AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion

[CJPT]

12 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

the teleport spell (on an autocharge marauder unit that happens to have fight twice and death frenzy)

Been thinking about this, and while it's a strong combo I think people might be underestimating how difficult it'll be to usefully combine teleport + fight twice. The Chaos Lord's CA is used at the start of the combat phase, and requires the unit be wholly within 12". The Lord will need to run to catch up to the teleported unit, and can only move a max of 11" himself without buffs. This massively limits the area you can teleport to and still benefit from the fight twice CA. Unless I'm missing something, obviously!

[ChaosUndivided]

These forums are hard to bear during these pre-release weeks. People act like they are playing against the most competitive players in the world and gripe whine moan and groan over how the newest update isnt edgy enuff its not OP... How am i gonna win with this sh*#!?

I remember specificaly Skaven then it turns out they got OP cheezy tactics and everyone celebrates. This very same thing also happen durring Khorne update and guess what they not bad... Not top tier cuz that requires some broken janky thing to use but their not push overs by any means. WTF is so wrong about that?

Why can't you be happy that your army got new models and an update and are actually playable now? You want some insta win tactic that is obvious prior to even trying a single game to go along with it?

SMH

[Sinfullyvannila]

Just now, ChaosUndivided said:

These forums are hard to bear during these pre-release weeks. People act like they are playing against the most competitive players in the world and gripe whine moan and groan over how the newest update isnt edgy enuff its not OP... How am i gonna win with this sh*#!?

I remember specificaly Skaven then it turns out they got OP cheezy tactics and everyone celebrates. This very same thing also happen durring Khorne update and guess what they not bad... Not top tier cuz that requires some broken janky thing to use but their not push overs by any means. WTF is so wrong about that?

Why can't you be happy that your army got new models and an update and are actually playable now? You want some insta win tactic that is obvious prior to even trying a single game to go along with it?

SMH

People seem to expect GW to take power creep to the max with each book apparently.

[JackStreicher]

4 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

People seem to expect GW to take power creep to the max with each book apparently.

Not really.

my main enemy is The Big Waagh! Or Ironjawz so I for example tend to compare. As of yet I don‘t know how to survive even 20 ardboys with the Warchanter buff, yet I haven‘t tested the new S2D Battletome so I am missing quite a lot of options (srsly I have no clue how to beat a 2x Warchanter + 2x 20-25 Ardboys without heavy shooting, their stats and dmg are just broken, so I want sth. That can stand up to them)

Edited December 9, 2019 by JackStreicher

[ChaosUndivided]

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Not really.

my main enemy is The Big Waagh! Or Ironjawz so I for example tend to compare. As of yet I don‘t know how to survive even 20 ardboys with the Warchanter buff, yet I haven‘t tested the new S2D Battletome so I am missing quite a lot of options (srsly I have no clue how to beat a 2x Warchanter + 2x 20-25 Ardboys without heavy shooting)

This is durable army with attack twice and attack again when you die abilities... Thats just a small taste of their power. 

Play to the objectives not to table opponent!

[JackStreicher]

5 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Play to the objectives not to table opponent

The issue is: he usually tables my FeC by turn 2:

you can‘t run from them - they‘re too fast, you can‘t kill them (too tanky) and they Overkill anything they touch. Even a Ghoulking on Terrorgheist fighting twice can‘t kill enough of 25 orruks to not be overkilled by the retaliation ...so playing for objectives (which I do) is not possible since his army covers half the board and just overkills everything.

maybe the Chaos Warriors can tank a their damage a little... but that 2 dmg a hit is just too much in so many ways

Edited December 9, 2019 by JackStreicher
Spelling

[ChaosUndivided]

@JackStreicher this is a problem that many different armies face. Im not at the table with you so i cant say where/what is going wrong but proper use of fast chaff units, clever deployment, and strong understanding of the fundamentals can and do trump these hard hitting hard to remove tactics. It is possible.

[Asamu]

1 hour ago, misthv said:

Any thoughts on a more elite list? Not a fan of horde armies, nor marauders in particular (sculpts, or conversions). Riders seem ok sculp wise.
 

