AoS 2 - Clan Verminus / Skaven Discussion

[robbobobo]

3 hours ago, Mayple said:

We got buffed in aos2, but it has mostly gone under the radar.

Forgive my ignorance and/or cynicism but I may have missed this memo. Remind me in what ways they were buffed? (I'm actually genuinely interested as it will help those like myself)

[Reeve]

Mostly because of the improvements to the Chaos Grand Alliance. Our biggest weakness in GBH 2017 was our susceptibility to Battleshock, which in AoS 2.0 can be circumvented largely with the Crown of Conquest (no battleshock for anything within 6"). The general improvements to Grand Alliance Chaos also have some other benefits. In short, the improvement the traits and, in my opion,  that singular artefact are the most important improvements. 

The fact that other characters can use command abilities makes it more viable to run multiple characters, who have also been made a bit more resilient with the 'look out sir' benefit. 

[Mayple]

11 hours ago, robbobobo said:

Forgive my ignorance and/or cynicism but I may have missed this memo. Remind me in what ways they were buffed? (I'm actually genuinely interested as it will help those like myself)

What @Reeve said.

We received:

- 3 new incredibly useful command abilities.

- Access to all the realm artifacts.

- Access to battleshock immunity (crown of conquest, inspiring presence)

- Point drops across the board. 

- Now one of the few factions with access to 40 models for 200 points, clanrats/giant rats, since prices went up for everyone else. 40 Skinks, for example, costs as much as 40 plague monks. This is the main reason I've started using plague monks the core of my infantry force. When our rabid stabby rat men are as cheap as their helpless chaff, we're in a good place.

- The ability to use any hero's command ability (i admit, I haven't been using this much)

- Many of the new scenarios have us start much closer to the enemy than in ghb2017. This allows us to give pressure from the start, and prevents gunlines from freeshooting us for multiple turns.

 

Additionally, the recent change to the assassin proved very useful, and if realms of battle start being a commonly used thing, we have so many spellcasters who could make effective use of the realm spells. Looking at you, Arch-Warlock.

 

To put in perspective, and not considering the latest point, I have decisively won the past three battles against my regular Seraphon opponent, versus a combo (kroak, thunderhost) that I normally struggled quite a bit against, and were often unable to pull a victory just due to the overwhelming force against me. With inspiring presence, crown of conquest, and new artifacts, I really feel the change. 

For the first time in a long time, I am forced to consider not how to win, but how I can be defeated A battletome would push us up into top-tier levels. I have no doubt about it.

 

My battle report a few pages back illustrates this, if you're looking for hard evidence

Edited August 6, 2018 by Mayple

[AliKing]

On 8/5/2018 at 9:44 PM, Mayple said:

People don't appreciate Skaven like they should. But they will. Oh yes, they will!  We got buffed in aos2, but it has mostly gone under the radar. Make no mistake, skaven armies are no push-overs if played correctly, and will surprise most opponents one way or another. 

Do elaborate on how it went. We're always happy to hear how other Skaven players play around here. 

Will do, I won 4 lost 1  and i finished 11th overall out of just under 100. Will hopefully get round to doing a write up of it but in the mean time my list was as below:

ClanStain-Blackout.pdf

[robbobobo]

18 minutes ago, AliKing said:

Will do, I won 4 lost 1  and i finished 11th overall out of just under 100. Will hopefully get round to doing a write up of it but in the mean time my list was as below:

ClanStain-Blackout.pdf

I do like this list, especially the VL Warbringer. If you don't manage to do a write up would you be able to go over anything notable about the list and/or things you would change for the foreseeable future?

[AliKing]

4 minutes ago, robbobobo said:

I do like this list, especially the VL Warbringer. If you don't manage to do a write up would you be able to go over anything notable about the list and/or things you would change for the foreseeable future?

one thing i would change and try to fit in would be to drop 50pts so i start the game with a command point, as vs heavy shooting armies that i faced running away first turn was an issue.

Edited August 7, 2018 by AliKing

[nmehlbye]

@AliKing Can you put up your list again? Just picked up a large amount of rats

Is it at all possible to make a 1000 points list that contains Thanquol and Bonripper? If so what should be in that army?

Thanks guys.

[Mayple]

29 minutes ago, nmehlbye said:

@AliKing Can you put up your list again? Just picked up a large amount of rats

Is it at all possible to make a 1000 points list that contains Thanquol and Bonripper? If so what should be in that army?

Thanks guys.

Thanquol + 3x40 clanrats would work pretty nicely, since few things can deal with that amount of wounds in a 1000 pts game. 

