AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness / Darkoath Discussion

[GeneralZero]

When I (re)read the news on the comunity, I'm not reassured for a battletome for my StD. I expected more for this army, not just some little points adjustments (BTW, I lve the unit of 3 chariots, I expect them to remains single after deployment).

Everchosen unchanged except 20 points drop for varanguard (which is pretty much no change).

[kenshin620]

The problem is that we have really no clue what the next BT would be. (other than the actual official Sylvaneth release!)

 

As a reminder Beasts of Chaos was the first post GHB 2018 BT, which still had the Brayherd Allegiance.

[cplhicks]

No changes to the Chaos Warriors cost. Ugggh I love these guys but they are too damn expensive.   The only changes was the two mentioned in the Warhammer community article.  

 

[Roark]

Would have been nice for the Sorcerer Lord to get a discount... Still have no idea why he's costed thus.

[GeneralZero]

Seeing no changes and seeing that we are LAST here (the worst army):

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-2-2-final-stats-13th-june-2019/

that doesn't give me any hope.

Maybe no change means battletome soon? (we can interpret in both directions through).

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, Roark said:

Would have been nice for the Sorcerer Lord to get a discount... Still have no idea why he's costed thus.

I mean he's still a pretty great support unit, a rare one that can help any unit. Though yea I think 130-140 would be more fair, along with a 4+ armor save.

 Imo that is one army wise thing that would help slaves, is more armor matching that of SCE (sans Darkoath for obvious reasons...)

Edited June 15, 2019 by kenshin620

[Charleston]

Actually like 60% of our Units need a reduction.

My "Wishlisting" would look like this:
Chaos Lord - 120
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount - is fine, 140
Chaos Lord on Manticore - 230
Chaos Sorcerer Lord - 130
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore - 200
Daemon Prince - is fine
Exalted Hero - 60 pt

Chaos Warriors - 80/440
Chaos Knights - 150
Marauders and Chariots- according to the new adjustments
Chaos Chosen - 140 is quite ok I guess
Warshringe - 160 is ok, too

All 3 Battalions could get like 30-50 pts cheaper.

I am curious what GW will do with the StD within the Darkoath-Book. We can assume a Skaven/BEast of Chaos alike shared Army for several Alligiences, therefore Everchosen and Darkoath will have their own abilities loose from Slaves.

The current Slaves Alligience is all about heroes killing heroes and monsters to go for the eye of gods, and minor buffs to our basic units with the marks and auras. Basically it looks like the set up for an army which utilizes great beatstick heroes to slam our enemies heroes/centerpieces and a passive buff system which bases on marks. The tought is great, just the way gw did it is awfull.

How could one do it better? Well, that ain´t so hard at all! WISHLISTING BELOW!
 

Spoiler

 

EYE OF THE GODS

The current warscrolls give us plently of beatsticks, with Lords having minor support and sorcerer lords having a major support role. So the core ain´t bad at all. The Lord on Manticore buffs our Warriors with a neat bunch of rerolls. Thats grat. Also Lord on Mount supports our Knights and Chariots, which is good synnergy and also fluffy. The same for Sorcerer Lords: Great buffing capabilties on the normal/mounted! The one on Manticore looks like it wants to be an offensive caster, which it could be with a buff to the manticore.

So changing the heroes Warscroll would be enough in terms of giving the Manticore a better profile (Claws to DMG 2 should be enough. Or give the tail some "venom" rule for MW´s. Maybe by turning it into a degrading moonblade with D3 MW on a degrading roll).

The bigger issue is the reward mechanic imbued into "Eye of the Gods". It is not enough of a reward for what it requires. An StD Armies should be able to build around there rewards to play for them and to utilize them in a way that gives us the game changing advantage. There are two easy ways this could be achived that come to my mind right now:

1. Less rewards, but the player decides which he wants to pick.
2. Rewards that apply to the whole army and not just the slayer.

