AoS 2 - Clan Verminus / Skaven Discussion

[Kugane]

37 minutes ago, Kramer said:

I had to read it twice as well, and correct me if I’m wrong but when he wrote:

He meant he would play against it. So all good. 

From my personal perspective. Hellz yeah, awesome conversion and in a list with multiple verminlords all the better. Easier to differentiate and remember artefacts etc. 

Thank you for the nice comment and clarification! For some reason my brain didn't register the if (the brain tends to skip double words or words  that look similar it seems), so I assumed the cork layers might make it look like it is modelled for an advantage or that there is some weird AOS rule I wasn't aware of yet :P.

I kind of wanted all my verminlords to look different. I sort of want a warpseer as well, but not sure which model to use as a base for the conversion yet. I might get a warpgnaw verminlord and convert the globe into his hand,  I could probably still use it as a regular warpgnaw after that when needed. A magnus the red would be great, but I lack a large rat tail to make that model work.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Kugane said:

Thank you for the nice comment and clarification! For some reason my brain didn't register the if (the brain tends to skip double words or words  that look similar it seems), so I assumed the cork layers might make it look like it is modelled for an advantage or that there is some weird AOS rule I wasn't aware of yet :P.

I kind of wanted all my verminlords to look different. I sort of want a warpseer as well, but not sure which model to use as a base for the conversion yet. I might get a warpgnaw verminlord and convert the globe into his hand,  I could probably still use it as a regular warpgnaw after that when needed. A magnus the red would be great, but I lack a large rat tail to make that model work.

Definitely works. Can’t think of another base model either. Might come back in that one. Because we must be missing some other model. But a large rat tail is a relatively easy sculpting person project I guess. 

[Kugane]

41 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Definitely works. Can’t think of another base model either. Might come back in that one. Because we must be missing some other model. But a large rat tail is a relatively easy sculpting person project I guess. 

I'm absolutely horrible at sculpting, I did buy those rubber sculpting tools and whatnot, but my sculpting never comes out as how I had hoped it would be, lol. Perhaps I can snatch some verminlord tail bits off ebay, that would probably do the trick to turn about any daemon into a verminlord.

[Mattbringssoda]

Hi all!  Just returning to the new AOS after a lot of time away.  Gonna try to get some games in this week, was curious for any feedback on this  1250 pt list to see if I'm probably on the right track:

 

Allegiance: Chaos 

General:  Deathrunner w/ Crown

Screaming bell

1x40 Clanrats - spears

1x40 Clanrats - spears

1x5 Acolytes 

1x3 Stormfieds - warp fire projector 

1x Warplightining Cannon

-1250 exact

----- 

I thought about dropping the acolytes and replacing with a Packmaster for the Stormfiends (who'd be armed with Shock Gauntlets, in that case..)

 

Thanks for any input!

Edited July 18, 2018 by Mattbringssoda

[RaritanAnon]

2 hours ago, Mattbringssoda said:

Hi all!  Just returning to the new AOS after a lot of time away.  Gonna try to get some games in this week, was curious for any feedback on this  1250 pt list to see if I'm probably on the right track:

 

Allegiance: Chaos 

General:  Deathrunner w/ Crown

Screaming bell

1x40 Clanrats - spears

1x40 Clanrats - spears

1x5 Acolytes 

1x3 Stormfieds - warp fire projector 

1x Warplightining Cannon

-1250 exact

----- 

I thought about dropping the acolytes and replacing with a Packmaster for the Stormfiends (who'd be armed with Shock Gauntlets, in that case..)

 

Thanks for any input!

It's alright. A couple things. Screaming bell is too expensive for what it does at low points. You're better off grabbing a warlord and maybe a Grey Seer or engineer. Those 5 Acolytes will probably not do much the whole game. I say drop them and 20 of the Clanrats in one Squad. Keep that one to babysit the Cannon and instead take a couple Warpfire teams to support the Stormfiends and 40x Clanrats on the front line. 

