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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Clan Verminus / Skaven Discussion

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2 hours ago, Noit said:

Who will ever use rat ogres?

I will. I've got 8 of the island of blood rat ogres and was using 4-6 when they got the price drop last general's handbook so i'm really excited how they are shaping up.

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4 minutes ago, Adamcbutton said:

I don’t think you can use Master Moulders to boost rat ogors’ wounds can you? The prized creation ability only affects Clan Moulder units with the fighting beast keyword, and rat ogres do not have it - they’re ‘pack’ instead. 

Nop sorry they do have the fighting beast keyword.

so yes it’s possible 

edit: although, you cannot choose the same model multiple times. 

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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3 hours ago, Noit said:

Who will ever use rat ogres?

They are better but still unuseful.

Me, -1 rend, 2 damage, better on the charge. My opponent will either need to deal with that or a big blob op clanrats next to it camping on the objectives. 

Also easier to position after moving it through the gnawhole. 40 clanrats in 6” is a challenge I imagine. 

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2 hours ago, Adamcbutton said:

I don’t think you can use Master Moulders to boost rat ogors’ wounds can you? The prized creation ability only affects Clan Moulder units with the fighting beast keyword, and rat ogres do not have it - they’re ‘pack’ instead. 

Rat ogors have both the "fighting beast" keyword and the "Pack" keyword :)

 

Edit: Ah. That was already answered. As Skreech said - can't pick the same model multiple times, so my theoretical Boneripper and friends approach would not work.

Edited by Mayple

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5 hours ago, Noit said:

Who will ever use rat ogres?

They are better but still unuseful.

I will. Having a small group of 4-6 rat ogres with a packmaster/master moulder will make a very powerful heavy hitting melee force for surprisingly low points now with the decrease.

10 hours ago, angrycontra said:

I'm sorry but what? Didn't buff the bad weapon options? +1 attack and rend on mini mortars plus huge range boost. +1 to wound with ratlings and those things gain most from new warpstone sparks (+1 damage on range). And as far as rest of the changes go, I wouldn't call them nerfs. Doom-flayers didn't change, warpshock gauntlets are now unmodified hit (which is nerf and buff at same time), flamers are terrible against single target and insane against hordes (again, nerf/buff), drills do less damage but have more reliable deepstriking (as you're guaranteed to enter battlefield in turn 3), stormfiends points also went down 30 which is very significant drop.

The wind launcher buffs look good on paper but really don't make much sense now that you can't have multiple of the same weapons in a unit, you're going to have a long range artillery model mixed with close range/melee fighters that want to get close to the enemy. The to hit bonus against hordes also makes no sense to keep now that warpfire projectors are so good against hordes and fill that role. Should have changed the bonus to be better against more elite units so the rend could be put to more use, 3 attacks at 4+/4+ is unlikely to get much damage through. I see stormfiends being mostly used for that strong warpstone sparks damage buff with ratling cannons, alongside doomflayer gauntlets and warpfire projectors for the safest/most reliable close range combat. All just predictions though and overall stormfiends still seem decent and aren't "completely useless" like I see some people saying, there may some more allegiance abilities and synergies that make stormfiends incredibly good that I'm unaware of.

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30 minutes ago, Skavelynn said:

I will. Having a small group of 4-6 rat ogres with a packmaster/master moulder will make a very powerful heavy hitting melee force for surprisingly low points now with the decrease.

The wind launcher buffs look good on paper but really don't make much sense now that you can't have multiple of the same weapons in a unit, you're going to have a long range artillery model mixed with close range/melee fighters that want to get close to the enemy. The to hit bonus against hordes also makes no sense to keep now that warpfire projectors are so good against hordes and fill that role. Should have changed the bonus to be better against more elite units so the rend could be put to more use, 3 attacks at 4+/4+ is unlikely to get much damage through. I see stormfiends being mostly used for that strong warpstone sparks damage buff with ratling cannons, alongside doomflayer gauntlets and warpfire projectors for the safest/most reliable close range combat. All just predictions though and overall stormfiends still seem decent and aren't "completely useless" like I see some people saying, there may some more allegiance abilities and synergies that make stormfiends incredibly good that I'm unaware of.