An example for the first version: Keep the goodstuff, like adding +1 to saves or damage or rend. Remove Dark Aposthesis. Let players choose each reward only once per battle. Include Spawndom nevertheless for fluff reasons. Change the current table from "1-3 Spawndom 4-6 Daemon Prince" into "2+ Daemon prince, 1 Spawndom". By this the "egoistic" part, chasing for might, becoms at least valuable enough so we can try to win a game with it. Ambush your enemy with 2-3 Heroes and roll who may get better. It would be a way to compensate missing summoning by being able to buff our heroes. GW would sell tons of DP models btw.

For the second idea we could get a chart which includes armywide rules. Like giving the whole army a +1 to hit for the turn, debuffing enemy morale by one, getting a bonus to casts, gaining a "fight first" chance on a roll etc.. Theese rules could be worth fishing for them to buff all Slaves. While this suggestion looks quite OP at the first glance, the fact that we have to chase enemy heroes down to get them is a quite serious drawback. Also, the table could be split into 5 a 3 rewards, one for each god and one "undecided". This way players would keep the direction of their army whilst still going for a random reward. Also this would be a great way to dampen its power as f.e. KHORNE BUFFS could also only apply on KHORNE Units.

Both suggestions could be implented in many different ways.

AURA OF CHAOS

The second ability that defines the Slaves to Darkness is their divine patrons gift. The current way gw has written these rules is just a joke: Reroll ones if you are within the holy X inch. X depends on fluff and not on how good the buff actually is. Also all buffs are useless. Just make the buffs better. At this point, gw really shouldn´t be afraid to give some great rules to us, like:

• Nurgle: Each NURGLE unit (wholly?) within a NURGLE HERO gains the "Disgustingly Resilient" rule
• Slaanesh: -1 to Hit against a SLAANESH unit (wholly?) within a SLAANESH HERO
• Tzeentch: Ignore all modifiers to save rolls (positive and negative) for TZEENTCH UNITS (wholly?) within TZEENTCH HEROES.
• Khorne: Increase the attack characteristic of each KHORNE UNIT (wholly?) within of 8" of an KHORNE HERO
• Unmarked: UNMARKED CHAOS Units within of X inch an UNMARKED CHAOS HERO automaticaly pass battleshock tests

While some of this suggestions sound OP, especially with my suggestions to "EYE OF THE GODS", you have to concider that each unit can only benefit from one of the gods. You can easily mix units of different patrons, but still have a tax by the fact that you require a hero to trigger them. Thoose Rules would alter each warscroll in a fluffy way, giving us a ton of options. And yes, I know, the KEYWORDS I used are not optimal but hey, this is just wishlisting! The point behind it is: Whilst our heroes are out for killing and glory, their presence inspires our warriors. By this the army can have a heavier focus on beatstick heroes which they couldn´t handle otherwise.

ARTIFACTS, COMMAND TRAITS AND SPELL LORES

With the suggested rules, a few opportunities for new artifacts occur. I belive that including 1-3 god specific options would add a great flair. Like having 1-3 Khorne Artifacts, 1-3 Tzeentch Ones and so on. This way army building would be even more diverse. Unmarked options would have also a pretty nice new flair: currently existing "Mark of the all-flavoured" would be great as enabler for a multi god army: Snap it on your hero and let him become a buff-beacon. The design of the artifact rules should be a bit more aggresive: Great upsides combined with some drawbacks would go well with the theme of warriors that would do anything for power. Desecrator Gauntlets are fluffwise an great example right now. How about an artifact that allows us to do more attacks but deals mortal wounds in exchange? Would be great to risk that life of a hero in the hope to get him into ascension via EYE OF THE GODS.

The Command Traits could also be used to support the theme: Increasing the range of all AURA OF CHAOS Abilities triggered by a Hero? Great! Offensive buffs allowing our general to get better into contact with enemies to land that killing blow? Great! Some neat abilities to decrease morale to show how terrific chaos warriors are? I´d love it! So many possibilities here!

For the Spells, I would love a full (6 Spells wide) unmarked chaos lore. Adding 1-3 Spells for each god, which may be copypasta from existing books, would be fine too. But having an actual lore of chaos would be a great thing. With daemonic strength-buffs, some big and bad magic to smite our enemies and so on.It´s currently one of the biggest thing that I miss: Some way to flesh out our magicans. This could also include the (obligatory) Endless Spells. Give us something as half as cool as the Beast of Chaos Spells and I´m all in!

