AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion

[Mikelomba]

What about the 320pts war mammoth

[Smooth criminal]

11 minutes ago, Skavelynn said:

Be'lakor and daemon princes are too expensive to be worth taking in my opinion 😕, their damage is not much on average and while Be'lakor has a very good ability, it's not even guaranteed. You'd be spending 240 points on a 66% chance once per battle ability. I think a nurgle daemon prince is the only potentially good daemon prince option, but if the nurgle command ability gets errata'd I'm not sure if it will even be worth the points to take a daemon prince, their other CA's aren't that great.

I think Daemon princes are required in matchups where you need to snipe heroes to win. With their strike first they can kill heroes before they pulls off combat phase buffs. You either play them or play several sorcs and kick endless spell around.

[Smooth criminal]

11 minutes ago, Skavelynn said:

Be'lakor and daemon princes are too expensive to be worth taking in my opinion 😕, their damage is not much on average and while Be'lakor has a very good ability, it's not even guaranteed. You'd be spending 240 points on a 66% chance once per battle ability. I think a nurgle daemon prince is the only potentially good daemon prince option, but if the nurgle command ability gets errata'd I'm not sure if it will even be worth the points to take a daemon prince, their other CA's aren't that great.

I think Daemon princes are required in matchups where you need to snipe heroes to win. With their strike first they can kill heroes before they pulls off combat phase buffs. You either play them or play several sorcs and kick endless spell around.

[Asamu]

11 minutes ago, Skavelynn said:

You'd be spending 240 points on a 66% chance once per battle ability.

The roll is for each thing they try to do with the unit, and each separate spell cast/weapon is a separate trigger. IE: Archaon has 4 weapon profiles, which means 4 separate rolls. Every time Nagash tries to cast a spell, he has to roll. Odds are very high that it really screws them over for some things; it's not a 1/3 chance to do nothing at all.

Also Be'lakor can cast/dispel 2 spells, and his unique spell (-1 to wound rolls for the target) is good and on a low cast value, and he ignores rend baseline. At 240 points, he's pretty reasonable. In despoilers, he's getting d3 wounds back on a 4+ in each of your hero phases as well. The Khorne Daemon prince I think is harder to slot in, since it doesn't have magic and you really don't have the points to spare, but you'll probably see it in most despoiler lists that aren't doing the nurgle daemon prince command ability stacking cheese.

11 minutes ago, Skavelynn said:

Iron Golems could be good, have to keep in mind that warriors have access to more buffs and marks though. They can become far more tanky than iron golems, but having more models and being cheaper is a big plus for the golems. 

Eh, yeah, but there are better targets for all of the buffs. If you're just using them to screen in small units, you don't care about the offensive buffs they can get, and they don't get all that much defensively + it makes the space they can cover matter even more. In big units, warriors just start taking up too many points unless you're building the entire army around them, and even then, you're probably better off going with something else.

2 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Do you? Isn't the warscroll abilities of Blues/Brimstones independent of the Fate Points summoning of Tzeentch? It's been a while since I looked, but I can't think of anything that says they won't be able to either split into Blues or apply mortal wounds on death. 

The summoning part of it is in the allegiance abilities now.

"If a friendly Pink Horror model is slain, you can either take petty vengeance or receive 2 Blue Horror Points. If you take petty vengeance, pick an enemy unit within 9" of the slain Pink Horror and roll a dice. On a 6+ that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound. Any Blue Horror Points you receive can be used instead of or as well as Fate Points when you summon a Blue Horrors unit to the battlefield." In the Tzeentch Errata. - you can't use fate points unless you're playing a tzeentch allegiance, because Tzeentch summoning is a battle trait.

You can do the petty vengeance option though.

[Cauthon]

If I take Be’lakor in a tzeentch army do I get to give him the infusion arcanum spell?

 

 Would i be able to give him a spell out of his s2d book if he’s an ally in a disciples list?

 

thanks!

 

[Midjithero]

21 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

If I take Be’lakor in a tzeentch army do I get to give him the infusion arcanum spell?

 

 Would i be able to give him a spell out of his s2d book if he’s an ally in a disciples list?

 

thanks!

 

Infused Arcanum in a Disciples if Tzeentch army, NO (edit: sorry, didn’t realize Be’Lakota wasn’t able to take a mark...he looks to have Undivided, so if that’s the case, and only Tzeentch wizards can take Infused Arcanum, then no...or at least I’m sure it’s a no)

spell from S2D book in a Disciples if Tzeentch army, NO.

Spell from the S2D book in a S2D army, where all the units are marked with Tzeentch, YES.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Midjithero

[FERRUMITE]

Only complaint I have so far with this revamp is that Daemon Princes cant take the Undivided mark. I feel that's kind of really lame

[Overread]

16 minutes ago, FERRUMITE said:

Only complaint I have so far with this revamp is that Daemon Princes cant take the Undivided mark. I feel that's kind of really lame

Lore wise it makes sense though. A demon prince is essentially a lord who has risen up high within the esteem of one of the patron Greater Demons or even one of the four Demon Lords. As a result they have been twisted by a specific aspect of chaos - be it Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh or Khorne. 