Just bought 2 start collecting-boxes as a foundation, I do have Archaon but not too fond of him in casual play, have some Varanguards but seem a bit costly w/o Archaon. Oh well—any thoughts are welcome  Have a lot of other Chaos stuff too, Khorne/Tzeentch mainly that would be fun to ally. 

You can basically do the Fyreslayers Hearthguard Berserker list with a blob of 30 chaos warriors. If you run it as Khorne, you can get a lot of + attack buffs going. You could also do it with knights, but I don't think they're quite as good for that specific sort of build (Actually may be a bit more durable than the HGB, but they don't hit as hard, because no mortal wounds). Nurgle may be best for because of the nurgle Daemon Prince for some mortal wounds output, but you could run any mark with it.

Archaon w/ 1x3 Varanguard, a sorcerer, Chaos Lord, whatever else you want to put in (2 more battleline at least, but lots of options there) looks pretty good.

Lots of cavalry with a ruinbringer warband seems like a decent elite army.

There are a lot of options in the army, and I don't think running loads of marauders is going to be anything like a requirement, even if it does end up being the best way to play the army.

55 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Not really.

my main enemy is The Big Waagh! Or Ironjawz so I for example tend to compare. As of yet I don‘t know how to survive even 20 ardboys with the Warchanter buff, yet I haven‘t tested the new S2D Battletome so I am missing quite a lot of options (srsly I have no clue how to beat a 2x Warchanter + 2x 20-25 Ardboys without heavy shooting, their stats and dmg are just broken, so I want sth. That can stand up to them)

Well, with the new S2D tome, we have a few ways to make them strike at the end of combat (or not fight at all with Be'lakor), and can make units absurdly tough to kill with warshrines, re-rollable saves, etc... Ardboys hit hard, but they're "only" rend -1, so vs even a re-rollable 5+.

Hard to say exactly what you might want to consider running without knowing what models you have and what your opponent's list  is.

The sort of obvious choice here would be something like the Nurgle Daemon Prince with 40 man units of marauders to get the drop on him, and force him to fight them with the debuff. Ardboys do 1 wound per attack and have very little mortal wound protection, so will be taking a lot of damage back from the NDP command ability. 

The other way to go might be to use Archaon, since I don't think Ironjawz will really be able to kill him (The WHTV game didn't have enough screening units or any of the control abilities).

There are a few ways to muck up his movement and shut down his ability to get the drop on you with this book, like the Khorne DP command ability, which will give you some options for overloading his big units one at a time. I think this last one might be the easiest way to go, since it gives you a lot more options in list building; you just put a Khorne DP in your list and take some punchy units that can hit through his armor; maybe something to make him strike last, etc... Untamed beasts are another great way to block his alpha strike potential with their pre-game move 2-3 units of 9 is only 140-210 points, and can probably protect the majority of your army.

Even slaughterbrutes are actually quite good at 170 now with the Khorne Aura from the general; they average ~12-13 damage in combat (Which is fantastic for a monster at that price). With Despoilers, they can also heal and be protected from shooting.

New slaves to darkness has the tools to answer almost anything; it's just a matter of fitting the ones you want/need into a cohesive army.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Asamu

[ChaosUndivided]

Im a big fan of diversions, i like to put 2 or 3 really big scarey things on the table in the most threatening positions possible to force my opponent to deal with them or face the consequences.

I have owned the Slaughterbrute and Warshrine and MantiLord for a very long time and they work great for sacrificial diversions to either take the brunt of initial 1st/2nd turn onslaught or to lure enemy units out of position so that my main force can capitalize on gaps and control objectives.

From what i see with assorted rules and possible combos the new battletome will play right into my already pre-existing strategy. I may have to pick up a couple Deamon Prince now for the activation shenanigans and final nail in opponents coffin.

[Syrex]

Has anyone tried Mantics Northmen as an alternative for Marauders (I know it won't fly in GW tournaments).
I'd love to see a size comparison, but they definitely fit the aesthetic I'm looking for.
https://www.manticgames.com/games/kings-of-war/northern-alliance-kings-of-war/northern-alliance-clansman-regiment/
About half the price of the GW ones for any Aussies around also.