 

 

[fjaoief]

So with the new point drop I decide to make a mad max std army.

Chaos lord on mount

4 chaos chariot

4 gorebeast chariot

2 marauder horsemen

5 chaos knights

Ruinbringer warband

For now its 2020 pt but next week its  going  to be 2000.

Once the battalion ability activated, my army will  make 16 d3 mortal damage across the board, which is on average 32 mortal damage.

 

 

[Charleston]

15 hours ago, fjaoief said:

So with the new point drop I decide to make a mad max std army.

Chaos lord on mount

4 chaos chariot

4 gorebeast chariot

2 marauder horsemen

5 chaos knights

Ruinbringer warband

For now its 2020 pt but next week its  going  to be 2000.

Once the battalion ability activated, my army will  make 16 d3 mortal damage across the board, which is on average 32 mortal damage.

 

 

Looks nice and I am quite curious how it will work on the table. There are some things that yet do not look quite right to me:
-Chariots are 1-3 not for matched play from what I saw. I wouldn´t wonder if Gorebeast ones were the same.
-A Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Mount is always a good addition. The rerolls from Daemonic Might are great, the free Arcane Shield also never hurts.
-I would concider more Knights.

What Marks do you want to use? Khorne would be great for  the Bloodstroker buff. 3 Gorebeast Chariots with a Stroker-Buff could really be insane!

All in all it looks like a nice theme army! I would love to see some batreps

[jazman84]

Any changes to Daemon Prince?

[fjaoief]

11 hours ago, Charleston said:

Looks nice and I am quite curious how it will work on the table. There are some things that yet do not look quite right to me:
-Chariots are 1-3 not for matched play from what I saw. I wouldn´t wonder if Gorebeast ones were the same.
-A Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Mount is always a good addition. The rerolls from Daemonic Might are great, the free Arcane Shield also never hurts.
-I would concider more Knights.

What Marks do you want to use? Khorne would be great for  the Bloodstroker buff. 3 Gorebeast Chariots with a Stroker-Buff could really be insane!

All in all it looks like a nice theme army! I would love to see some batreps

U

I mean, 4 units of chaos chariot, each is a single model, gorebeast also, and 5 units of chaos knights, 5 model each, marauder horsemen the same. 

Since i seperate my units as small  as possible chaos power is not quite efficient magic I seek.

I will let them all take tzeentch mark since the range of tzeentch mark buff increased to 9 inch and chaos lord on mount can reroll ALL failed save rolls.

[GeneralZero]

8 hours ago, jazman84 said:

Any changes to Daemon Prince?

No. Unchanged.

[Kurrilino]

On 6/15/2019 at 2:58 PM, Charleston said:

  Hide contents

 

EYE OF THE GODS

The current warscrolls give us plently of beatsticks, with Lords having minor support and sorcerer lords having a major support role. So the core ain´t bad at all. The Lord on Manticore buffs our Warriors with a neat bunch of rerolls. Thats grat. Also Lord on Mount supports our Knights and Chariots, which is good synnergy and also fluffy. The same for Sorcerer Lords: Great buffing capabilties on the normal/mounted! The one on Manticore looks like it wants to be an offensive caster, which it could be with a buff to the manticore.

So changing the heroes Warscroll would be enough in terms of giving the Manticore a better profile (Claws to DMG 2 should be enough. Or give the tail some "venom" rule for MW´s. Maybe by turning it into a degrading moonblade with D3 MW on a degrading roll).

The bigger issue is the reward mechanic imbued into "Eye of the Gods". It is not enough of a reward for what it requires. An StD Armies should be able to build around there rewards to play for them and to utilize them in a way that gives us the game changing advantage. There are two easy ways this could be achived that come to my mind right now:

1. Less rewards, but the player decides which he wants to pick.
2. Rewards that apply to the whole army and not just the slayer.