The lack of a clear defining role is what will keep me away from them. Long range? Medium range? Short range? Melee? 260pts for a strange somewhat functional multi-range isnt going to be points efficient at all

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I think stormfeinds will be decent close range anti horde.  I go up against big units of skeletons often so I'm going to try mine with warpfire, ratling and  gauntlets. Probably not the best choice but I like the way the unit looks on the table.

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46 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

The lack of a clear defining role is what will keep me away from them. Long range? Medium range? Short range? Melee? 260pts for a strange somewhat functional multi-range isnt going to be points efficient at all

They were never long range, since the mortar option has been utter garbage. Not sure where it stands now, but I'd be surprised if they're suddenly worth taking. The general usage of Stormfiends has always put them within 15-8" at most. They generally want to eventually get in and start swinging regardless of their choice of weaponry. Close-Medium ranged unit with the tools for whatever job you equip them to excell at. A small skaven spec ops group, in a way.

@bRock_320 makes a compelling point. 

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My main annoyance with the new stormfiends is that I will have 3 different weapons to roll for if I want to have a melee focused units. 

I wish they only limited the amount of warpfire throwers and rattling guns in the unit since it seems like they seem like the most abusable.

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If they wanted to stop Stormfiends abusing warpfire, why not just nerf warpfire? 

I have written my strongly-worded email to GW, so I've largely vented all my grumpiness, but I still hate it.

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@Skavelynn I'd give the beefy rat boys a chance. Don't forget, they did get another cost reduction. I like to think of it this way, they were gonna nerf shock gauntlet anyways so they went to unmodified re-roll making the packmaster buff irrelevant for that loadout. The mortar teams are now better represented in the stormfiends gas loadouts with better range, making them more active on the table from the get-go. The second biggest change is the warpfire, which in my mind fits better with their battlefield  role both before and after the change. That's subjective of course but I always supposed they're were able to go off somewhere and take care of themselves, otherwise whats the point of an expensive hammer unit not running into a huge block of enemies?

The biggest change obviously is the loadout restrictions, which I must admit is really bloated/wordy. However, the point of a completely uniform unit I thought was to min/max their potential with buffs. Without those synergies, why not diversify anyways?

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31 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

If they wanted to stop Stormfiends abusing warpfire, why not just nerf warpfire? 

I have written my strongly-worded email to GW, so I've largely vented all my grumpiness, but I still hate it.

Personally I'd let the Battletome drop and give it a few weeks before getting heavy with the letters to GW. Sometimes subtle elements get missed out in reviews and such; or it might be that, after a few games, the changes make more sense than one might think when looking at them in a purely academic manner. 

 

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FFS man, is there something I've been unclear about? I am angry because I either have to chop up my models or buy more to have valid units, not because of some "subtle elements" or because there might be some combo that might become apparent after we have subjected the battletome to academic study. 

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38 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

If they wanted to stop Stormfiends abusing warpfire, why not just nerf warpfire? 

I have written my strongly-worded email to GW, so I've largely vented all my grumpiness, but I still hate it.

It has nothing to do with nurfing them.

GW has a new policy where a unit can only contain models that can be built from the exact number of currently sold GW kits.   We first saw this with Gloomspite, where because the kit only contains 1 staff for a banner, you can only take 1 banner of any type  per 20. 

This is to make the game more friendly to people who just want to buy kits from GW and be able to build a viable army. They don't want to give an advantage to kitbashers, or people willing to buy more models just to get certain bits. 

It is unfortunate for people who built their models under the old rules.  hopefully not too much work to convert your models since it's just the tips of the arms... It's annoying, but it's the way rule will be written now, that is obvious. 

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Yes because your argument is one Tyranid players can have had for decades now considering that nearly every time a GW codex comes out the weapon options change around.*

Therefore GW has done this for many years and has no problem doing it some more. So if you're going to argue then it benefits one to have some stable, sensible, non emotional ground to base it upon. Plus letting the Battletome actually hit the ground formally and get some time in the field testing can add weight to your argument. It might let you give a viewpoint that is more well rounded and presents actual sound reasoning. 