Didn't actually see any mention of them when searching for marauder alternatives (I think they've only come out fairly recently).
I have 2 boxes on order, so will post some photos once they arrive

[Rors]

I suspect StD will still be a less than 50% win rate army at tournaments but will also regularly place high.
It looks like the myriad of ways to mess with movement and stack buffs and debuffs will make it a rewarding army for chess playing generals but weak in the hands of a player who tends to just push models forward.

 

 

[Sinfullyvannila]

What do you guys think of the Vortex Beast? I plan on buying a couple for 40k, they looked over costed when they were 200 points, but now they look tempting.

[themortalgod]

5 hours ago, ChaosUndivided said:

These forums are hard to bear during these pre-release weeks. People act like they are playing against the most competitive players in the world and gripe whine moan and groan over how the newest update isnt edgy enuff its not OP... How am i gonna win with this sh*#!?

I remember specificaly Skaven then it turns out they got OP cheezy tactics and everyone celebrates. This very same thing also happen durring Khorne update and guess what they not bad... Not top tier cuz that requires some broken janky thing to use but their not push overs by any means. WTF is so wrong about that?

Why can't you be happy that your army got new models and an update and are actually playable now? You want some insta win tactic that is obvious prior to even trying a single game to go along with it?

SMH

Well for me, it is because I do. Most players in my local meta have plenty of disposable income and are looking to make the strongest army possible. (several of who are looking to practice to climb the ITC rankings) If I can't go against the most powerful lists in the game, piloted by very capable players. I'm going to get thumped every game. I'm not looking for power to creep forward, just to be able to be on the same par as armies I can expect to face. My ideal army is between the 60th and 80th percentile. I don't like playing the most powerful armies. Unfortunately, I still feel pretty confident in putting this army between the 35th and 45th percentile. Maybe a bit higher if there is something key missing that I don't know about. 

I don't remember the last time I got to play against a casual list. I'm used to facing 25+ eels, Quad Keepers, etc every game.

I'd also add that if any army isn't really strong, my local doesn't even want to play against it. I was playing a more casual thematic list for most of this year and people actually stopped wanting to play against me because it was too easy to win. They didn't feel like they were being challenged enough. I haven't actually been able to play an AoS game in about 2 months because I've more or less had to accept I have to start over and build a stronger army. Mostly been playing 40k, KT, and Warcry in the meantime.

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by themortalgod

[themortalgod]

2 hours ago, Syrex said:

Has anyone tried Mantics Northmen as an alternative for Marauders (I know it won't fly in GW tournaments).
I'd love to see a size comparison, but they definitely fit the aesthetic I'm looking for.
https://www.manticgames.com/games/kings-of-war/northern-alliance-kings-of-war/northern-alliance-clansman-regiment/
About half the price of the GW ones for any Aussies around also.

Didn't actually see any mention of them when searching for marauder alternatives (I think they've only come out fairly recently).
I have 2 boxes on order, so will post some photos once they arrive

I plan to use them, but my local store doesn't have them in stock yet. I have always hated the conan style barbarians that were "supposed" to be from the frozen north in the fluff. Never made any sense to me. GoT style wildlings is a way better marauder art style for chaos imo. These new mantic models are great, just need head swaps to be more chaosy.

[Freejack02]

59 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

What do you guys think of the Vortex Beast? I plan on buying a couple for 40k, they looked over costed when they were 200 points, but now they look tempting.

I've used mine in games I wasn't being totally competitive, and honestly they're just not good. A point break is always nice, but 170 is still too much for what they do - they don't hit very hard in melee, and their aura only does damage 50% of the time. The slaughterbrute seems like a better deal for the same price. 

[Syrex]

 

37 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

I plan to use them, but my local store doesn't have them in stock yet. I have always hated the conan style barbarians that were "supposed" to be from the frozen north in the fluff. Never made any sense to me. GoT style wildlings is a way better marauder art style for chaos imo. These new mantic models are great, just need head swaps to be more chaosy.

