AoS 2 - Clan Skyre Discussion

[Num]

Sadly, I'll go with your predictions... So far, most of what GW gave to Skaven were nerfs (clawpacks,warpstone sparks,gnash piling,death runner duplicating...) to already "meh" comboes or allegiances... Besides perhaps crown of conquest, which would also get nerfed following the same logic.

[Skreech Verminking]

10 minutes ago, Num said:

Sadly, I'll go with your predictions... So far, most of what GW gave to Skaven were nerfs (clawpacks,warpstone sparks,gnash piling,death runner duplicating...) to already "meh" comboes or allegiances... Besides perhaps crown of conquest, which would also get nerfed following the same logic.

Sadly this has been the case with Gw.

but hey let’s not give the hopes up.

Maybe the battalions will be nerfed, maybe (probably) the shock gauntlet only work on unmodified 6 and next to nothing we have been nerfed to the ground, but maybe (highly possible) skyre might finally get their own clanrats and Stormvermins.

and maybe, the skaven will all be combined together and get a Gloomspite Gitz release.

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[Nikobot]

@angrycontra lots of sense behind your views, I think a few different paths can work and people will just have personal preferences. I prefer Stormfiends costlier and better, I can see why other people might want them cheaper. My view is, Skryre is Skaven's elite weapons force, and the opportunity to be Skaven without being a horde. Also, with the sheer amount of damage that new armies can deal now, reducing the punch of stormfiends would put them further behind. Aside from warpfire throwers, they have gone from a 300pt unit to more of a 240-260pt unit to me right now. All the new units are surpassing them. 3x stormfiends vs 6x eels? 6x blight kings? 20 witch elves? We pay a price for their versatility, which is OK, but it seems specialising is what pays off in the meta. So hopefully they give us options to be able to do so, and get buffs and synergies. Currently, mortars are useless, ratlings don't do anything unless you have 6+ fiends but that's a LOT of commitment and on average mediocre @ only range 12" and hero-targetting got harder. The only sweet spot are warpfires or buffed shockfists. grinders are utility.

Gautfyre should change, that's fine. I don't know why GW persists with implementing sensible rules like game-wide 9" distance when deep-striking, and then finding ways to break it. Sure have a few synergies that can pay off with easier deeps-trike charges, but stuff like Gavriel is just silly.

Currently enginecovens might need to do a bit more to be their own battalion, but there are lots of opportunities to expand on them, I did like the uniqueness of their battalion and the fact you could choose a mixture of covens.

[Kirjava13]

As much as I enjoy its uniqueness, the Skryre battalion is too limiting to stick around. Other armies get to stick a bonus on some troops in smaller games and get a bonus artefact and command point into the bargain, but that's only possible in a 2000 point game for us. Grumble-complain.

[Nikobot]

Lucky skryre don't have any CA's and so don't need any CPs! Also lucky there's maybe only 1 artefact worth taking!

I think you're right, it will probably get something of an overhaul. Maybe covens will be better, but standalone and Clans Skryre will become a mega battalion... or maybe covens will end up like temples and bestow a CA similar to their current effect.

[Kirjava13]

I've still not forgiven whichever unthinking or brainless derp it was that let an allegiance ability be applicable to only a single unit in the entire army, and the most expensive one too (Strength In Numbers, Acolytes, in case anyone needed reminding). That decision is so mind-numbingly careless, or stupid, that it makes me really quite unreasonably upset given that we're talking about rules for how to play with our toy soldiers. 

[Nikobot]

It doesn't seem like lots of thought went into their allegiance abilities towards the end... 

Sparks went from doing double damage - virtually exclusive use on mortars or grinderfists for 1a, and proved hardly game changing

then to +1 damage for a short time - ratling guns with potential output of 7-9w average, didnt really get to try but again, wasnt going to change the world

then to +1 damage one attack only ever... best use case? only if you need 1 more wound to kill Nagash (exaggerated, but or other hero/finish off unit etc) otherwise don't even bother, not worth the d3 mortal wounds risk

seems like they weren't too focused and it was just temporary measures...