 

*It's why if you start talking about starting Tyranids online people quickly mention magnets and why there are loads of guides on it specifically for Tyranids. 

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Just now, sorokyl said:

GW has a new policy where a unit can only contain models that can be built from the exact number of currently sold GW kits.   We first saw this with Gloomspite, where because the kit only contains 1 staff for a banner, you can only take 1 banner of any type  per 20. 

 

With regard to banners the early AoS rules (heck even Daughters of Khaine still has it that you can have a whole unit of banner holders......) were very sloppy in how they were worded and setup. I feel for any who did load up on loads of banners, but at the same time its one change I really am glad about. It just looks wrong to have dozens of banners in units where you've only got 20 or 40 models standing there. 

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Ah, I see, we're going with the old, "They've done it before, so it's right" angle. I fail to see how because one is largely ignorant of the comings and goings of a different army in a different system that this should somehow have been expected and foreseen- the only time this has happened in AoS, to the best of my knowledge, was with Kharadron Thunderers, and it happened relatively soon after their release. Stormfiends have been in AoS since the very beginning, and since that time, I have been actively encouraged (explicitly by staff, and tacitly by coverage) to convert my models. I converted my very first box of Stormfiends that got me back into the hobby (sadly now broken after my son got hold of them a while back), not because I was powergaming (which is the accusation going around) but because I thought both gauntlet options looked naff, so I cut off the extra bits and gave the guy the drills instead. 

Now if, during the long months of having been posting in the Skryre thread, there had been a regular chorus of, "Well, be careful, the rules are probably going to change!" then I might have considered not pursuing conversions (which, I thought, was a fundamental part of the hobby- encouraging players to make the models their own). If, when talking about it with GW staff, they had said, "hmm, maybe just stick to the builds in the box", I might have had second thoughts and this tedious argument of yours might have a leg to stand on. Neither of those things happened, and so it does not. 

At the end of the day, it is a fundamentally sneaky thing to do. That might be thematic, given that it's Skaven, but it is driving me mad watching the apologising for it you do.

Edited by Kirjava13

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Do you think poison wind launcher is a valid option now for stormfiends?

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38 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

 

It has nothing to do with nurfing them.

GW has a new policy where a unit can only contain models that can be built from the exact number of currently sold GW kits.   We first saw this with Gloomspite, where because the kit only contains 1 staff for a banner, you can only take 1 banner of any type  per 20. 

 

But the Plague monks only allows you to take 1 banner per 20, while the kit allows you like.... 4?

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4 minutes ago, Chickenbits said:

But the Plague monks only allows you to take 1 banner per 20, while the kit allows you like.... 4?

It's ok to be more restrictive if it makes sense to them from a rules perspective... That doesn't violate the policy. If the warscroll said "you can take up to 5 banners" when the kit only had 4... that would violate it.

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@Kirjava13 I'm not saying its right nor wrong; I'm saying that GW has done this before many times and thus has no problem doing it. Ergo in order to counter it one requires good reasoned arguments in order to have any chance. Otherwise its just ranting for the sake of stress relief. That's why I say a kneejerk reaction fast and not even before the Battletome is out yet is unlikely to yield any actual momentum on change. 

That can work when the change is massive and there's a vast outcry, but in general its better to wait, see the full picture; see how things pan out and then make a reasoned argument. 

 

 

It might be that the way the stats are now lain out its not just a case of changing the equipment choice but making other major changes to the unit to avoid problems; or that as they are now works really well and whilst its a pain it balances and plays out better. Or perhaps you spot that there's a glaring issue and that a more free weapon choice is better.