Allegiance: Chaos

Deathrunner (120)

- General

- Trait: Cunning Deceiver

- Artefact: Crown of Conquest

Warlock Engineer (100)

Skaven Warlord (100)

- Shield & Warpforged Blade

40 x Clanrats (200)

- Rusty Spear

20 x Clanrats (120)

- Rusty Spear

3 x Stormfiends (290)

1 x Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team (70)

1 x Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team (70)

Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

 

Total: 1250 / 1250

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 200

Wounds: 105

 

[Mattbringssoda]

Alright cool thanks.  Good advice, I'll adjust acordingly.

[Tip4Tap]

I’ve been meaning to start a skaven army for ages but can never get round to it. Honestly I have no idea where to start.

Im not convinced they are any good as a lone army. I feel as if they are better used in a mixed chaos force. I love stormfiends, the Verminlord Deceiver, Thanquol & Boneripper and Warp Lightning Cannon. However, I think most of the battleline stuff is trash unless you can field a lot of it, let’s be honest though who wants to build and paint 120 clanrats. So ive been thinking of a mixed chaos force using Plaguebearers as the battleline.

I really want to make the army work and take it to tournaments I’m just not sure skaven can be competitive. Any advice on how to get started and optimise my rat force?

[Num]

Hi, from what I've seen in tournament results, and the feedback from peooleon this forum, you have two main options to be "competitive"

- max the clanrats out. Like 200+ of them... Cap objectives and watch your opponents' despair in front of so many wounds to slay.

- go skryre (see the other topic). Plus you won't have to paint plenty of clanrats

 

Cheers

[Mayple]

4 hours ago, Tip4Tap said:

I’ve been meaning to start a skaven army for ages but can never get round to it. Honestly I have no idea where to start.

Im not convinced they are any good as a lone army. I feel as if they are better used in a mixed chaos force. I love stormfiends, the Verminlord Deceiver, Thanquol & Boneripper and Warp Lightning Cannon. However, I think most of the battleline stuff is trash unless you can field a lot of it, let’s be honest though who wants to build and paint 120 clanrats. So ive been thinking of a mixed chaos force using Plaguebearers as the battleline.

I really want to make the army work and take it to tournaments I’m just not sure skaven can be competitive. Any advice on how to get started and optimise my rat force?

If you want to be competitive with Skaven, you gotta get cheesy, or play dirty (in the nice kind of way, don't be "that guy"), I'm talking swarms of plague monks backed up by a harbinger of decay (check out his command ability; that's a more powerful version of Thanquol's) EDIT: Scratch that. Nurgle Mortals, so no skaven. Late night rambling - Deathrunner general with cunning deceiver and crown of command or lens of refraction (hysh) - Archaon + 2+ Warpseer Verminlords, and so on, and so on. Strongly consider gutter runners, regardless of your approach. Those fellows have won me battles I ought to have lost

 

If in doubt of what to buy a bunch of, I can recommend plague monks. Their starter pack gives you plenty of options for the other clans, such as the screaming bell, grey seer, and warplightning cannon; and each pack of plague monks also give you 20 giant rats, so.. Value. 

They are also considerable less painful to paint as a horde compared to clanrats.

You'd still need clanrats in some shape of form, as they're invaluable as objective grabbers and outmaneuvering tools, but no need to get hundreds of them At least not until Verminus gets a release.

To give you a good idea of the key difference between the two notable horde options;

Clanrats - Fast, Maneuverable, Cheap, Reliant on Warlord for killing power. Extremely weak under 30/20 rats, even when buffed. Consider them slaves, and they will never disappoint you. Their retreat+charge rule enables them to pull moves other infantry could never dream of.

Plague Monks - Killy, Self-Reliant, Still cheaper than most other infantry, but way more deadly. Wants to get into close combat as fast as possible, and gets to attack three times each when they charge. Dual wielding foetide blades is the hands down best (and coolest) weapon option. They can pick all the banner options, but only one leader option. When they die in combat, they deal mortal wounds to the enemy on a 6+, so you actually want them to get in there and get murdered. They can take on things way above their league. Their lack of a save is actually deceptive, and makes you think they're super squishy. With 40 total wounds, they're really not, and you mitigate further losses with inspiring presence or crown of command. Also worth noting is that most things that would deal a whole lot of damage to plague monks would also rend through the save value of clanrats,  leaving them on equal footing. It is only versus WEAK attacks that plague monks starts taking casualties that clanrats could avoid

 

Giant rats are weird mix between plague monks and clanrats, and work best, oddly enough,  alongside plague priests. 

