AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion

[mmimzie]

2 minutes ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

But do pinks get a spell from the lore of the damned? 

no thats why i said it's good if your running generic endless spells.  a few generic endlezss spells, 2 gaunts, and a bird dombined with the daekfire cvcan make for some pretty strong spell onslaughts. you could potentialy get that endless szpell doing flat 10 mortals to targets in it's path. 

[whispersofblood]

56 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Well there's your problem. If you automatically assume the magic focused sub faction is useless, then of course the magic is going to look worse. I do think think Cabalists have potential, the spells are really good but have huge weaknesses so you have to build to make them work. Take the trait to make the cast boost ritual go off on a 2+, the artifact for auto ritual on a clutch turn, take cogs or balewind for extra casts, snake cultists for regenerating sacrifices, portal to guarantee range for one spell... It's a lot of investment sure, but being able to use those spells reliably might be worth it. It'll be fun to see if someone can make it work. 

Really the biggest weakness I can see for the cabalists is a lack of cheap double casters to put down endless spells.

Write the list, I've tried there isn't any play there .  You'll spend a ton of points trying to mke 12" spells viable , and still have not solved the complete lack of dmg in the faction.

 

1 hour ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

It would be awesome that pink horrors could produce blue horrors without needing Disciples of Tzeentch alliegance for rituals purposes. Maybe the most adequate unit for being sacrifice is the snake boys that can create 1 snake every turn.

Anyway, getting +1/+2/+3 almost secures you each spell you try, and althought it's true that the lore of the damned hasn't any outstanding spells (maybe the one that makes enemy fighting last), magic heroes have pretty decent spells that you would want to ensure.

Exactly you go through hoops to do what most factions do naturally, and then still don't hve anything to cast other than the Sorcerer Lord on Manticore spell, which is to be fair an amazing spell.

 

43 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

The way i see combat is specific unit removal and general i feel banking on 30 25mms in my experience is rather unrealistic, and from there once you hit 40 marauders i think other units start to compete with them. 

20 models can be buffed to the point of getting a job done, and thats how i see army design. I build units to do jobs. I want units that can do 30+ wounds in one round against a 4+ save, once a unit reachs that it's in a good spot and more i find wasteful.  A chaos lord + sorc Lord/undivided war shrine prayer is enough to get you there.  Mind you this needs a mind stealer, and maybe you want a khorne daemon prince to let you get the stealer in range to do it's deal.  BUt from there you can take multiple instances of marauders that you can send out every turn to kill stuff. 

 

models are cheap and a marauder army can definitly bring the numbers to off set any lost of what 3 models max?? or whatever?? that's nothing, all game that won't even cost you a full 20 maruader squad.  While just +1 to cast is enough  to tip you into a safer 6 to cast range. 

I think gaunt summoners supported by a Lord of Change is not a bad idea in cabalist, even more if you want endless spells as you can then take pink horrors. 

You need to roll a die to even have the chance to sacrifice models, not the start of a great process to implement an okish strategy.

 

1 hour ago, Zanzou said:

Sure the spells are close range, but doesn't that fit with S2D  supposedly being a quite durable high-wound-count melee army?  Wouldn't it be strange if they had as much ranged and spellpower as magic-based armies / glass-cannon armies?

Its not that high wound count, durability is yet to be seen,

[Lord Krungharr]

What base sizes are the Chaos Knights?  I'm wondering if I can proxy my Bull Centaur-Renders (from Legion of Azgorh) as Chaos Knights.  Guess I could use my Fireglaives as Marauders to try them out?  Drazhoath is definitely a Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (the old Lammasu one).

I'm gonna first try out Chaos Undivided, as my other old, soooo old!, Slaves models are painted as forces of Malal.  Don't they ignore battleshock and get a 6++ ward save or something?  Don't get my tome til tomorrow.....

[DarrinTheOccult]

13 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

What base sizes are the Chaos Knights?  I'm wondering if I can proxy my Bull Centaur-Renders (from Legion of Azgorh) as Chaos Knights.  Guess I could use my Fireglaives as Marauders to try them out?  Drazhoath is definitely a Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (the old Lammasu one).

I'm gonna first try out Chaos Undivided, as my other old, soooo old!, Slaves models are painted as forces of Malal.  Don't they ignore battleshock and get a 6++ ward save or something?  Don't get my tome til tomorrow.....

As I remember, chaos knights go on 75x42mm oval bases

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, mmimzie said:

The way i see combat is specific unit removal and general i feel banking on 30 25mms in my experience is rather unrealistic, and from there once you hit 40 marauders i think other units start to compete with them. 

