournament lists, but they will do more than fine in the casual gaming area 

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The Blackshard Armor Trait only ignores the first regular wound.   In AoS they word rules consistently if things affect wounds and/or mortal wounds.   

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5 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

The Blackshard Armor Trait only ignores the first regular wound.   In AoS they word rules consistently if things affect wounds and/or mortal wounds.   

I'm sure that's not right. 

When it comes to applying wounds to a unit after they have been resolved there is no distinction made between where they came from, therefore this trait doesn't distinguish either. As long as its the first wound to be allocated to that unit in that phase it'll be ignored. 

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A pile-in move counts as a move, it's in the core rules. They differentiate now between moves in the movement phase (Normal Moves), charging (Charge Moves) and pile-in (Pile-In Moves).

All of those are considered as a move for something like the Blackshard Warhost. As a previous Free Peoples player, it mattered there too for things like the Freeguild General's CA.

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4 hours ago, divineauthority said:

A pile-in move counts as a move, it's in the core rules. They differentiate now between moves in the movement phase (Normal Moves), charging (Charge Moves) and pile-in (Pile-In Moves).

All of those are considered as a move for something like the Blackshard Warhost. As a previous Free Peoples player, it mattered there too for things like the Freeguild General's CA.

Does it? Sure this has been answered before and clarified. Movement counts as "standard movement in the movement phase" piling in happens in the combat phase, therefore isn't a move as such. You can't just pile in up the field!

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On 7/9/2019 at 4:08 PM, Lord Krungharr said:

I won 3 major victories and 1 minor victory at the Adepticon Championships this year using my Magma heavy Artillery Train, Tauruk, Castellan and Standard Bearer, 2 Skull Crackers and 4x10 Fireglaives.  Beat out Idoneth, Ironjawz, Gloomspite mixed, minor vs another Gloomspite, lost to Beasts of Khorne (dude was playing slow though, and another turn would have made it on the edge).

Sure Azgorh is slower, but bullets make up for lack of speed. 

Sure Azgorh lacks mortal wound protection, but there are so many other armies who also lack it...at least we can dish it out too, from a distance. 

Sure we lack CPs, but we don't need buckets of them, just a couple.  Not sure if the Magewrath Throne is a Matched Play thing?  Maybe a mysterious ally could help with those?

As for the Blackshard Warhost, I don't think piling in counts as a move for the bonus purposes.  Usually rules that count any kinda move as a move, say any kind of movement.  A TO could say for sure but doesn't sound right to count piling in as movement to me for that rule application.

As for the Castellan, I always give him the Thermalrider Cloak to make for his short legs.  Then he can keep up with the choppy units.

 

I'd like to know more about the Thermalrider on the Castellan. I was gonna give him Chalice Of Blood & Darkness.

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I'd also really like to see some evidence regarding Blackshard Armor negating MWs. I don't think it does as the Armor Of Bazherak The Cruel clearly states it negates both wounds & MWs. The difference in the language leads me to believe that Blackshard does not negate MW.

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