 

Anyway, that was a bit of a ramble. At the end of the day, get a whole bunch of whatever you want. Skaven are more competitive than people give them credit for, regardless of your choice of clan. They do, however, require you to really bring a plan to the table, and innovate where needed. So be prepared for the mental challenge of it all

 

If you're still unsure what to go for, I wrote a clan comparison thingy over at the Pestilence thread, pretty early on the first page if I recall correctly, so feel free to check that out for added insight. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Mayple

[RaritanAnon]

26 minutes ago, Mayple said:

-snip-

The issue is that Plague Monks aren't battleline for generic Chaos, so you're going to need at least 100 Clanrats. 40/40/20 or 40/40/40. To the layman, you're looking at 100+ infantry just for your battleline, and then 40+ plague monks? It's true Skaven are hordey but that's intense for anyone. 

Instead I recommend having your 100 rat meatshield, and then take toys to back them up. Yes they're slaves, yes they die in droves, but they're the backbone of your army. Take weapon teams to support them. Take Stormfiends and Stormvermin to handle the tougher units. Take wizards, Cannons, plagueclaws and Verminlords for support. 

You can run a Grand Alliance: Skaven rather easily and give you access to a lot of the game's models. You just have to cross the Clanrat hurdle, first. My advice? Pick a simple color scheme and do them 20 or so at a time. Don't overload yourself. 

[Mattbringssoda]

As a little tangent:

I'm sure I'm not the first one to do this,  but I hadn't come across it on the interwebz yet.  If you want a couple of Deathrunners but are having a hard time coming across the models, kitbashing some Bloodbowl Gutterunners (2 come in the back) with some Stormvermin weapons a leader heads (finally a use for my Stormvermin kit ?  ) gives what I think are some pretty descent Deathrunner twins.

[Mayple]

@RaritanAnon

To be clear, I was suggesting 3x20 clanrats, backed up by a horde of plague monks. When their job is solely to grab objectives and serve as meatshields, they don't really need to be full units when they're backed up by other horde units intended to be killy

[Tip4Tap]

14 hours ago, Mayple said:

If you want to be competitive with Skaven, you gotta get cheesy, or play dirty (in the nice kind of way, don't be "that guy"), I'm talking swarms of plague monks backed up by a harbinger of decay (check out his command ability; that's a more powerful version of Thanquol's) EDIT: Scratch that. Nurgle Mortals, so no skaven. Late night rambling - Deathrunner general with cunning deceiver and crown of command or lens of refraction (hysh) - Archaon + 2+ Warpseer Verminlords, and so on, and so on. Strongly consider gutter runners, regardless of your approach. Those fellows have won me battles I ought to have lost

 

If in doubt of what to buy a bunch of, I can recommend plague monks. Their starter pack gives you plenty of options for the other clans, such as the screaming bell, grey seer, and warplightning cannon; and each pack of plague monks also give you 20 giant rats, so.. Value. 

They are also considerable less painful to paint as a horde compared to clanrats.

You'd still need clanrats in some shape of form, as they're invaluable as objective grabbers and outmaneuvering tools, but no need to get hundreds of them At least not until Verminus gets a release.

To give you a good idea of the key difference between the two notable horde options;

Clanrats - Fast, Maneuverable, Cheap, Reliant on Warlord for killing power. Extremely weak under 30/20 rats, even when buffed. Consider them slaves, and they will never disappoint you. Their retreat+charge rule enables them to pull moves other infantry could never dream of.

