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On 12/11/2019 at 8:23 PM, sal4m4nd3r said:

A

A sigil (endless spell) in this list would be boss and can be slotted right in.  (40 points)

Soul Grinders were 250 previously. A soul grinder with demonic power is a VERY strong piece I think! But the fact that it "requires" a spell to be competetive speaks to the warscroll as you pointed out. Also everything is great with demonic power LOL! In a nurgle army, they can be particularly fun as they can move, run, shoot, and charge in the same turn! +1 to wound on the cycles stage two!

You can't cast Demonic Power on the soul grinder... it is for mortal S2D units only.

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These forums are hard to bear during these pre-release weeks. People act like they are playing against the most competitive players in the world and gripe whine moan and groan over how the newest upda

So I've sat down with the book for a few hours. And my conclusion is, its a dud. The poor spell lore, the low dmg on the combat units resembling anything midly elite. The Elite, Warriors and Knights j

For some reason that makes me think of Boyz II Men. Slavez II Darkness.

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1 hour ago, Charleston said:

That´s the point: The wording sounds like mix and match is allowed right now, as it allows "each [Warrior] armed with one of the following options"

Fair fair yeah didn't read it right i guess my brain filed it away. 

I guess  shields and halbreds would be best. Technically you only need 1 shield, so the others could be great swords or paired hand weapons.

Paired hand weapons are generally always better, but any big bad unit we run will likely get buffed by a chaos sorcerer lord or one of our other sources of rerolls.  Maybe if you run a specifically nurgle getting reroll wound rolls with the nurgle shrine ability and the +1 save. Alternatively you could run undivided warshrine and get reroll hit and wounds that way. I think the great swords are better if getting buffed by sorc or shrine using undivided prayer, as the rend can make a pretty big difference against some units. 

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It is really sad that the ugliest, oldest and most hated miniatures, in a range of wonderful other monsters and even updated ones (knights, warriors, lord...) are -according to consensus here -  the best units of StD book. I am, unfortunately, speaking about -shame on me - the marauders.

PS: I don't want to buy some. I'll try my best without them.

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9 hours ago, TheMuphinMan said:

Would never play this because I'd probably never be able to face the person again but I call this Brannigan's List after the legendary Captain Zap Brannigan

Allegiance: Host of the Everchosen
Plaguetouched Warband (180)
-Archaon the Everchosen (800) general Lore of the Damned: Mask of Darkness
-Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110) Lore of the Damned:?
-Chaos Marauders (150) x4
-Chaos Spawn (50) x2

Daemon Prince of Nurgle 210

2000pt/2000pt

Each turn you send a wave of buffed chaos marauders at the enemy (mask of darkness to teleport 9" away then its only a 1/36 chance to fail charge), and try and tie up as many units as possible. Each 6 to hit against them is d3 mortals back (daemon prince) and each 6 to wound is 1 mortal back (battalion). Every time one dies it can pile in and fight (archaon's command ability).

other options could be replace sorcerer lord for 2 spawns to allow one of the marauder units to go up to 40, or dropping the warband/spawns for more marauders or to add in sayl for an extra teleport attempt,

Going to have to try and fit a harbinger of decay in there... some sweet 5+++ for all mortal nurgle units within 7" he's only 160pts...

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So I've sat down with the book for a few hours. And my conclusion is, its a dud. The poor spell lore, the low dmg on the combat units resembling anything midly elite. The Elite, Warriors and Knights just aren't that tough. 

The best list is probably plague touched in Ravagers or Despoilers, cabalist is a ****** take. I think Khorne probably got the best overall contribution from S2D units. This is the worst Battletome in some time, probably a 2-3 book on average. If ever there was book that should have had high access to rend -2 it would have been S2D. I think the mentioned Plaguetouched might be a high skill 3-2 build at best. I don't expect to see any Chaos Faction on the top tables in the new year.

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2 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Fair fair yeah didn't read it right i guess my brain filed it away. 

I guess  shields and halbreds would be best. Technically you only need 1 shield, so the others could be great swords or paired hand weapons.