An example for the first version: Keep the goodstuff, like adding +1 to saves or damage or rend. Remove Dark Aposthesis. Let players choose each reward only once per battle. Include Spawndom nevertheless for fluff reasons. Change the current table from "1-3 Spawndom 4-6 Daemon Prince" into "2+ Daemon prince, 1 Spawndom". By this the "egoistic" part, chasing for might, becoms at least valuable enough so we can try to win a game with it. Ambush your enemy with 2-3 Heroes and roll who may get better. It would be a way to compensate missing summoning by being able to buff our heroes. GW would sell tons of DP models btw.

For the second idea we could get a chart which includes armywide rules. Like giving the whole army a +1 to hit for the turn, debuffing enemy morale by one, getting a bonus to casts, gaining a "fight first" chance on a roll etc.. Theese rules could be worth fishing for them to buff all Slaves. While this suggestion looks quite OP at the first glance, the fact that we have to chase enemy heroes down to get them is a quite serious drawback. Also, the table could be split into 5 a 3 rewards, one for each god and one "undecided". This way players would keep the direction of their army whilst still going for a random reward. Also this would be a great way to dampen its power as f.e. KHORNE BUFFS could also only apply on KHORNE Units.

Both suggestions could be implented in many different ways.

AURA OF CHAOS

The second ability that defines the Slaves to Darkness is their divine patrons gift. The current way gw has written these rules is just a joke: Reroll ones if you are within the holy X inch. X depends on fluff and not on how good the buff actually is. Also all buffs are useless. Just make the buffs better. At this point, gw really shouldn´t be afraid to give some great rules to us, like:

• Nurgle: Each NURGLE unit (wholly?) within a NURGLE HERO gains the "Disgustingly Resilient" rule
• Slaanesh: -1 to Hit against a SLAANESH unit (wholly?) within a SLAANESH HERO
• Tzeentch: Ignore all modifiers to save rolls (positive and negative) for TZEENTCH UNITS (wholly?) within TZEENTCH HEROES.
• Khorne: Increase the attack characteristic of each KHORNE UNIT (wholly?) within of 8" of an KHORNE HERO
• Unmarked: UNMARKED CHAOS Units within of X inch an UNMARKED CHAOS HERO automaticaly pass battleshock tests

While some of this suggestions sound OP, especially with my suggestions to "EYE OF THE GODS", you have to concider that each unit can only benefit from one of the gods. You can easily mix units of different patrons, but still have a tax by the fact that you require a hero to trigger them. Thoose Rules would alter each warscroll in a fluffy way, giving us a ton of options. And yes, I know, the KEYWORDS I used are not optimal but hey, this is just wishlisting! The point behind it is: Whilst our heroes are out for killing and glory, their presence inspires our warriors. By this the army can have a heavier focus on beatstick heroes which they couldn´t handle otherwise.

ARTIFACTS, COMMAND TRAITS AND SPELL LORES

With the suggested rules, a few opportunities for new artifacts occur. I belive that including 1-3 god specific options would add a great flair. Like having 1-3 Khorne Artifacts, 1-3 Tzeentch Ones and so on. This way army building would be even more diverse. Unmarked options would have also a pretty nice new flair: currently existing "Mark of the all-flavoured" would be great as enabler for a multi god army: Snap it on your hero and let him become a buff-beacon. The design of the artifact rules should be a bit more aggresive: Great upsides combined with some drawbacks would go well with the theme of warriors that would do anything for power. Desecrator Gauntlets are fluffwise an great example right now. How about an artifact that allows us to do more attacks but deals mortal wounds in exchange? Would be great to risk that life of a hero in the hope to get him into ascension via EYE OF THE GODS.

The Command Traits could also be used to support the theme: Increasing the range of all AURA OF CHAOS Abilities triggered by a Hero? Great! Offensive buffs allowing our general to get better into contact with enemies to land that killing blow? Great! Some neat abilities to decrease morale to show how terrific chaos warriors are? I´d love it! So many possibilities here!

For the Spells, I would love a full (6 Spells wide) unmarked chaos lore. Adding 1-3 Spells for each god, which may be copypasta from existing books, would be fine too. But having an actual lore of chaos would be a great thing. With daemonic strength-buffs, some big and bad magic to smite our enemies and so on.It´s currently one of the biggest thing that I miss: Some way to flesh out our magicans. This could also include the (obligatory) Endless Spells. Give us something as half as cool as the Beast of Chaos Spells and I´m all in! 