Plague Monks - Killy, Self-Reliant, Still cheaper than most other infantry, but way more deadly. Wants to get into close combat as fast as possible, and gets to attack three times each when they charge. Dual wielding foetide blades is the hands down best (and coolest) weapon option. They can pick all the banner options, but only one leader option. When they die in combat, they deal mortal wounds to the enemy on a 6+, so you actually want them to get in there and get murdered. They can take on things way above their league. Their lack of a save is actually deceptive, and makes you think they're super squishy. With 40 total wounds, they're really not, and you mitigate further losses with inspiring presence or crown of command. Also worth noting is that most things that would deal a whole lot of damage to plague monks would also rend through the save value of clanrats,  leaving them on equal footing. It is only versus WEAK attacks that plague monks starts taking casualties that clanrats could avoid

 

Giant rats are weird mix between plague monks and clanrats, and work best, oddly enough,  alongside plague priests. 

 

Anyway, that was a bit of a ramble. At the end of the day, get a whole bunch of whatever you want. Skaven are more competitive than people give them credit for, regardless of your choice of clan. They do, however, require you to really bring a plan to the table, and innovate where needed. So be prepared for the mental challenge of it all

 

If you're still unsure what to go for, I wrote a clan comparison thingy over at the Pestilence thread, pretty early on the first page if I recall correctly, so feel free to check that out for added insight. 

So what would your typical all comers skaven list look like. 

I need a list that can deal with the big boys. Nagash, seraphon, stormcast etc.

[cxiv]

Played my first game in a siege against my very own free people's army... Was close but I got smashed by the OP griffons and handgunners. My poor stormvermin, a unit of 20, were out of the crown of command range, lost 10 rats in one turn of combat against the griffon, then finally we're completely wiped off the table when the BS test took place.

 

Both teams are doing pretty well this edition from my experience though (have just played my free people's, mostly). I just wish it we're easier to get CP.

[The_Yellow_Sign]

On 7/18/2018 at 12:02 PM, Mattbringssoda said:

Hi all!  Just returning to the new AOS after a lot of time away.  Gonna try to get some games in this week, was curious for any feedback on this  1250 pt list to see if I'm probably on the right track:

 

Allegiance: Chaos 

General:  Deathrunner w/ Crown

Screaming bell

1x40 Clanrats - spears

1x40 Clanrats - spears

1x5 Acolytes 

1x3 Stormfieds - warp fire projector 

1x Warplightining Cannon

-1250 exact

----- 

I thought about dropping the acolytes and replacing with a Packmaster for the Stormfiends (who'd be armed with Shock Gauntlets, in that case..)

 

Thanks for any input!

I'm new to Skaven (and AoS in general), so this may be a stupid question, but how do you get the Packmaster's abilities to apply to Stormfiends? It looks like Stormfiends are listed as Skryre units, but the Packmaster's nice abilities only apply to Moulder units.

[TheOtherJosh]

59 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

I'm new to Skaven (and AoS in general), so this may be a stupid question, but how do you get the Packmaster's abilities to apply to Stormfiends? It looks like Stormfiends are listed as Skryre units, but the Packmaster's nice abilities only apply to Moulder units.

Stormfiends have both Skryre and Moulder Keywords.

[cxiv]

I wish we could get a combined skaven alliance book like Legions of Nagash but for our rat boys.

[Sastopher]

There are some competitive lists out of Moulder as well.

Giant rats are a cheap and high-damage battleline unit that can cover for stormfiends (which are also moulder) and a cabal of packmasters. Their only deficiency is terrible bravery; at full strength they do pound-for-pound some of the most damage of any battleline unit (3 attacks at 2s and 5s is 5/6 of a wound per rat).

I usually take 5 packmasters, which I know is above the commonly-recommended 2. You still get really good returns out of the 3rd and 4th whipping (as it still increases the odds of exploding attacks), the extra charge range is often really useful,  and packmaster redundancy in an all-moulder army is rarely bad. In objective play, I often split them into two groups to cover different ends of the battlefield.

The rest of the list is allied units round out the list, providing mobility and range. An arch-warlock, or gutter runners, or a few weapon teams are all interesting options.