20 models can be buffed to the point of getting a job done, and thats how i see army design. I build units to do jobs. I want units that can do 30+ wounds in one round against a 4+ save, once a unit reachs that it's in a good spot and more i find wasteful.  A chaos lord + sorc Lord/undivided war shrine prayer is enough to get you there.  Mind you this needs a mind stealer, and maybe you want a khorne daemon prince to let you get the stealer in range to do it's deal.  BUt from there you can take multiple instances of marauders that you can send out every turn to kill stuff. 

 

models are cheap and a marauder army can definitly bring the numbers to off set any lost of what 3 models max?? or whatever?? that's nothing, all game that won't even cost you a full 20 maruader squad.  While just +1 to cast is enough  to tip you into a safer 6 to cast range. 

I think gaunt summoners supported by a Lord of Change is not a bad idea in cabalist, even more if you want endless spells as you can then take pink horrors. 

You could also use Splintered Fang as sacrifices and bring back their snake.

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm wondering how Gorebeast Chariots will fare in the new book.  I saw on WH Community that Chaos Chariots are battleline in the allegiance, they didn't mention Gorebeast ones.  I always liked those guys, cool beasties.

[Sinfullyvannila]

3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

No they are poorly reasoned, fist of gork is a 5+ spell, with a buffed version on 10+, in an army that can get up to +6 to cast.

 

False equivalence. Fist of Gork isn’t a Lore Spell.

[Asamu]

23 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm wondering how Gorebeast Chariots will fare in the new book.  I saw on WH Community that Chaos Chariots are battleline in the allegiance, they didn't mention Gorebeast ones.  I always liked those guys, cool beasties.

At 150 pts, they don't look promising. The normal chariots at 120 look similarly bad.

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Write the list, I've tried there isn't any play there .  You'll spend a ton of points trying to mke 12" spells viable , and still have not solved the complete lack of dmg in the faction.

Spell portal increases that range to 30". You have 2 2 spell casters in the list aside from Archaon (Be'lakor and Gaunt Summoners - which also summon more units).

Darkfire Demonrift is the highest damage endless spell in the game. If you have 4 wizards, it's doing minimum 5 mortal wounds if in range of them. If the enemy army also has wizards, it can be even stronger.

There are a bunch of spells that restrict enemy movement/slow them down, giving you more time to deal damage, and there are 3 anti-horde spells, and another spell that does a guaranteed 3 mortal wounds if you have more wizards than your opponent (3+ to cast, so if you get even a +1, it can't fail).

Marauders and Chosen have reasonable output for the points even without buffs, which are widely available in the roster; re-rolls to hit and wound can ~double their output, and there's a command ability that lets them swing twice.

[Lord Krungharr]

Dang it, it's looking like my proxy army using my Legion of Azgorh units isn't going to be very amazing.  I have the old whirlwind and tenderizer as my Skullcrackers, and was going to use those as Gorebeast Chariots.  Maybe they'll be Celestial Hurricanums instead?!?!

[whispersofblood]

3 hours ago, Asamu said:

At 150 pts, they don't look promising. The normal chariots at 120 look similarly bad.

Spell portal increases that range to 30". You have 2 2 spell casters in the list aside from Archaon (Be'lakor and Gaunt Summoners - which also summon more units).

Darkfire Demonrift is the highest damage endless spell in the game. If you have 4 wizards, it's doing minimum 5 mortal wounds if in range of them. If the enemy army also has wizards, it can be even stronger.

There are a bunch of spells that restrict enemy movement/slow them down, giving you more time to deal damage, and there are 3 anti-horde spells, and another spell that does a guaranteed 3 mortal wounds if you have more wizards than your opponent (3+ to cast, so if you get even a +1, it can't fail).

Marauders and Chosen have reasonable output for the points even without buffs, which are widely available in the roster; re-rolls to hit and wound can ~double their output, and there's a command ability that lets them swing twice.

Write the list.

[Asamu]

4 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Write the list.

Cabalists endless spell spam with 7 wizards/10-11 spellcasts. Not a particularly refined list. Could add a Khorne DP and go harder on shutting the opponent down while the endless spells do work, but, that seems like a "no fun allowed" list, and people would absolutely hate it. Probably mark everything that can be marked Nurgle. 