 

Dude, our StD have been unplayable for 4 years.

Don't change that. Do you really wanna see us having fun?

I thought so.

[Charleston]

22 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Dude, our StD have been unplayable for 4 years.

Don't change that. Do you really wanna see us having fun?

I thought so.

Some people just want to see the world burn. I tought that is a common view among us chaos players

[Kramer]

On 6/15/2019 at 1:48 PM, Roark said:

Would have been nice for the Sorcerer Lord to get a discount... Still have no idea why he's costed thus.

Because he is awesome and saves you two cp a turn with the new command abilities.  

[fjaoief]

On 6/18/2019 at 6:03 AM, Kramer said:

Because he is awesome and saves you two cp a turn with the new command abilities.  

problem is he is still high priced as 160 points, just compare him with other 160 points units. A rerolling 1s totem equal to points of a demon prince makes no sense. and ridiculously, dismount version and mounted version both cost 160 points- so mounted version totally out perform on foot one, but GW only sell on foot version and almost every player conversion it.

[Infernalslayer]

44 minutes ago, fjaoief said:

problem is he is still high priced as 160 points, just compare him with other 160 points units. A rerolling 1s totem equal to points of a demon prince makes no sense. and ridiculously, dismount version and mounted version both cost 160 points- so mounted version totally out perform on foot one, but GW only sell on foot version and almost every player conversion it.

It will get even better..

When GW gets around to releasing a battletome for Slaves to Darkness, they will delete  every warscroll that doesn't correspond to a miniature they still sell.

So the Chaos Sorcerer Lord will lose the mount option when the update comes, like the Necromancer did in the Legions of Nagash book, and everyone who converted their model on horse is going to own another model that will be invalid for matched play games.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, fjaoief said:

problem is he is still high priced as 160 points, just compare him with other 160 points units. A rerolling 1s totem equal to points of a demon prince makes no sense. and ridiculously, dismount version and mounted version both cost 160 points- so mounted version totally out perform on foot one, but GW only sell on foot version and almost every player conversion it.

I agree with the mounted vs dismounted thing. But the way they've been fixing that in facitons when they get to them is by making it two warscrolls. And if they do we'll either get a new mounted model or lose the option so just enjoy it while it lasts. 

Secondly 2CP per turn! Let me capslock that: 2CP PER TURN! That's a 100pts saved per turn. After two turns you're 40 pts up. And that's without taking into account his spell actually does two Command abilities in one! So arguably if you get your spell off and the ability off it equals doing 3 command abilities. Of which only the re-roll 1's to hit is occasionally wasted but the save re-roll is always helpful. 

So either you focus on the fact that you get a free horse if your willing to convert a model or you value it for what it does and only for the command points you save it's worth it. (And we haven't mentioned it's dispel nor it's value as a hero/wizard in scenarios)

As to your comparison the daemon prince adds value for 160 points, but they do such different things I don't really see the comparison except that you could take one instead of the other. What will add most value to you of course might differ, but I just know my opponents target him first for a reason (although I haven't played with the new Slaanesh rules yet so the priorities might have changed)

Edited June 19, 2019 by Kramer

[fjaoief]

3 hours ago, Kramer said:

I agree with the mounted vs dismounted thing. But the way they've been fixing that in facitons when they get to them is by making it two warscrolls. And if they do we'll either get a new mounted model or lose the option so just enjoy it while it lasts. 

Secondly 2CP per turn! Let me capslock that: 2CP PER TURN! That's a 100pts saved per turn. After two turns you're 40 pts up. And that's without taking into account his spell actually does two Command abilities in one! So arguably if you get your spell off and the ability off it equals doing 3 command abilities. Of which only the re-roll 1's to hit is occasionally wasted but the save re-roll is always helpful. 