Eg you might be able to make a reasonable argument that with the weapon setup as they are the lack of ability to specialise Stormfiend units makes them impractical to use beyond one purchase. However if allowed a more free weapon choice they'd become valuable as specialist choices. Now suddenly you've an argument based on balance that proposes increased sales for GW. You might even back it up with a notation on how easily the weapon arms are to magnetize (I have no idea how the kit is lain out so I've no idea if this is easy, hard or impossible - this is purely a "best case" example). Therefore the limited choices in one kit are not as much an issue. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Overread said:

@Kirjava13 I'm not saying its right nor wrong; I'm saying that GW has done this before many times and thus has no problem doing it. Ergo in order to counter it one requires good reasoned arguments in order to have any chance. Otherwise its just ranting for the sake of stress relief. That's why I say a kneejerk reaction fast and not even before the Battletome is out yet is unlikely to yield any actual momentum on change. 

That can work when the change is massive and there's a vast outcry, but in general its better to wait, see the full picture; see how things pan out and then make a reasoned argument. 

 

 

It might be that the way the stats are now lain out its not just a case of changing the equipment choice but making other major changes to the unit to avoid problems; or that as they are now works really well and whilst its a pain it balances and plays out better. Or perhaps you spot that there's a glaring issue and that a more free weapon choice is better.

Eg you might be able to make a reasonable argument that with the weapon setup as they are the lack of ability to specialise Stormfiend units makes them impractical to use beyond one purchase. However if allowed a more free weapon choice they'd become valuable as specialist choices. Now suddenly you've an argument based on balance that proposes increased sales for GW. You might even back it up with a notation on how easily the weapon arms are to magnetize (I have no idea how the kit is lain out so I've no idea if this is easy, hard or impossible - this is purely a "best case" example). Therefore the limited choices in one kit are not as much an issue. 

 

Agreed, any complaints will most likely be glazed over until there's some playtime under the new rules. While it does appear that many\all of us dislike the weapon setup per unit changes, it isn't something that completely makes them irrelevant and they still have a place, even if it's an odd one that forces them to fight at multiple ranges. I don't plan to use my Stormfiends all that much anymore due to the fact I have so many other options in playing Mixed\Skaventide.

That said, I would recommend that people magnetize them as they are literally some of the easiest things to magnetize; 1 Magnet on each arm\chest and attach magnets onto the weapons. Done. Hell, even if you've already glued and painted everything up, it doesn't take that much work to take a small hobby saw and carefully cut off the weapons and attach magnets via the above method... assuming of course you didn't just throw out your sprues with the other weapons on them.

 

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Gotta say, just had a very fun train ride making lists for a 1K game the week after it drops. Even within my collection there are so many thematic builds possible.
Think I might start with all-verminous: 3 gnawlords, with 2x40 clanrats & 20 stormvermin. Each Gnawlord vying for supremacy with their own retinue. (the general of course accompanies the stormvermin).
Or maybe a shadowy variation: 2x Gnawlords, 2x 40 clanrats + 1 Assassin and 20 GutterRunners with 2 CP in the bank. 
With all kinds of mixed lists possible, getting more excited with the minute. 

Who has already planned their first list? Or things to try out?
For me I also want to test Rat Ogors vs Stormvermin as a punchy unit. I think my Rat Ogors might see more playtime than the Stormvermin this edition.

 

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I'm not an existing Skaven player but  I will be kickstarting my collection with 2x Carrion Empire. I like the Magic and warptech so I'm thinking this (I think it is similar to something mentioned on face hammer):

Arch Warlock

2x Warlock Bombadier

Verminlord Warpseer =or= Thanquol (the warpfire projectors sound nasty)

2x Doom Wheel

2x Storm Fiend Units

Either converted Acolytes + allied clanrats or 3 units of Clanrats (waiting to see how the allegiance restrictions pan out with clanrats etc.)

 

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For me skaven codex will not be competitive in hight level, exept for mass control.

my first try:

Thanquol 400

2x archloch 200

gnawlord 100

Deceveir 300

 

40/40/20 rats 520

2x cannons 360

 

Warp Lightning Vortex 100

1980

Thanquol is master piece, enought hp to use flamers, use control spell (halve mov) and summon lightning to block ennemy forces.

arloch with cannons use Gnawholes to snipe hight value target.

Rats score objs, Deceveir help control.

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