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

I've been playing around with skryre for a while and I've grown to lean on them for magic centric builds. The warpstone token abilities are still good to re-roll spells, especially if you want that arch-warlock on top of a balewind vortex. The battalions mechanically are decent in my opinion but its the cost and unit requirements that ultimately make lists very 1-dimensional, and thus haven't used them. I agree with  @Nikobot that they're the elite troops and I enjoy not having to worry so much about battleshock, its a breath of fresh air. I like allies of Hellpits so packmasters can pull double-duty buffing stormfiends and the monster. 

Here's a debatable opinion: The mortar teams are the most useful units of skryre. Mind you, I have only found value in them when running 5 of them. Thats 300 hundred points! Here's how I use them: I'm paying 60 points each for a 18'' wide bubble of area denial, that can still hit things 30'' away turn 1. During deployment, I aggressively put them out in the open near my deployment zones knowing that ambushes or stormcast shenanigans will have to go farther away without committing my entire army. Its also disposable. I dont care if a single team dies early on. I treat it as bait for my counter-attacks next turn. 

[Nikobot]

1 hour ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

they're the elite troops and I enjoy not having to worry so much about battleshock, its a breath of fresh air.

Its also the fact that Skaven has an option NOT to field a minimum of 100+ models. This is their chance to get on the table with the same number of troops as Stormcast, Sylvaneth, KO etc. a lot of players these days do want that option.

 

1 hour ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

Here's a debatable opinion: The mortar teams are the most useful units of skryre. Mind you, I have only found value in them when running 5 of them. Thats 300 hundred points! Here's how I use them: I'm paying 60 points each for a 18'' wide bubble of area denial, that can still hit things 30'' away turn 1. During deployment, I aggressively put them out in the open near my deployment zones knowing that ambushes or stormcast shenanigans will have to go farther away without committing my entire army. Its also disposable. I dont care if a single team dies early on. I treat it as bait for my counter-attacks next turn. 

An interesting perspective for discussion. Can't deny that would be a threat bubble people will take notice of and clearly some opponents will adjust tactics at the thought of what some hot dice could do to an expensive unit should it get within range. That has a value all to its own.

I believe as they stand, they are slightly over-costed and you rely on the Skryre command trait and formally Skryre Sparks to get some decent output.
Love that they don't need LOS but that is best used for sniping a hiding hero and well, good luck landing 1 on a hero, possibly with an additional -1. They just do nothing too much of the time to be worth it at current points OR in small quantities and without luck. Ratlings and Warpfire are the only teams that do anything currently. Grinders too, but they are utility. Doomflayer and mortar need help.

I think they need a tweak, some ideas :

1. Drop in points to 40-50, 40 may be a touch low, 45-50pts
2. Make them wound on a 3+ and leave them at 60-70pts
3. Change their range to 28" and change their overcharge to fire 2 quick shots at shortened 22" range, instead of overcharge increasing range.
4. Access to new buffs synergising really well with them and making them worth it. God knows if they make Sparks Damage Buff worth it again they could be back with vengeance

Wonder if we will get ability to group weapons teams into units of 1-3 or 1-5, or provide them as detachments to Verminus again.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Nikobot I would argue their stat line is just fine for 60 points. I have to believe that each weapon team, while not created equal, has a specific role to play. The mortar team is obviously designed to hit horde units. The +1 to hit a unit with an easy 10+ models is a great buff while also the first or even second hit does a straight 6 DMG to the same unit. Statistically, they are unreliable on their own, but why not run more than 1 anyways? When I run 4+, I've had great success doing 12 damage the first two turns catching battleshock prone units off-guard, especially with the surprise 30'' range. I would try framing them in terms of they're roles and give them a chance in your next few games. 

[Nikobot]

@Riff_Raff_Rascal They aren't as popular as Ratlings and Warpfires for a reason, because they often don't get any job done and just waste points.

Ratling

18" range overcharge vs 4+ armor = ave 2.33w, 5+ = 2.92w, 6+ 3.50w
9" range overcharge vs 4+ armor =    ave 3.11w, 5+ 3.89w, 6+ = 4.67w

Mortar

Target 10+ models vs 4+ armor = ave 0.97w, 5+/6+ = ave 1.17w
Target 20+ models vs 4+ armor = ave 1.67w, 5+/6+ = ave 2.00w

If a target has less than 20 models, then 5 mortars might do 5 wounds a turn. If a target has more than 20 models, then its probably shooting at non-elites anyway.

Warpfire throwers rightfully scare the poop out anything elite or heroic near your combat lines, and most of the time deliver.

