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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Clan Verminus / Skaven Discussion

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Now that rat ogres are a bit cheaper I've been thinking of trying a unit of 6 with packmaster instead of 3 combat stormfiends in my vanguard list. I think It's a few more wounds and attacks for less durability, anyone have a good experience with them?

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39 minutes ago, bRock_320 said:

Now that rat ogres are a bit cheaper I've been thinking of trying a unit of 6 with packmaster instead of 3 combat stormfiends in my vanguard list. I think It's a few more wounds and attacks for less durability, anyone have a good experience with them?

Only in small games. Anything with range is killing but they do what it says on the package. Don’t forget the shooting attack (I always do ?)

in bigger games I never found a place for them but it’s a good hammer for low points. In bigger games I invest in big units of stormcermin as a hammer. 

Edited by Kramer
Typo

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So, despite my discontentment towards Horde armies, I have really been considering going into Verminus finally to give myself 1 real horde army and just use plenty of 5-10 man movement trays. I know GA: Chaos is generally the way to go, but I have been dabbling with some lists and after reviewing a few posts, I have a "final draft" below. Give some thoughts and heavy CC, I'm far too used to how to play Skryre and not so used to competitiveness with high model count Skaven.

Allegiance: Verminus
Skaven Warlord on Brood Horror (220)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Verminlord Warbringer (280)
Skaven Warlord (100)
- War Halberd & Barbed Blade


40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
30 x Stormvermin (420)
- Halberd & Shield
20 x Stormvermin (280)
- Halberd & Shield


20 x Gutter Runners (200)
- Allies
1 x Warp Grinder Weapon Team (80)
- Allies

Total: 1980 / 2000

Idea is tunneling the 30 pack of Stormvermin to hit a flank and the GR's to tie up something else in the backline\go hunting for squishy targets.

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Has there been any eratta to Skritch spiteclaw? 'Cause I'm looking to abuse the fact that his warscroll's command ability is actually very different than the generic warlord's. I was thinking of doing something sneaky-sneak similar to @Gwendar above and tunnel up, wrap stormvermin completely around and skitterleap skritch into position.  I have to ask due to the eratta on the generic Warlord command ability and if that would include Skritch despite being a named character and considering that the command ability name (Gnash-gnaw on their bones!) are the same. Does the FAQ affect all abilities named as such? Or just for stuff on the generic warlord. 

For reference, here's spiteclaw' warscroll (released 02/07/2018) and the Chaos FAQ (23/07/2018)

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//aos-warscroll-spiteclaws-swarm-en.pdf

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_grand_alliance_chaos_errata_en.pdf

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12 hours ago, Gwendar said:

So, despite my discontentment towards Horde armies, I have really been considering going into Verminus finally to give myself 1 real horde army and just use plenty of 5-10 man movement trays. I know GA: Chaos is generally the way to go, but I have been dabbling with some lists and after reviewing a few posts, I have a "final draft" below. Give some thoughts and heavy CC, I'm far too used to how to play Skryre and not so used to competitiveness with high model count Skaven.

Allegiance: Verminus
Skaven Warlord on Brood Horror (220)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Verminlord Warbringer (280)
Skaven Warlord (100)
- War Halberd & Barbed Blade


40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
30 x Stormvermin (420)
- Halberd & Shield
20 x Stormvermin (280)
- Halberd & Shield


20 x Gutter Runners (200)
- Allies
1 x Warp Grinder Weapon Team (80)
- Allies

Total: 1980 / 2000

Idea is tunneling the 30 pack of Stormvermin to hit a flank and the GR's to tie up something else in the backline\go hunting for squishy targets.

Hi, welcome to the horde :D

Cool list, with a few caveats in my mind:

- you have no shooting and would likely suffer against shooty army

- you have little magic too

- stormvermins are only good when they attack first. If they fail their grinder charge at 9", that's 400-500 points down...

- stormvermins cost quite a lot, lack versatility and their stats are close to clanrats'. Can you babysit two units at a same time? If not, also consider that if you get rid of 10 stormvermins, you get 40 extra clanrats under GA: chaos (blob of 40 stormvermins plus 40 clanrats at the same price). It depends on how hordy you want to be.

 

Personally, I have abandoned stormvermins for now, as much as I wanted to love them :( mainly because of the price and lack of versatility. Clanrats do the horde job, and I find my hammers in skryre instead. Also clanrats can be insanely buffed and you get 80 for the price of 30 stormvermins. I now use the models for conversions or skirmish.