Paired hand weapons are generally always better, but any big bad unit we run will likely get buffed by a chaos sorcerer lord or one of our other sources of rerolls.  Maybe if you run a specifically nurgle getting reroll wound rolls with the nurgle shrine ability and the +1 save. Alternatively you could run undivided warshrine and get reroll hit and wounds that way. I think the great swords are better if getting buffed by sorc or shrine using undivided prayer, as the rend can make a pretty big difference against some units. 

Wouldn't taking only 1 shield mean you'd have to allocate the first two mortal wounds to that model and thus you'd lose it pretty quickly?

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38 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

It is really sad that the ugliest, oldest and most hated miniatures, in a range of wonderful other monsters and even updated ones (knights, warriors, lord...) are -according to consensus here -  the best units of StD book. I am, unfortunately, speaking about -shame on me - the marauders.

PS: I don't want to buy some. I'll try my best without them.

Could always convert or use other models like Bloodreavers or the warcry guys. I think thats what most people will end up doing.

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33 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Could always convert or use other models like Bloodreavers or the warcry guys. I think thats what most people will end up doing.

It's not only about marauder. It is also the fact that those soooooo iconic units Warriors & Knights are not the center of our best builds. Knights are ok. Warriors are super resilient but really lack in damage. And are expensive. 

TBH, the last year battleforce is really what I wanted to see on the battlefield. Nobody's speaking about the charriot. I like this piece of plastic. It seems a bit expensive (in pts). Too bad I got 3 of those dudes. lol

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3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

So I've sat down with the book for a few hours. And my conclusion is, its a dud. The poor spell lore, the low dmg on the combat units resembling anything midly elite. The Elite, Warriors and Knights just aren't that tough. 

The best list is probably plague touched in Ravagers or Despoilers, cabalist is a ****** take. I think Khorne probably got the best overall contribution from S2D units. This is the worst Battletome in some time, probably a 2-3 book on average. If ever there was book that should have had high access to rend -2 it would have been S2D. I think the mentioned Plaguetouched might be a high skill 3-2 build at best. I don't expect to see any Chaos Faction on the top tables in the new year.

The spell lore is poor? The spell lore that has a point and click always strikes last? And a teleport, even out of combat, when our best unit can easily make the 9” charge? And a spell that, for the first time to my recollection in all of AoS, turns off movement entirely, including pile ins...effectively defeating deathstars nearly by itself? 

I think it may be one of the best lores in the game to date.
 

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10 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Maraurders are taken in lots of 20, and max 40. The 20 buff is just rend, and with the way AoS tends to work you shouldn't get more than 20-25 25mm bases into combat.  At 40 you start running in battleshock issues really hard really fast, as you start auto failing battle shocks at 5+ deaths.  While losing jsut -1 rend isn't gonna break your damage so much if you lose a single model. 

once you start thinking of maxing the maurders other units start to matter like unmade. 

I think there is a real reason to run marauders in max size units for a few reasons. There is some issue with battleshock for sure, but if you run one or two max then you can cover it with a pocket command point in an emergency. 

First, I've run larger units of 25 mm bases and I've found its very viable to get 30 models in at once, especially with the massive charges marauders should get regularly. That makes the output for a large unit about 50 percent higher. 

Second, I think the rend is worth quite a bit more than you give it credit for, especially with the save reroll that's starting to proliferate through the game. Against a 4+ save with 30 models you'll kill 10 with no rend, 13 with rend. With a reroll that turns into 5 with no rend, 9 with rend. Almost double the effectiveness. 

Third, big units take buffs a lot better than small units. It'll be tougher to manage the wholly within bubbles but getting 40 models with full rerolls to hit, wound and save is obviously better than 20. S2D has great buffs but you only have so many so getting the most out of them is key. 

In my eyes marauders are essentially mortal plague monks. They're faster, more resilient, more expensive, but get access to extremely similar buffs. So just look how the monks are typically run. Also, I've been thinking about it and funny enough it seems like Archaon really just wants to run big blobs of marauders instead of elite units. He solves the battle shock, has a bigger buff bubble for larger units, and they're the best target for By My Will since they die so easy. 