I'd actually been looking at different heads recently (As I initially purchased GW Marauders).

https://puppetswar.eu/models-and-bits-49/fantasy/bits/heads/norsemen-heads.html
https://puppetswar.eu/models-and-bits-49/fantasy/bits/heads/cossack-heads.html

Both of these could work (Probably moreso the norsemen), just wish there was more than 5.
[edit] Might be a bit big (32mm scale), and the real thing obviously won't look as good as the renders

Edited December 10, 2019 by Syrex

[Inquisitorsz]

So In terms of Archaon and his everchosen buddies..... 

I did some maths on the Varanguard. 
First of all, you're going to want to take 6th circle for sure. The bonus is huge. 
With a mark of khorne and archaon choosing his mark of khorne and being on the table....
These guys get to hit on 2+, with rerolls, wound on 2+, rend -1  and 2 damage on the charge with 6 attacks each. 
So a unit of 3 Varanguard (with 6th circle buff) does 14.58 wounds with rend -1 and damage 2 on the charge. 
That's 19.4 wounds (after 4+ saves) or 29.16 wounds (after 6+ saves) 
That's with only the built in free buffs (and archaon still alive and within 18") but otherwise without any extra spells or command abilities.
So that's pretty decent. You're likely to roll over almost anything that's not super tough AND immune to battleshock.  

Here's the problem though. The army doesn't have any real ways to clear chaff and screens... you don't want to waste your varanguard turn killing 5 spite revenants or hounds or something.   
Secondly Mortek Guard exist. 

The same maths, against a petrifax elite mortek guard unit with their reroll saves ability....  results in 7.3 wounds.  
Your varanguard just hit a brick wall. 
The army also doesn't have any easy ways to get to and/or snipe harvesters. So basically, the whole elite everchosen list completely falls apart against OBR.  

Objective play was always going to be tough with a 10-11 model army. You really need to be able to kill stuff. And well.... you just can't kill those mortek guard well enough. I'm not sure anything can save some lucky high mortal wound spells, but that's not overly relevant.  

At least if you're fielding your own chaff and horde units, you can try to contest objectives. Everchosen can't do that. 

I'm not sure if you'd want to take Arhcaon with 2 units or 3 units or 4 units. 
4 units get's you literally nothing else. 
3 units means you can fit in some cultist chaff and/or another hero. 
2 units gives you 600pts to play with and is probably going to be the most flexible option. 

I feel like you're going to want at the manticore sorcerer or the gaunt summoner for a bit of magic punch and a decent hoard clearing spell. Something to deal with those mortek guard. That leaves you with 340 left. 

Keep in mind I'm not sure how battleline works in everchosen..... i assume you can take archaon and 4 units of varanguard, but I can't seem to find the text that makes varanguard battleline. Maybe the review I watched just didn't mention it. 
So you might still need to fit in some more battleline I guess you'd want a big marauder or chaos warrior unit.  Perhaps 2 x 20 marauders or 1 x 15 warriors. 
Then maybe a warcry warband for a screen/chaff? Can't quite fit a sphiranx in. Maybe you take 10 warriors and the sphiranx?
 
So perhaps something like this? 
Archaon,
2x varanguard,
sorcerer on manticore or gaunt summoner,
sphiranx,
20 marauders,
warcry warband
= 1980pts 
 

[Mayple]

I, for one, welcome my new khorne marked Daemon Prince overlords. 


A lot of good close combat factions out there. Would be a shame if they never got there

[Rors]

1 minute ago, Mayple said:

I, for one, welcome my new khorne marked Daemon Prince overlords. 


A lot of good close combat factions out there. Would be a shame if they never got there

Yep, half their movement then hit them with that spell that permanently removes an inch of movement for each wound! Turn a deathstar into a paper weight while you pick apart the rest.

 

It's a shame we don't have that many ways to deal damage at range, or it'd be insanely good.

[Mayple]

3 minutes ago, Rors said:

Yep, half their movement then hit them with that spell that permanently removes an inch of movement for each wound! Turn a deathstar into a paper weight while you pick apart the rest.

 

It's a shame we don't have that many ways to deal damage at range, or it'd be insanely good.