I think that even the hardcore verminus players in this thread have replaced stormvermins with plague monks :D

 

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7 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

Has there been any eratta to Skritch spiteclaw? 'Cause I'm looking to abuse the fact that his warscroll's command ability is actually very different than the generic warlord's. I was thinking of doing something sneaky-sneak similar to @Gwendar above and tunnel up, wrap stormvermin completely around and skitterleap skritch into position.  I have to ask due to the eratta on the generic Warlord command ability and if that would include Skritch despite being a named character and considering that the command ability name (Gnash-gnaw on their bones!) are the same. Does the FAQ affect all abilities named as such? Or just for stuff on the generic warlord. 

For reference, here's spiteclaw' warscroll (released 02/07/2018) and the Chaos FAQ (23/07/2018)

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//aos-warscroll-spiteclaws-swarm-en.pdf

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_grand_alliance_chaos_errata_en.pdf

Hi. There hasn't been an errata but I find it very unlikely there won't be one. I think that Skritch's ability was meant to be synchronized with the standard warlord's. Also the errata might be interpreted in the way that both are the same ability, as they have the same name and skritch has the skaven warlord keyword.

So if you don't already own skritch, don't buy it just for this cheese... I have made this mistake for both skritch and the death runner. Both got 'nerfed' because of too much cheese in their original use. They're still cool models to collect though

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1 hour ago, Num said:

 

I think that even the hardcore verminus players in this thread have replaced stormvermins with plague monks

 

Never only Stormvermins are true Elite warriors of clan mors.

but you are right.

they cost too much and what they can do plague monks will always do better 

i would love to see an update and pointdecrease for Stormvermins just like Gw did with Bestigors.

 

 

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@Num I beg to differ about the stormvermin. In a vacuum, the monks are better on their own, yes. But if you give them an extra attack with a command ability whether its the warlord or verminlord corruptor, they're guaranteed to hit harder. Its the built in rend that really makes it worth their price when they pop up. That said I'm open to feedback on my list. 

Allegiance: Chaos
LEADERS
Verminlord Warbringer (280)
Skaven Warlord (100)
- General
- Command Trait : Lord of War
- Shield & Warpforged Blade
Grey Seer (100)
Grey Seer (100)
Verminlord Deceiver (300)
UNITS
20 x Clanrats (120)
-Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
-Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
-Rusty Spear
30 x Stormvermin (420)
-Halberd & Shield
1 x Warp Grinder Weapon Team (80)
ENDLESS SPELLS
Umbral Spellportal (60)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
The Burning Head (40)

I'm curious if the rat generals 'round these parts know what I'm going for here. And yes, its clearly an unbalanced list but turn 1 shenanigans is where its at. 

Edited by Riff_Raff_Rascal

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@Gwendar I very much love that list. Frankly you don't have to have to tunnel the stormvermin either. You're flexible during deployment to drop in 40 clanrats on a back line objective for a solid threat. Also, the gutter runners essentially serve the same role as your deep striking stormvermin so you don't necessarily need to deploy them the way you describe. But my point is the flexibility of deployment you have depending on your opponents shooting. Without changing too much I would only recommend  splitting up your stormvermin into units of 10. Decentralizing your heavy hitting blobs is a good tactic against magic and shooting especially when the start on the field and they cost the same. 

By the by, as a longtime verminous player myself, use your clanrats (or any chaff unit) this way... 

 

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7 hours ago, Num said:

- you have no shooting and would likely suffer against shooty army

- you have little magic too

- stormvermins are only good when they attack first. If they fail their grinder charge at 9", that's 400-500 points down...

- stormvermins cost quite a lot, lack versatility and their stats are close to clanrats'. Can you babysit two units at a same time? If not, also consider that if you get rid of 10 stormvermins, you get 40 extra clanrats under GA: chaos (blob of 40 stormvermins plus 40 clanrats at the same price). It depends on how hordy you want to be.

I think that even the hardcore verminus players in this thread have replaced stormvermins with plague monks :D

 

-I could easily go GA and throw in my WLC's or another 20 GR's for some shooting. I'm not as concerned with no shooting since there is meant to be a decent amount of deepstriking going on to counteract that. As for magic, while that is true, I think that yet again it just comes down to what I can fit in as allies. At this point I'll just go full GA and commit to more magic over shooting. I have enough heavily shooting armies anyway.

-Regardless of how Stormvermin perform in comparison to others, I will be running them. I just love their aesthetic too much, and I really dislike Plague Monks outside of using them for conversions. I've been playing Skryre almost exclusively for the past year and a half now, so I could definitely throw in some Stormfiends for a good hammer, but I feel the urge to go full Horde (while trying to stay below 180 models or so)

Also Is the Brood Horror Warlord worth anything, or is it generally just better to bring along 2 normal Warlords? I assumed it would be a little tankier and therefore easier to keep Crown up for the BS immunity.
 