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23 minutes ago, Rivener said:

The spell lore is poor? The spell lore that has a point and click always strikes last? And a teleport, even out of combat, when our best unit can easily make the 9” charge? And a spell that, for the first time to my recollection in all of AoS, turns off movement entirely, including pile ins...effectively defeating deathstars nearly by itself? 

I think it may be one of the best lores in the game to date.
 

A spell is more than its affect. It has 12" range, and is a 7+ to cast meaning you don't even successfully cast it 45% of the time, and it will always be in unbind range. 

The spell which stops movement is also 12" range likely meaning you are going to be in combat or very close to combat with the unit as well. 

Both these spell require being 12" away before your movement phase. 

The teleport spell is genuinely good, but high casting value and lack of quality casters is still an issue. Every teleport spell lets you leave combat that isn't unique. 

If you think this lore is good. You haven't been watching, hallowheart and Bonespliters have a massively more powerful and higher utility spell lores. Even HoS have superior range and better casters.

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The high spell values are reasoned due to high effect. Also keep in mind that you can easily go +1 to cast with a ritual in cabalists, +2 with the Cogs-Endless-Spell and further +1 with a DP Command Ability or  and/or an allied Tzeentch Birb. StD can perform some really nasty magic sheningans right now.

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On 12/12/2019 at 8:23 AM, sal4m4nd3r said:

The warshrine also got a HUGE increase to killing power. +1 damage, got rend of -1 and +1 to hit and wound!!  It WAS 4 attacks 4/4/-/1 and now is 4 attacks 3/3/-1/2!!!  I have always been aggressive with my warshrine. I have it up front charging, blocking off area and avenues, target saturation. Its a huge base and I use it to block certain types of troops from piling into my marauders. 

I like to use my Warshrine as just generally a big annoying thing in my opponents way they have no choice but attack. The attack upgrade is a welcomed improvement. 

It seems the prayers took a nerf as an ally unit in another Gods army, both Protection of  Gods and Ruinous Powers only target Slaves units. Even if the Shine can always target self and still cast Judgments it is a huge blow to unit's effectiveness in anything but S2D army now... unless you also ally in some Warriors or something to buff.

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57 minutes ago, Charleston said:

The high spell values are reasoned due to high effect. Also keep in mind that you can easily go +1 to cast with a ritual in cabalists, +2 with the Cogs-Endless-Spell and further +1 with a DP Command Ability or  and/or an allied Tzeentch Birb. StD can perform some really nasty magic sheningans right now.

No they are poorly reasoned, fist of gork is a 5+ spell, with a buffed version on 10+, in an army that can get up to +6 to cast.

1. No one is going to use cabalist, because it's clearly on its face the worst. It's a 3+ and you have to kill models, to get the bonus

2. Cogs gives an additional cast attempt, not +1 to cast.

3. That is some serious reaching, you won't take a Tzeentch DP because that is the worst one. And, we don't even have points for ordinary hammers let along allying in a model to make our battle traits worth using.

Seriously you should look at what the other books are doing in the way of magic before you consider what S2D have as good.

If anyone is on the fence about starting S2D I would suggest they not, unless they are really into painting and collecting and don't mind slow frustrating grinds to a lose.

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Sure the spells are close range, but doesn't that fit with S2D  supposedly being a quite durable high-wound-count melee army?  Wouldn't it be strange if they had as much ranged and spellpower as magic-based armies / glass-cannon armies?

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24 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

No they are poorly reasoned, fist of gork is a 5+ spell, with a buffed version on 10+, in an army that can get up to +6 to cast.

1. No one is going to use cabalist, because it's clearly on its face the worst. It's a 3+ and you have to kill models, to get the bonus

2. Cogs gives an additional cast attempt, not +1 to cast.

3. That is some serious reaching, you won't take a Tzeentch DP because that is the worst one. And, we don't even have points for ordinary hammers let along allying in a model to make our battle traits worth using.