I'm gravitating towards the spell that rolls a dice for each model in the unit and does mortal wounds on 6s. A single casualty and they can no longer move at all! That's a -mean- spell. Casting value 7, but you can bet it'll be decisive when it pops off.

I may or may not also plan to include both Be'lakor and the Changeling. No fun allowed

[SunStorm]

Looking at the previews, is there no faction rules for just a warriors and knights list?

 

 

[Vitch_EGS]

@Rors If Helcannons came back with a bang to be used with the movement carry on we'd be laughing. Good thematic sheild wall of Iron Golems and a cannon battery would be cool as hell.

[Charleston]

@SunStorm no article so far, althrough Cavalaery lists will be better playable than before. We now have 2 different Lords to buff cavalery, the one mounted on karkadrak and the old one. Also, knights received a buff, the Ruinbringer battalion now deals strict Mortals, and the better Auras give us better sheningans.

I for my own am toying with this list for my first games:

Legion: Despoilers

Heroes:
Daemon Prince of Nurgle (210 pts)(Nurgle)(General: Paragon of Ruin)
Daemon Prince of Nurgle (210 pts)
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260 pts) (Nurgle) (Artifact:Helm of Many Eyes) (Spell:Whispers of Chaos)
Chaos Lord (110pkt)

Battleline:
15 Chaos Warriors with 2 Hand Weapons (Nurgle) 300pts (if FAQ allows to mix and match 5 shields and rest handweapons)
5 Knights with Glaives (Nurgle) 180pts
5 Knights with Enscrolles Weapons (Nurgle) 180pts

Behemoth:
Slaughterbrute 170
Soul Grinder (Nurgle) 210
Fomoroid Crusher 100

Should be around 2000pts. Using 15 Warriors as "Anvil" backed up that can also punch with that Chaos Lord Nurgle Aura in the back. The Sorcerer shall be used quite aggressive as the new profile allows confident meele actions quite well. Stepping close to the enemy to lock them in place with the Whispers-Spell or just dishing out Mortals against hordes with the Winds of Chaos seem quite fine. Slaghterbrute and Soul Grinder are the Distraction Carnifexes that shall be used alongside the DP´s as a Hammer. The Nurgle Prince General is supposed to give them some speed at the beginning of the game and also to protect them from ranged attacks with the Aura and Twisted Dominion.

 

In general: How is your opinion on Chaos Warriors with the new book? I am curious if "mix and match" weapons is a way to go now, it would really bolster them quite well. I am still not confident using 30 of them in a blobb as it is now 600pts and seems like a dead blobb on the field. Althrough, such a blobb with mixed weapons, nurgle keyword and thath Rotbringers HEro for a Cloud of Flies CA would be awesome, having 2+ Rerolling Save against Shooting and 3+ against meele.

[JackStreicher]

I was thinking about running:

Chaos Lord on Krakadrak (Style) - 250
Chaos Lord on Foot - 110
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Foot - 110

40 Marauders - 300
15 Chaos Warriors - 300
5 Chaos Knights - 180
1 Warshrine - 170
1 Chaos War Mammoth - 320
1 Sphiranx - 100
1 Iron Golems (Screen) - 70
1 Doom Sigil - 40
+ 1 CP - 50
------ 2000 ------

I could switch the Chaos Lord for another sorcerer or a Demon Prince but I like the model.
While Marauders do their thing my focus is on the mammoth (of Khorne I guess) to deal the maximum amount of damage to anything that draws too close to tactical spots on the table. It is supported by "all them suport auras" and it can be made to fight twice with bonuses to hit and wound which is brutal. 
The Chaos Warriors are my main tanks while the shiranx supports whereever needed. The iron Golems are great for holding objectives or to screen.
I guess I'll play the "switching Generals" legion for this army  (though the Demon Prince one would be nice as well, but I do not own one at the moment and I dislike the models except be'lakor)

Edited December 10, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Salt_merchant]

swords or axe on prince?

 

is the extra attack and extra inch worth the loss of a +1 to hit and an extra rend

 

d3 damage and damage 2 are pretty much a wash