2 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

@Gwendar I very much love that list. Frankly you don't have to have to tunnel the stormvermin either. You're flexible during deployment to drop in 40 clanrats on a back line objective for a solid threat. Also, the gutter runners essentially serve the same role as your deep striking stormvermin so you don't necessarily need to deploy them the way you describe. But my point is the flexibility of deployment you have depending on your opponents shooting. Without changing too much I would only recommend  splitting up your stormvermin into units of 10. Decentralizing your heavy hitting blobs is a good tactic against magic and shooting especially when the start on the field and they cost the same. 

By the by, as a longtime verminous player myself, use your clanrats (or any chaff unit) this way... 

No, I guess I don't have to. I've used block of 40 Clanrats+grinder to drop in a backline\on an objective with my Skryre games to good effect. Gutter Runners generally have only provided a 1st turn distraction before getting easily wiped out, but they're cheap enough that I justify it. I have a habit of going after the wrong targets with them.

I guess I hadn't thought of splitting them into MSU's of 10, so I could give that a go. I'll probably write up another GA list and post it soon. I appreciate the video, somehow I've never seen that. I've gotten a lot of advice from Dan in the past so that was useful to watch.

Also how has the warpgnaw been doing in relation to other Verminlords? I'm playing with an idea now of 2 Clanrats blocks being tunneled in where needed along with the Gutter Runner's hitting a backline all at once. Then again, I think I just overly enjoy deepstriking my units in.

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I feel you :D I moved from verminus to skryre for the opposite reason (I wanted to try elite shooting instead of horde)

Have fun with the stormvermins then, and please keep us posted so that we can also learn collectively :)

As long as you manage to protect them (tunneling, bubble wrapping, buffing,placement for charging first, or splitting them in small units), they should do the job. They may look horde chaff to the careless enemy, but they truly are elite.

I personally played them in AoSv1 like @Riff_Raff_Rascal

  in units of 10s. This made them more survivable, and their bonuses still applied when fighting small units. I haven't done this in AoSv2 yet, but I suppose that with some spare command points, you could buff your multiple small units to some great effect. In which case having multiple warlord instead of the brood horror could be of greater use. On the other hand, the brood horror ability is an area of effect so it can also benefit multiple units of 10.

In the "multiple units of 10 stormvermins" strategy, I also used to field one or two plague priests to weaken units for my stormvermins to wipe.

Cheers

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I will definitely give the MSU strategy a try first with a couple of Warlords, which would be less expensive than FW anyway. And isn't the horror's ability the exact same as a standard warlord in that you can only pick 1 unit wholly within 13"?

I have used plague priests to good effect when combined with a Deceiver and Gutter Runners. Hasn't worked as well this edition with Look out, sir (RIP Jezzails) but I still do it anytime I play my Eshin as no one expects it. 

My current list idea based on suggestions:

Allegiance: Chaos
Skaven Warlord (100)
- General
- War Halberd
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Skaven Warlord (100)
- War Halberd
Warpgnaw Verminlord (320)
Arch Warlock (140)


40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
10 x Stormvermin (140)
- Halberd & Shield
10 x Stormvermin (140)
- Halberd & Shield
10 x Stormvermin (140)
- Halberd & Shield

20 x Gutter Runners (200)
1 x Warp Grinder Weapon Team (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000

Obviously not familiar with the Warpgnaws value, but this setup would give me the ability to deepstrike 2 units of Clanrats and have the GR's going into their backline. An alternate version is to drop the Warpgnaw, bring along a Deceiver+Priest combo, and a Seer by dropping the BW+1 Stormvermin unit. Or drop the GR's to 15 and keep the BW. I have a feeling the increased magic and a debuffing a unit with the skitterleaped Priest may not be worth losing 10 Stormvermin however.

Or I'm just insane and overvalue deepstriking units. Nighthaunt and Gautfyre have possibly ruined me.

Edited by Gwendar
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@Gwendar To Brood Horror or Not to Brood Horror that is the question. Ask yourself exactly what you're trying to buff, where you're buffing and when you're in the buffing mood. The hardest part about the "combat phase" command ability is being in position after the verminous unit has charged. The Brood Horror version gives the bigger bubble, is faster to run ahead of the verminous unit before the charge, and indeed gives off a bigger bubble for the crown. All of this makes me lean towards keeping him on your main line while if you feelin' frisky, teleport the cheaper warlords behind your deepstriking unit since they're more disposable. 

As for the Warpgnaw, hell yeah. +5 feel no pain, starting at 5 dmg per swing, reliable teleport ability and a spell that is unique enough to provide just the possibility to remove an untransformed Morathi off the board turn one. Its role however is not to teleport a big blob  because of its "wholly within" restrictions, assuming you wanna try to charge the turn they drop. I instead propose you take objectives with a blob, or even more spicy, a unit of Jezzails in perfect LOS of a juicy target AND out of range for a counter charge. Alternatively, even though I said not to, get the warlord on brood horror in the warp, drop behind the blob of dudes from the warpgrinder team and have fun. 