Seriously you should look at what the other books are doing in the way of magic before you consider what S2D have as good.

If anyone is on the fence about starting S2D I would suggest they not, unless they are really into painting and collecting and don't mind slow frustrating grinds to a lose.

It would be awesome that pink horrors could produce blue horrors without needing Disciples of Tzeentch alliegance for rituals purposes. Maybe the most adequate unit for being sacrifice is the snake boys that can create 1 snake every turn.

Anyway, getting +1/+2/+3 almost secures you each spell you try, and althought it's true that the lore of the damned hasn't any outstanding spells (maybe the one that makes enemy fighting last), magic heroes have pretty decent spells that you would want to ensure.

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8 hours ago, Gibs said:

So assuming mix and match is intended what combinations make the most sense for those with access to the numbers? 

I would assume 10 or 15 double hand weapons for rerolls and then remaining with shields and halberds to get in their attacks witg 2 inch range and also provide the 5+ mortal wound save. Oddly enough currently the mortal wound save is worded when allocating wounds to units with shields, not models with shields, so i think technically you could take just 1 shield and just save that model to the end and maintain the 5+ mortal wound save without sacrificing damage. That seems to need an errata, though i agree that weapons seem to be intended to be mixed.

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50 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

1. No one is going to use cabalist, because it's clearly on its face the worst. It's a 3+ and you have to kill models, to get the bonus

Well there's your problem. If you automatically assume the magic focused sub faction is useless, then of course the magic is going to look worse. I do think think Cabalists have potential, the spells are really good but have huge weaknesses so you have to build to make them work. Take the trait to make the cast boost ritual go off on a 2+, the artifact for auto ritual on a clutch turn, take cogs or balewind for extra casts, snake cultists for regenerating sacrifices, portal to guarantee range for one spell... It's a lot of investment sure, but being able to use those spells reliably might be worth it. It'll be fun to see if someone can make it work. 

Really the biggest weakness I can see for the cabalists is a lack of cheap double casters to put down endless spells.

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2 hours ago, Grimrock said:

First, I've run larger units of 25 mm bases and I've found its very viable to get 30 models in at once, especially with the massive charges marauders should get regularly.

The way i see combat is specific unit removal and general i feel banking on 30 25mms in my experience is rather unrealistic, and from there once you hit 40 marauders i think other units start to compete with them. 

20 models can be buffed to the point of getting a job done, and thats how i see army design. I build units to do jobs. I want units that can do 30+ wounds in one round against a 4+ save, once a unit reachs that it's in a good spot and more i find wasteful.  A chaos lord + sorc Lord/undivided war shrine prayer is enough to get you there.  Mind you this needs a mind stealer, and maybe you want a khorne daemon prince to let you get the stealer in range to do it's deal.  BUt from there you can take multiple instances of marauders that you can send out every turn to kill stuff. 

 

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

No one is going to use cabalist

models are cheap and a marauder army can definitly bring the numbers to off set any lost of what 3 models max?? or whatever?? that's nothing, all game that won't even cost you a full 20 maruader squad.  While just +1 to cast is enough  to tip you into a safer 6 to cast range. 

I think gaunt summoners supported by a Lord of Change is not a bad idea in cabalist, even more if you want endless spells as you can then take pink horrors. 

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54 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Really the biggest weakness I can see for the cabalists is a lack of cheap double casters to put down endless spells.

for generic endless spells the gaunt summoner is sort of a 3 spell wizard as he can summon 10 pinks on turn 1.  2 gaunts a lord of change make for a great spell battery for endless spells all geting +1 to cast a turn from the big bird, and the pinks geting +2 because they have friends. 

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2 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

for generic endless spells the gaunt summoner is sort of a 3 spell wizard as he can summon 10 pinks on turn 1.  2 gaunts a lord of change make for a great spell battery for endless spells all geting +1 to cast a turn from the big bird, and the pinks geting +2 because they have friends. 

But do pinks get a spell from the lore of the damned? 

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