Sorcerer Lord, Spite Tongue Curse

Sorcerer Lord on Manticore, General: Mighty Ritualist, Artefact: Black Athame, spell: Mask of Darkness

Be'lakor Whispers of Chaos

Gaunt Summoner: Mask of Darkness  - summons 10 pinks turn 1, which cast an endless spell

Gaunt Summoner: Binding Damnation - summons 10 pinks turn 1, which cast an endless spell

Marauders x20 x3

Iron Golems x8 x2 - cheap 4+ re-rollable save units

Endless spells

Balewind Vortex

Darkfire Demonrift

Umbral Spellportal

Malevolent Maelstrom (it's 10 points and can hit a pretty large area)

Realmscourge Rupture or Geminids

Gnashing Jaws

That'd come out to 1990. Probably could drop some endless spells, but you have a lot of spellcasts, and the Pinks don't get allegiance spells. Black Athame lets you guarantee the ritual once per game, and it's going off on a 2+ the rest of the time, so it shouldn't fail in most games. You could run a battalion, but I don't think it's really worth it with this sort of list.

 

The other Cabalists list, which is probably stronger, but will almost certainly get some nerfs:

Cabalists from Hysh - everything nurgle

Daemon Prince; Aetherquartz Brooch

Sorcerer Lord - General: Mighty Ritualist, Artefact: Black Athame, Binding Damnation

Sorcerer Lord - Mask of Darkness

Be'lakor - Whispers of Chaos or Mask of Darkness

Chaos Marauders x40 x2 

Marauder Horsemen x5 x3

Chaos Warriors x5 x 1

Extra Command Point

Darkfire Demonrift 

Umbral Spellportal or Soulscream Bridge

Plaguetouched Warband

This is the filth. You teleport 40 marauders in turn 1 after buffing them with re-rolls on hits/wounds/saves and stack the nurgle DP command ability on them to force the opponent's army to kill itself after they swing. Once again, making the ritual as reliable as possible for the casting bonus.

You can drop the endless spells for more more marauders and/or a warshrine instead of some of the warriors/horsemen in this one, and that's probably better.

There have been a few variants on this sort of list in the thread, and Cabalists is the obvious choice for marauder alpha striking with Mask of Darkness.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Asamu

[Ellarr]

Maybe play the faction for a bit before passing judgement either way! It's ridiculous to make sweeping generalist statements so early and I think we would all be happier if it stopped in favour of discussion of *possibilities*, to be backed up with subsequent playtesting.

[Charleston]

@whispersofblood can you stop sh*ttalking the spells and the book? If it does not match your requirements, feel free to back up and head to another faction you find more suiting to your expectations. Other users trie to enjoy the new release here~

 

@Others: Btw, we have an inherited access to Slaaneshi Endless Spells from what I see, as we can mark our wizzards with the Slaaneshi Keyword. Also we have access to Tzeentch ones, if there are any coming. Skaven and BoC are also potentially reachable with Allies (Brayshaman and Verminlord Corruptor)

[JackStreicher]

51 minutes ago, Charleston said:

Btw, we have an inherited access to Slaaneshi Endless Spells from what I see, as we can mark our wizzards with the Slaaneshi Keyword. Also we have access to Tzeentch ones, if there are any coming. Skaven and BoC are also potentially reachable with Allies (Brayshaman and Verminlord Corruptor)

Are you sure? The Khorne Prayers for example are Allegiance locked.

[Gibs]

Quick question:

in the new book do you have to take exactly what the warscroll battalion states? 

i.e if it says 1 hero and 6 units is that a limit or a minimum?

Also do other characters count as units in addition to being a hero? 
 

Haven’t played in awhile and a little out of touch on the list building. 
 

 

[Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed]

Does anyone know the dimensions of the Realmscourge Rupture? Sorry to be povo, I want to make a proxy one before i spend the cash. Cheers!

Edited December 14, 2019 by Vantraxx the Thrice Cursed

[Asamu]

13 minutes ago, Gibs said:

Quick question:

in the new book do you have to take exactly what the warscroll battalion states? 

i.e if it says 1 hero and 6 units is that a limit or a minimum?

Also do other characters count as units in addition to being a hero? 
 

Haven’t played in awhile and a little out of touch on the list building. 

You have to take exactly what the battalion states.

Other characters do count as units in addition to being heroes, so for ex: plaguetouched, you could run 3 mortal S2D heroes and 5 mortal S2D units all marked nurgle to fill the requirements.

[Gibs]

2 minutes ago, Asamu said:

You have to take exactly what the battalion states.

Other characters do count as units in addition to being heroes, so for ex: plaguetouched, you could run 3 mortal S2D heroes and 5 mortal S2D units all marked nurgle to fill the requirements.

That’s what I thought thanks.

assume you can take other units in the army they just don’t benefit from the battalion special rules? 