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1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

I will definitely give the MSU strategy a try first with a couple of Warlords, which would be less expensive than FW anyway. And isn't the horror's ability the exact same as a standard warlord in that you can only pick 1 unit wholly within 13"?

I have used plague priests to good effect when combined with a Deceiver and Gutter Runners. Hasn't worked as well this edition with Look out, sir (RIP Jezzails) but I still do it anytime I play my Eshin as no one expects it. 

My current list idea based on suggestions:

Allegiance: Chaos
Skaven Warlord (100)
- General
- War Halberd
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Skaven Warlord (100)
- War Halberd
Warpgnaw Verminlord (320)
Arch Warlock (140)


40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
10 x Stormvermin (140)
- Halberd & Shield
10 x Stormvermin (140)
- Halberd & Shield
10 x Stormvermin (140)
- Halberd & Shield

20 x Gutter Runners (200)
1 x Warp Grinder Weapon Team (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000

Obviously not familiar with the Warpgnaws value, but this setup would give me the ability to deepstrike 2 units of Clanrats and have the GR's going into their backline. An alternate version is to drop the Warpgnaw, bring along a Deceiver+Priest combo, and a Seer by dropping the BW+1 Stormvermin unit. Or drop the GR's to 15 and keep the BW. I have a feeling the increased magic and a debuffing a unit with the skitterleaped Priest may not be worth losing 10 Stormvermin however.

Or I'm just insane and overvalue deepstriking units. Nighthaunt and Gautfyre have possibly ruined me.

Your list is interesting, not sure though if it is worth taking 3x10 Stormvermins.

in units of 10 they will probably never get their ability of +1to the hitrole, which is in my oppinion a very important 

buff.

i would be taking them in at least unit’s of 20 or 30-40.

 

 

 

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@Riff_Raff_RascalI did consider the larger base coming into play for Crown, and I do enjoy self-healing units. I had considered using the Warpgnaw to take objectives regardless, but I also really like the idea of 9 Jezzails landing where I need them, hmm. I've had 0 luck with Jezzails in my Skryre lists as of 2.0, but may give them a shot here. Lots of options, so I will take all of those suggestions and give them a try! Normally I attempt to collect lists rather than models, but when it comes to Skaven I tend to just collect anything since almost everything is fun and aesthetically pleasing. Except Pestilens, no interest there. Appreciate the advice.

At this point I may just get crazy with it and attempt to squeeze in a Deceiver somewhere. Oh the possibilities.

@Skreech Verminking I had been thinking the same, but I think both approaches are valid depending on the game\your opponent. I will most likely give myself plenty of different combinations a try and see what I like best as an all-rounder.

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@Skreech Verminking I dunno, pretty sure stormvermin would get the buff. I'm trying to think against what armies I would choose to engage a bigger chunks of dudes. They're role in my mind is to hit first against elite units and not chaff. I suggested to gwendar to split 'em up to protect against early range attacks. They're so expensive to lose, I'd hate to get a whole block wiped out by a Curse of Years and prefer to only lose 10. 

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8 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

@Skreech Verminking I dunno, pretty sure stormvermin would get the buff. I'm trying to think against what armies I would choose to engage a bigger chunks of dudes. They're role in my mind is to hit first against elite units and not chaff. I suggested to gwendar to split 'em up to protect against early range attacks. They're so expensive to lose, I'd hate to get a whole block wiped out by a Curse of Years and prefer to only lose 10. 

The local meta mostly consists of DoK, Tzeentch, Various Death, IJ, Seraphon and Mixed Order. I planned to only use them against heavy hitters anyway as Clanrats probably wouldn't have too many issues with extra attacks in hitting chaff, especially since the retreat-charge generally allows them to get more attacks in than whatever they're hitting would.

All that said, here is my "final draft" and probably what I will be building into in the next month or so:

Allegiance: Chaos
Skaven Warlord on Brood Horror (220)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
Verminlord Deceiver (300)
Warpgnaw Verminlord (320)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Gutter Runners (200)
10 x Stormvermin (140)
- Halberd & Shield
10 x Stormvermin (140)
- Halberd & Shield
1 x Warp Grinder Weapon Team (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000

Plenty of deepstrike shenanigans. I have some choice here on who brings who along, could even put the Stormvermin in a unit of 20 to go along with the Warpgnaw. Deceiver puts the Warlord wherever he's needed as suggested, could drop him for something else however.

Other option consists of removing the GR's for an Arch-Warlock (Or Grey Seer)+BW & Cogs, along with a single Warlord on foot and a Priest (or take the extra CP).

Curious to see how it works out. Appreciate all the advice that's been given. Excited to actually try out a different approach to Skaven. I feel like I need to practice movement phase now.

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