So either you focus on the fact that you get a free horse if your willing to convert a model or you value it for what it does and only for the command points you save it's worth it. (And we haven't mentioned it's dispel nor it's value as a hero/wizard in scenarios)

As to your comparison the daemon prince adds value for 160 points, but they do such different things I don't really see the comparison except that you could take one instead of the other. What will add most value to you of course might differ, but I just know my opponents target him first for a reason (although I haven't played with the new Slaanesh rules yet so the priorities might have changed)

you are right I shouldnt compare him with demon prince, they are not playing the same role.  Also 2CP per turn sounds meaty, but also remind that it is 2 cp for general command abilities which are meh, not so suck but kind of disappointing. I don't agree with chaos sorcerer's ability = give you 2 free command points per round.

 Also rules wise std allegiance ability already grants you huge numbers of rerolling 1s. But no one will count it as giving std players X command points. CP is CP because it is alternative to choose from plenty of command ability. A solid rerolling 1s buff to a unit is NOT equal to CP.

 Other heroes who do similar jobs provides more themed and faction-specialized bonus, so that their armies can do better at certain aspects. Some of them even grants a Area of Effect that effect all units in a certain range, and most of them cost 100~140 points, while Sorcerer lord  chooses 1 unit and costs 160 points. chaos sorcerer lord a good utilization tool but not so worthy of 160 points. there is no synergy in him.  If a std player want a wizard then just ally from tzeentch or a priest from khorne, nurgle is also great.

Also people focus fire on Sorcerser lord not because they are strong unit, In fact it is opposite. Sorcerer Lord have so poor save property as a 160 points hero and  usually in a std army sorcerer lord is the only wizard, and killing him would make opponents magic automatically unbinded. For a KO army it is just "no pain but gain" bargain.

So let us compare him with someone else plays the same role, forgive me I couldn't find any other 160-points buffing heroes because they are all cheaper than sorcerer lord:

1. bloodsecrator

bloodsecrator is even cheaper which is 140. the buff effect is even better, +1 attack to khorne units, compared with rerolling 1s to 1 unit and need to cast the spell first and it has a chance of dispelled, and fights far more better than sorcerer lord. If 3 units in range, including himself, does it means he gives you 4 CPs? 

2.  lord relictor

this guy can do more jobs with 100 points. and also fights better.

3.  lord castellant

add 1 to save rolls. 100 points. fights better.

4. knight-vexillor

reroll charge rolls. 100 points. fights better.

5.  spirit torment

140 points. rerolling 1s to hit to every unit in a bubble, and reviving models in a unit. Still if 5 units are in range, does it count as giving 5 CPs?  totally outperform chaos sorcerer and no risk of cast failure & unbinding. Also an expert of fighting. and  ethereal and flying?

6.  butcher

140 points. his warscroll is longest of 140  points heroes. Stronger than any of above including chaos sorcerer.

7.  warshrine

the same points. 6++ save to all units in a bubble. praying effects totally outperform sorcerer lord. fight like a behemoth. warshrine is so good that some other chaos army will take it. 

So my point is that chaos sorcerer lord seems like giving 2 CP each turn, but actually does not.  generally all other heroes have similar jobs also have good impacts as chaos sorcerer lord and even cheaper and stronger. Also std allegiance ability itself overlaps with him.

With GHB 2019 changed only marauder horsemen and chaos chariot point, and a little change in chaos aura range, there are going to be less space for chaos sorcerer lord.

Edited June 19, 2019 by fjaoief

[Kramer]

5 hours ago, fjaoief said:

you are right I shouldnt compare him with demon prince, they are not playing the same role.  Also 2CP per turn sounds meaty, but also remind that it is 2 cp for general command abilities which are meh, not so suck but kind of disappointing. I don't agree with chaos sorcerer's ability = give you 2 free command points per round.

 Also rules wise std allegiance ability already grants you huge numbers of rerolling 1s. But no one will count it as giving std players X command points. CP is CP because it is alternative to choose from plenty of command ability. A solid rerolling 1s buff to a unit is NOT equal to CP.

 Other heroes who do similar jobs provides more themed and faction-specialized bonus, so that their armies can do better at certain aspects. Some of them even grants a Area of Effect that effect all units in a certain range, and most of them cost 100~140 points, while Sorcerer lord  chooses 1 unit and costs 160 points. chaos sorcerer lord a good utilization tool but not so worthy of 160 points. there is no synergy in him.  If a std player want a wizard then just ally from tzeentch or a priest from khorne, nurgle is also great.