[Asamu]

21 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Are you sure? The Khorne Prayers for example are Allegiance locked.

That's because the rules for using Judgements are listed after the Khorne allegiance abilities, and it says "Khorne Priests in a Khorne army can summon...". Endless spells don't have that problem, they just take ally points to bring if they're from a different army. It's kind of weird, because you can still pay the points for Judgements, but you can't use them, despite having a Khorne priest, which fills the warscroll conditions for summoning them that doesn't have the allegiance restriction.

2 minutes ago, Gibs said:

That’s what I thought thanks.

assume you can take other units in the army they just don’t benefit from the battalion special rules? 

Yeah, the battalion is probably not going to be the entire army.

[misthv]

Anyone got their books yet? Still waiting for mine 🙂 I’m currently trying out a few ideas for 1000p lists, but come up short! Without having read any of the Battalions, Comman abilities, Artifacts etc. I was looking into something:

- Chaos Lord on Karkadrak, 250p

- Daemon Prince, 210p

- 10 Chaos Warriors, 200p

- 5 Chaos Knights, 180p

- 20 Marauders, 150p 

Might be too heavy on characters. I like idea of running more elite list, and I actually only have Bloodreavers (32mm) to proxy for Marauders—so any ideas are welcome 🙂 Might change Daemon Prince for Chaos Sorcerer to make room for more Warriors.

Thoughts?

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, misthv said:

Anyone got their books yet? Still waiting for mine 🙂 I’m currently trying out a few ideas for 1000p lists, but come up short! Without having read any of the Battalions, Comman abilities, Artifacts etc. I was looking into something:

- Chaos Lord on Karkadrak, 250p

- Daemon Prince, 210p

- 10 Chaos Warriors, 200p

- 5 Chaos Knights, 180p

- 20 Marauders, 150p 

Might be too heavy on characters. I like idea of running more elite list, and I actually only have Bloodreavers (32mm) to proxy for Marauders—so any ideas are welcome 🙂 Might change Daemon Prince for Chaos Sorcerer to make room for more Warriors.

Thoughts?

The Karkadrak is way too expensive to run in 1k points; especially if you’re only using 5 Knights.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Sinfullyvannila

[CJPT]

Hi all! I've just been building the new warriors, and the major difference from the old warriors is the heads - they're quite a lot smaller, which makes the model as a whole look bulkier and more imposing even though it's about the same size. Here's a side-by-side comparison (forgive the bad photo, part-primed bits, and messy desk!)

However, the new warrior sprue has 17 heads on it when you factor in all of the bare head variants. Swapping in one of the new heads onto an old body seems to help tie them fit in among the new sculpts.

 

[GeneralZero]

I was afraid it'd be worse than this! I think they fit well together, especially when mixed and scattered on the battlefield. No worry here, then. 👍

[Blisterfeet]

3 hours ago, misthv said:

Anyone got their books yet? Still waiting for mine 🙂 I’m currently trying out a few ideas for 1000p lists, but come up short! Without having read any of the Battalions, Comman abilities, Artifacts etc. I was looking into something:

- Chaos Lord on Karkadrak, 250p

- Daemon Prince, 210p

- 10 Chaos Warriors, 200p

- 5 Chaos Knights, 180p

- 20 Marauders, 150p 

Might be too heavy on characters. I like idea of running more elite list, and I actually only have Bloodreavers (32mm) to proxy for Marauders—so any ideas are welcome 🙂 Might change Daemon Prince for Chaos Sorcerer to make room for more Warriors.

Thoughts?

I have my book and it's as awesome lore wise etc and I had hoped for.

Ignore the negativity from some users I think STD will be a solid adaptable choice in the upcoming meta. 

I would agree with @Sinfullyvannila and say while the new model is nice I would want to maximise my cavalry units from a look at the book.

Maybe run a chaos lord on foot and a chaos sorcerer and have the DP as general spread your threats etc. 1000 points from my experience is about board presence, if you run an elite army you need a crippling hammer from people running swaves of units. 

[Blisterfeet]

20 minutes ago, CJPT said:

Hi all! I've just been building the new warriors, and the major difference from the old warriors is the heads - they're quite a lot smaller, which makes the model as a whole look bulkier and more imposing even though it's about the same size. Here's a side-by-side comparison (forgive the bad photo, part-primed bits, and messy desk!)

However, the new warrior sprue has 17 heads on it when you factor in all of the bare head variants. Swapping in one of the new heads onto an old body seems to help tie them fit in among the new sculpts.

 

That's some super helpful info for tying in my old with the new, big thumbs up!