It took a bit of effort to get 120 giant rats but there are some plastic sets that come with a few dozen rats you can sub in. They're often sold as bits at a decent price too.

[Filius]

I just found out the Skweel Gnawtooth the former Clan Moulder Packmaster Hero has almost the same Backstory as Canis Wolfborn, which … just makes Skaven even more awesome. I was so happy about this coincidence, that I thought, I have to share it with someone, yes-yes.

I definitely have to take a closer look into the Space Wolves product range for conversion option, hehe.

[RaritanAnon]

1 hour ago, Sastopher said:

There are some competitive lists out of Moulder as well.

Giant rats are a cheap and high-damage battleline unit that can cover for stormfiends (which are also moulder) and a cabal of packmasters. Their only deficiency is terrible bravery; at full strength they do pound-for-pound some of the most damage of any battleline unit (3 attacks at 2s and 5s is 5/6 of a wound per rat).

I usually take 5 packmasters, which I know is above the commonly-recommended 2. You still get really good returns out of the 3rd and 4th whipping (as it still increases the odds of exploding attacks), the extra charge range is often really useful,  and packmaster redundancy in an all-moulder army is rarely bad. In objective play, I often split them into two groups to cover different ends of the battlefield.

The rest of the list is allied units round out the list, providing mobility and range. An arch-warlock, or gutter runners, or a few weapon teams are all interesting options.

It took a bit of effort to get 120 giant rats but there are some plastic sets that come with a few dozen rats you can sub in. They're often sold as bits at a decent price too.

I tooled around with the idea and why stop at 120? It's just going to overwhelm the enemy in rats. They'll have no chance. 

Allegiance: Moulder
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Shock-Prod
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Grey Seer (100)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
3 x Stormfiends (290)
3 x Stormfiends (290)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 253
 

[Num]

1 hour ago, RaritanAnon said:

I tooled around with the idea and why stop at 120? It's just going to overwhelm the enemy in rats. They'll have no chance. 

Allegiance: Moulder
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Shock-Prod
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Grey Seer (100)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
3 x Stormfiends (290)
3 x Stormfiends (290)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 253
 

At call to glory cancon 2018 someone played a similar list and placed 33rd

 

http://heraldsofwar.com/documents/cancon-2018-lists-chaos.pdf

[cxiv]

Need help building an effective 1500 pt list.. how is this?

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Skaven Warlord (General) (100)
- Warpforged Blade
Warlock Engineer (100)
Verminlord Warpseer (260)

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

Units
20 x Stormvermin (280)
- Halberd
3 x Poisoned Wind Mortar Weapon Team (180)
2 x Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team (140)

Total: 1500 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 10
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137
 

[Zinnar]

20 hours ago, RaritanAnon said:

I tooled around with the idea and why stop at 120? It's just going to overwhelm the enemy in rats. They'll have no chance. 

Allegiance: Moulder
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Shock-Prod
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Grey Seer (100)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
3 x Stormfiends (290)
3 x Stormfiends (290)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 253
 

I like this quite a bit, but the Grey Seer can't be your general, as he has to be allied in if you're running a Moulder army. That being said, he still gets his command ability anyway, so it doesn't really matter!

[Mattbringssoda]

2 hours ago, Zinnar said:

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Mattbringssoda

[Skreech Verminking]

On 7/20/2018 at 8:56 PM, RaritanAnon said:

I tooled around with the idea and why stop at 120? It's just going to overwhelm the enemy in rats. They'll have no chance. 

Allegiance: Moulder
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Herding Whip & Thing Catcher
Packmaster (60)
- Shock-Prod
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Grey Seer (100)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
3 x Stormfiends (290)
3 x Stormfiends (290)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 253
 

Your list looks good, but exchanging the grey seer with a Deathrunner , who has the crown of conquest as an artifact, will literally make your whole army immune to battleshock.

but anyways, I like your hordestyle army, it reminds me of my glorydays, at the tournament, when I was playing about 340 giant/clanrats.

??

Edited July 21, 2018 by Skreech Verminking