Also people focus fire on Sorcerser lord not because they are strong unit, In fact it is opposite. Sorcerer Lord have so poor save property as a 160 points hero and  usually in a std army sorcerer lord is the only wizard, and killing him would make opponents magic automatically unbinded. For a KO army it is just "no pain but gain" bargain.

So let us compare him with someone else plays the same role, forgive me I couldn't find any other 160-points buffing heroes because they are all cheaper than sorcerer lord:

1. bloodsecrator

bloodsecrator is even cheaper which is 140. the buff effect is even better, +1 attack to khorne units, compared with rerolling 1s to 1 unit and need to cast the spell first and it has a chance of dispelled, and fights far more better than sorcerer lord. If 3 units in range, including himself, does it means he gives you 4 CPs? 

2.  lord relictor

this guy can do more jobs with 100 points. and also fights better.

3.  lord castellant

add 1 to save rolls. 100 points. fights better.

4. knight-vexillor

reroll charge rolls. 100 points. fights better.

5.  spirit torment

140 points. rerolling 1s to hit to every unit in a bubble, and reviving models in a unit. Still if 5 units are in range, does it count as giving 5 CPs?  totally outperform chaos sorcerer and no risk of cast failure & unbinding. Also an expert of fighting. and  ethereal and flying?

6.  butcher

140 points. his warscroll is longest of 140  points heroes. Stronger than any of above including chaos sorcerer.

7.  warshrine

the same points. 6++ save to all units in a bubble. praying effects totally outperform sorcerer lord. fight like a behemoth. warshrine is so good that some other chaos army will take it. 

So my point is that chaos sorcerer lord seems like giving 2 CP each turn, but actually does not.  generally all other heroes have similar jobs also have good impacts as chaos sorcerer lord and even cheaper and stronger. Also std allegiance ability itself overlaps with him.

With GHB 2019 changed only marauder horsemen and chaos chariot point, and a little change in chaos aura range, there are going to be less space for chaos sorcerer lord.

We’re not going to convince each other. You want it to be equal or better than other hero’s you judge to be in the same role. But to me it’s already there. Looking at that whole list I would only take the bloodsecrator before the chaos sorcerer.

The warshtine  range  makes me dislike it the times I played it. The butcher is great but i only take two because of the cauldron ability which is a roll of the dice for a bonus. Definitely not better than than the sorcerer. All the stormcast heroes add there most value through the allegiance abilities, so arguably add more value. Not because of the scroll. Give the sorcerer lord a 3+ teleport prayer In the allegiance abilities and it knocks them all out of the park. 

To make it very basic, you say the general command abilities are ‘meh’ I find re-rolls game changing and the sorcerer lets me buff two units a turn without spending command points. So for me easily worth 160Pts

[fjaoief]

8 minutes ago, Kramer said:

We’re not going to convince each other. You want it to be equal or better than other hero’s you judge to be in the same role. But to me it’s already there. Looking at that whole list I would only take the bloodsecrator before the chaos sorcerer.

The warshtine  range  makes me dislike it the times I played it. The butcher is great but i only take two because of the cauldron ability which is a roll of the dice for a bonus. Definitely not better than than the sorcerer. All the stormcast heroes add there most value through the allegiance abilities, so arguably add more value. Not because of the scroll. Give the sorcerer lord a 3+ teleport prayer In the allegiance abilities and it knocks them all out of the park. 

To make it very basic, you say the general command abilities are ‘meh’ I find re-rolls game changing and the sorcerer lets me buff two units a turn without spending command points. So for me easily worth 160Pts

but rerolling 1s command ability is already granted by std allegiance abilities.  also sorcerer lord's magic may be unbinded or cast failure. So if your army is tzeentch marked, rerolling 1s to save rolls ability is no use. and chances of failed/unbinded? 5+ save 5 wounds makes him poor in surviving, facing a shooty army then the sorcerer perhaps die in 2 turns. if he got charged then he hardly survive that combat phase.  going through all these but only rerolling 1s?  

and yes stormcast heroes add value through allegiance abilities, and doesn't it means they even perform better than paper when they are actually on board?  they have prayer but sorcerer lord not. sorcerer lord will never have a 3+ teleport prayer but others have couple of prayers to choose from, in addition to their warscrolls.