[Salt_merchant]

If i recall 

 

Be'lakor is unique in that hes the only daemon prince of chaos undivided 

[FERRUMITE]

46 minutes ago, Overread said:

Lore wise it makes sense though. A demon prince is essentially a lord who has risen up high within the esteem of one of the patron Greater Demons or even one of the four Demon Lords. As a result they have been twisted by a specific aspect of chaos - be it Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh or Khorne. 

 

24 minutes ago, Salt_merchant said:

If i recall 

 

Be'lakor is unique in that hes the only daemon prince of chaos undivided 

Eh, I just find it a bit restrictive on your own dudes personally. I mean, Lorgar and Perturabo from 40k are Undivided Daemon Princes. I always thought Be'Lakor was the FIRST daemon prince, and also happened to be Undivided , rather than being the ONLY Undivided.

[readercolin]

5 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

i think I would like to see some way to make chaos warriors work, maybe with support such as an undivided shrine backing them up, using great blades and possibly a slaanesh or nurgle hero behind them to boost damage numbers? A squad of 15 is still 30 wounds to chew through, and even units that do well on the charge would struggle trying to chew through them if their re-rolling save rolls and re-rolling to hit and to wound rolls?

I spent some time reviewing the math on chaos warriors earlier, and I think that if you back them up they can be decent.  A squad of 5 with sword and shield are... ok.  They end up dealing 4.8 wounds on average, which for 100 points isn't really worth writing home about, and each 5 after that adds another 4.4 wounds.  However, backing them up with either a sorcerer lord or a chaos warshrine, you can bump that up to 8.7 for the first 5, and 7.9 for every 5 after that.  More interestingly, if you give them 2 hand weapons, and the mark of nurgle, you can get those exact same numbers with a 3+ save, making them extremely sturdy to clog up an area of the board.

If you are wanting to run a huge block though, you are going to want to run halberds for the ability to fight in two ranks.  Here an unbuffed halberd deals 3.6 wounds for the first 5, and 3.3 for every 5 after that.  Which is rather poor for 100 points per model.  However, buffing them with either the sorcerer or warshrine giving re-roll hits and wounds brings that up to 7.3 wounds for the first 5, and 6.6 for every 5 after that.

Overall, I think that they are fine for running in small squads as objective grabbers (take 5 of them here or there) or as battleline tax.  But if you are running them in big blocks, you are going to want to run with support.  I would consider running 15-20 with dual hand weapons with the mark of nurgle and the support of a nurgle warshrine, or with hand weapon + shield with a sorcerer or unmarked warshrine.  I would consider running a block of 30 with halberds + sorcerer and warshrine support as a hard anvil to base your list around.  But I would only look to run them either as units of 5, units of 15-20, or units of 30 with halberds.

[Sinfullyvannila]

55 minutes ago, readercolin said:

I spent some time reviewing the math on chaos warriors earlier, and I think that if you back them up they can be decent.  A squad of 5 with sword and shield are... ok.  They end up dealing 4.8 wounds on average, which for 100 points isn't really worth writing home about, and each 5 after that adds another 4.4 wounds.  However, backing them up with either a sorcerer lord or a chaos warshrine, you can bump that up to 8.7 for the first 5, and 7.9 for every 5 after that.  More interestingly, if you give them 2 hand weapons, and the mark of nurgle, you can get those exact same numbers with a 3+ save, making them extremely sturdy to clog up an area of the board.

If you are wanting to run a huge block though, you are going to want to run halberds for the ability to fight in two ranks.  Here an unbuffed halberd deals 3.6 wounds for the first 5, and 3.3 for every 5 after that.  Which is rather poor for 100 points per model.  However, buffing them with either the sorcerer or warshrine giving re-roll hits and wounds brings that up to 7.3 wounds for the first 5, and 6.6 for every 5 after that.

Overall, I think that they are fine for running in small squads as objective grabbers (take 5 of them here or there) or as battleline tax.  But if you are running them in big blocks, you are going to want to run with support.  I would consider running 15-20 with dual hand weapons with the mark of nurgle and the support of a nurgle warshrine, or with hand weapon + shield with a sorcerer or unmarked warshrine.  I would consider running a block of 30 with halberds + sorcerer and warshrine support as a hard anvil to base your list around.  But I would only look to run them either as units of 5, units of 15-20, or units of 30 with halberds.

You should be able to run them with mixed weapons now.

 

“Each armed with one of the following weapon options”

 

contrast with Ogor Gluttons

 

“The unit is armed with Gulping Bite and one of the following weapon options”

[Agent of Chaos]

I cannot see mixed weapon options being the intention of the rule. Its classic inconsistent/ambiguous rules wording from GW and very likely to be clarified by FAQ/errata as there is no other unit in the game that can mix weapons, apart from the occasional 1/5 or 1/10 etc can have a special weapon. 