There definitely was a use-case when you could drop a Warpstone Spark on them and double your damage, but that's gone now. The numbers don't fill me with awe. Appreciate the idea of the threat bubble, but need luck to effect an actual result away from psychology.

[Xelotath]

So I read somewhere that Stormfiends are meant to be on 50mm rounds, but I bought two boxes and cracked them open today to find 60mm rounds in them.

So I assume they’re supposed to be on 60s now? 

[Overread]

According to  https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Core-Rules-and-Bases-Sizes-EN.pdf

They are on 60mm bases. Mostly anything on a round base now should be on that list and be fixed; those on square bases might change and a new Battletome might change a few as well, though typically the bases get bigger not smaller. 

[Xelotath]

Ah thanks for the link I was unaware of that, haven’t played Sigmar since 2.0 came out so a little confused on where everything is sometimes.

also I was wondering what people thought about endless spells for Skryre, I’ve heard Cogs are pretty much universally good and Balewind for an Arch Warlock is great, but what about others? I’m quite unfamiliar with most of them.

cheers

[Kirjava13]

If you're playing Skryre, odds are you have a lot of shooting, so you want your enemies to stay away from you, or at least charge you a little more slowly- to that end, Soul Snare Shackles are very helpful!

I put my Stormfriends on 50mm bases and to hell with it. 

[Overread]

2 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

I put my Stormfriends on 50mm bases and to hell with it. 

You realise you're going to the Special Hell for that - the one where people who talk in the cinema go?! 

[5kaven5lave]

Think I’ll go Skryre in the new book for my first few games at least. Rocket dude with a warlock and arch-Warlock, 3x3 fiends and some artillery, big blob of 40 Plague Monks as allies. 

[Nikobot]

39 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Think I’ll go Skryre in the new book for my first few games at least. Rocket dude with a warlock and arch-Warlock, 3x3 fiends and some artillery, big blob of 40 Plague Monks as allies. 

they might not be your allies... could just be your other units haha

[GeneralZero]

Is 3 units of 3 fiends too much in a 2000pts game? I'd like to build an army around 3x3 fiends+ 2 warp canons, is it too much?

[5kaven5lave]

1 minute ago, Nikobot said:

they might not be your allies... could just be your other units haha

This is true, I reckon we’d only get Stormfiends as battleline in Skryre though, else that would be too good I think. 

[5kaven5lave]

Just now, GeneralZero said:

Is 3 units of 3 fiends too much in a 2000pts game? I'd like to build an army around 3x3 fiends+ 2 warp canons, is it too much?

I’m damn well gonna try!! What I posted above was 1970 if your artillery was 2 cannons and a doomwheel (prays to the Great Horned Rat for an updated warscroll), assuming the new rocket warlock is about the same price as an arch-warlock. Think we will need a blob of bodies somewhere though, mine will be monks as I have 40 painted already. 

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

Is 3 units of 3 fiends too much in a 2000pts game? I'd like to build an army around 3x3 fiends+ 2 warp canons, is it too much?

As it stands, they are pure, elite-hammer units and really want an anvil to get the most out of them by charging a flank. I've been running 2x3\3x3 with 40-80 Clanrats and always bring 2 WLC's and have done very well with it. As @5kaven5lave said, you really want a blob of Clanrats\Monks\Giant Rats to screen as Stormfiends don't like to be punched.

Of course, with this book all of this is subject to change.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Gwendar

[Blueraven84]

I wonder if there is a snowball chance in hell that GW will update 9,20 euros metal acolytes with 25mm square bases  to something from this century. I was thinking one unit of acolytes and 2x 3 stormfiends for Skryre starters....

[GeneralZero]

well, as a player who intend to complete the carrion empire boxes with a SC rats, I'm wondering if plague monks can be added as a battle line and/or can simply be added to skyre to get a cheap populated block of rats... (and I want that bell in the SC!)

 

[Num]

42 minutes ago, Blueraven84 said:

I wonder if there is a snowball chance in hell that GW will update 9,20 euros metal acolytes with 25mm square bases  to something from this century. I was thinking one unit of acolytes and 2x 3 stormfiends for Skryre starters....

Although the artwork from the article features some kind of new acolyte, the photos only show the metal acolytes... I wouldn't thus count on an update sadly... But who knows !