Lets just pay 40 more points to acquire a sorcerer lord on manticore. 40 points for a manticore is a good bargain.

also add 1 to rolls is usually better than rerolling 1s.  tactically make a 4+ save units 3+ save is better than 1 rerolls. just buffing 2 units every turn is not worthy for a 160 points unit. spirit torment or bloodsecrator obviously can buff more than 2 units with less points.

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, fjaoief said:

Spoiler

 

but rerolling 1s command ability is already granted by std allegiance abilities.  also sorcerer lord's magic may be unbinded or cast failure. So if your army is tzeentch marked, rerolling 1s to save rolls ability is no use. and chances of failed/unbinded? 5+ save 5 wounds makes him poor in surviving, facing a shooty army then the sorcerer perhaps die in 2 turns. if he got charged then he hardly survive that combat phase.  going through all these but only rerolling 1s?  

and yes stormcast heroes add value through allegiance abilities, and doesn't it means they even perform better than paper when they are actually on board?  they have prayer but sorcerer lord not. sorcerer lord will never have a 3+ teleport prayer but others have couple of prayers to choose from, in addition to their warscrolls.

Lets just pay 40 more points to acquire a sorcerer lord on manticore. 40 points for a manticore is a good bargain.

also add 1 to rolls is usually better than rerolling 1s.  tactically make a 4+ save units 3+ save is better than 1 rerolls. just buffing 2 units every turn is not worthy for a 160 points unit. spirit torment or bloodsecrator obviously can buff more than 2 units with less points.

 

 

And adding +2 to rolls is even better  We're just repeating arguments that make no sense to the other so let's let it rest. 

[DestroyerBirb]

On 6/20/2019 at 7:51 AM, Infernalslayer said:

It will get even better..

When GW gets around to releasing a battletome for Slaves to Darkness, they will delete  every warscroll that doesn't correspond to a miniature they still sell.

So the Chaos Sorcerer Lord will lose the mount option when the update comes, like the Necromancer did in the Legions of Nagash book, and everyone who converted their model on horse is going to own another model that will be invalid for matched play games.

Noooo!

[Charleston]

On 6/19/2019 at 9:51 PM, Infernalslayer said:

It will get even better..

When GW gets around to releasing a battletome for Slaves to Darkness, they will delete  every warscroll that doesn't correspond to a miniature they still sell.

So the Chaos Sorcerer Lord will lose the mount option when the update comes, like the Necromancer did in the Legions of Nagash book, and everyone who converted their model on horse is going to own another model that will be invalid for matched play games.

Yeah, I somehow fear it. But a lot of our range is still plastic and should remain untouched.

I am currently in a weird mood about the Darkoath Tome. Chaos was always a main enemy and Slaves/Warriors were an iconic enemy in the World that was. I love the idea of mortals gaining unholy strength and power from dark gods. And the loss of identity that follows up. My biggest fear is that they leave a wide part of the Slaves to Darkness untouched. This would be the worst case scenario: Imagine cool new Darkoath/Everchosen Units and then Chaos Warriors remaining the same trash profile they are right now. The Darkoath/Slaves Tome will be a different thing for gw as they have to buff the faction a lot to get them out of the current miserable position they are in right now. This could lead straightforward to gw keeping it conservative and releasing one of the weakest AoS 2.0 tomes so far.

 

[DestroyerBirb]

On 6/20/2019 at 7:51 AM, Infernalslayer said:

It will get even better..

When GW gets around to releasing a battletome for Slaves to Darkness, they will delete  every warscroll that doesn't correspond to a miniature they still sell.

So the Chaos Sorcerer Lord will lose the mount option when the update comes, like the Necromancer did in the Legions of Nagash book, and everyone who converted their model on horse is going to own another model that will be invalid for matched play games.

Noooo!