[Freejack02]

32 minutes ago, Agent of Chaos said:

as there is no other unit in the game that can mix weapons

Tzaangors and Kairic Acolytes can, just off the top of my head... there are probably several others. It's not a new or even powerful mechanic honestly. 

[Agent of Chaos]

And playing against those units can be tedious as you have to work out which model has which weapon and roll accordingly. It was simplified for Iron Jaws so seems strange to do it for chaos warriors when they didnt have it previously. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

56 minutes ago, Agent of Chaos said:

And playing against those units can be tedious as you have to work out which model has which weapon and roll accordingly. It was simplified for Iron Jaws so seems strange to do it for chaos warriors when they didnt have it previously. 

The ones in the back will have the halberds.

 

My guess is that it’s because of the atypical number of units and weapons you get in the kits, which they’re keeping (16 warriors in the kits, 10 special weapons in the upgrade packs. Meaning you’ll have 2 spare for each unit of 10). Also I’m guessing that’s why they nerfed the 30 blob; because now it’s like 15-20/15-10 Great Weapons or Duallies - Halberds.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Sinfullyvannila

[Agent of Chaos]

Wait for the FAQ/Errata I guess...

[Asamu]

1 hour ago, Agent of Chaos said:

I cannot see mixed weapon options being the intention of the rule. Its classic inconsistent/ambiguous rules wording from GW and very likely to be clarified by FAQ/errata as there is no other unit in the game that can mix weapons, apart from the occasional 1/5 or 1/10 etc can have a special weapon. 

They ran them with mixed weapons in the game played on the WHTV stream, and Varanguard, which have always been able to run mixed equipment, have the exact same wording, so I'd say the intent is actually pretty clear in the other direction, and the wording in this case is actually not ambiguous.

All of the slaves to darkness units with multiple weapon options that can be taken in units have this exact same wording, so the same applies to knights and marauders.

As far as it slowing the game down... Only if you run great weapons for some models and have different rend profiles (which, due to the prevalence of hit/wound re-rolls, is probably optimal for large units, but really isn't a big deal otherwise), or if you're unwilling to roll multiple colors of dice, though even if you are running mixed weapons and rolling them all one at a time, it's not going to slow the game that much; a couple of extra rolls each combat phase isn't that big a deal from a low model/unit count army. If you're willing to roll 2 colors of dice at the same time to represent the different weapon profiles, and have the opponent roll their saves with the same dice, it doesn't slow things down at all.

[Kramer]

19 hours ago, ArcaneLore74 said:

loving the marauder buff but don't like the models - ideas for conversions or proxies please - what about using the 25mm chaff units from the newer warcry warbands as marauders and rebasing some of the 28mm and 32mm to 25mm?

I wouldn't go the Warcry rout myself personally as those models have rules in the army. Or you need to heavily convert them. But yeah they do work definitely. 

Reavers, Arcanites seem the easiest choices to convert in my mind. What about the Cawdor gang? More cultist than Marauder maybe. 

[Dracan]

Quick question about the plague touched battalion. Or any of the god ones really.

Its says its for both s2d and "insert god here" alliance. It requires mortal god units.

Does this mean... i can take 7 blightking units and 1 harbinger and take them in the battalion in slaves to darkness army and everyone gains s2d keyword???!!

Edited December 9, 2019 by Dracan

[Spears]

As someone without much knowledge of the other chaos books are there any standout buff models that might see a home in Std forces? Do most of slaanesh work of hedonites rather than slaanesh?

[Smooth criminal]

Bloodsecrator - +1 attack aura for khorne. Wrathmongers - same, but in lesser radius. They stack.

Harbinger - 5+ negate aura for nurgle units for CP.

Epitome - strike last for everyone in range on 4+.

Everything else is probably weaker than sorc's reroll or lord's fight again.

[JackStreicher]

12 hours ago, Asamu said:

So unless they charged in the same turn, they get the save re-rolls.

It works even if they charged since the rule only checks for „normal move“

[Satyrical Sophist]

50 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

Bloodsecrator - +1 attack aura for khorne. Wrathmongers - same, but in lesser radius. They stack.

Harbinger - 5+ negate aura for nurgle units for CP.

Epitome - strike last for everyone in range on 4+.

Everything else is probably weaker than sorc's reroll or lord's fight again.

There are some other Khorne buffs. 

Aspiring death bringer is another attack to all units in aura for a CP (Khorne mortals).

Blood stoker adds 3 to run and charge and reroll wounds to a Khorne mortal unit. 

Both are 80 point units 

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, Dracan said:

Quick question about the plague touched battalion. Or any of the god ones really.

Its says its for both s2d and "insert god here" alliance. It requires mortal god units.

Does this mean... i can take 7 blightking units and 1 harbinger and take them in the battalion in slaves to darkness army and everyone gains s2d keyword???!!

Know where I can see them?