For a more nuanced list, minimizing the clanrats (2x20) and using the freed up points to give yourself more specialized tools is also a valid approach, although far more affected by personal preference. For example, I would personally be looking to squeeze gutter runners and plague monks in there, since they're amazing, but the ratio would require some experimenting. If in doubt, Gutter Runners wins you games

Good to note is that Thanquol is not a monster, so he benefits from "look out sir"

 

tl;dr: Thanquol can work in 1000 pts games.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Mayple

[Mayple]

Speaking of Thanquol. Gonna be trying this list today against the Seraphon player. Don't know his list, which realm, or what scenario yet  Trying out Ungors as stand-in slaves. Double arch-warlock since we get realm spells.

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Thanquol and Boneripper (400)
- Warpfire Projectors
Arch Warlock (140)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
Arch Warlock (140)
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest

Battleline
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields

Units
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
20 x Gutter Runners (200)
5 x Gutter Runners (60)
1 x Ratling Gun Weapon Team (80)
1 x Ratling Gun Weapon Team (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 206
 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Mayple

[Num]

There is no Verminus left in your list ?

 

[Mayple]

3 hours ago, Num said:

There is no Verminus left in your list ?

 

Hah, you're right ? it didn't work either.

I completely misplayed it. Thanquol went the whole game without using his warpthrowers, cast two spells over the course of the game, and didn't even take a wound because he was so out of position. His command ability is pure gold though, but the list needs tweaking. Probably dropping an arch-warlock for something.

The ungors, which are essentially a smaller unit of clanrats in stats, were very useful however. 

We played the "one objective in each corner, hold both from round three onwards to win" scenario in realm of metal with the rust plague feature. The Seraphon turtled up in his corner, and I failed to breach it, mostly due to misplacing my second wave ? Ratling guns were essential to removing chaff walls, but I might not need two. Between removing one of those and one Arch-Warlock,  two ungor units might become two full clanrat stacks. Gotta check the numbers when I get back.

 

Edit: Something like this. Should at the very least give some staying power, which I felt I lacked during this game.

Allegiance: Chaos
Thanquol and Boneripper (400)
- Warpfire Projectors
Screaming Bell (200)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
20 x Gutter Runners (200)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 255
 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Mayple

[Kugane]

Keep in mind that a chaos sorcerer can buff your stuff greatly and helps with dispelling. I would suggest one since you are likely to have a large unit alive.

[Mayple]

14 minutes ago, Kugane said:

Keep in mind that a chaos sorcerer can buff your stuff greatly and helps with dispelling. I would suggest one since you are likely to have a large unit alive.

There's also the -very- notable combo between a lord of blight (nurgle, 140) points, and a unit of plague monks. It's just incredibly difficult to squeeze in good value units alongside my core (3x40 plague monks, 1x20 gutter runners) at this point without losing out somewhere. The ability to deal with big, tanky, hard hitting monsters come to mind. By deal I mean chunk down before they mess up my infantry domination strategy ?

[Kugane]

5 minutes ago, Mayple said:

There's also the -very- notable combo between a lord of blight (nurgle, 140) points, and a unit of plague monks. It's just incredibly difficult to squeeze in good value units alongside my core (3x40 plague monks, 1x20 gutter runners) at this point without losing out somewhere. The ability to deal with big, tanky, hard hitting monsters come to mind. By deal I mean chunk down before they mess up my infantry domination strategy ?

I dont know where I read it, but I thought they were missing a keyword? Something about not being nurgle mortals on the top of my head.

 

Edit: nvm, I was thinking of the wrong unit. Really cool find! Easy to turn into a rat ogre too! XD

Edited August 11, 2018 by Kugane

[michu]

@Kugane Lord of Blights works on all NURGLE units, no MORTAL keyword needed.

[Kugane]

10 minutes ago, michu said:

@Kugane Lord of Blights works on all NURGLE units, no MORTAL keyword needed.

Really awesome! I had the nurgle miniature on the horse in mind, I forgot his name. Thank you for the info! ?

[Skreech Verminking]

6 hours ago, Mayple said:

Speaking of Thanquol. Gonna be trying this list today against the Seraphon player. Don't know his list, which realm, or what scenario yet  Trying out Ungors as stand-in slaves. Double arch-warlock since we get realm spells.

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Thanquol and Boneripper (400)
- Warpfire Projectors
Arch Warlock (140)
- General
- Trait: Cunning Deceiver
Arch Warlock (140)
- Artefact: Crown of Conquest

Battleline
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields

Units
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
40 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
20 x Gutter Runners (200)
5 x Gutter Runners (60)
1 x Ratling Gun Weapon Team (80)
1 x Ratling Gun Weapon Team (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 206
 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

where are my beloved clanrats/meatshields/slave 

??????????????????????????????????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

((((?))))

[AliKing]

Sorry for posting this up so late but he is a 'brief' overview of how i got on at the recent blackout event, where i was the only skaven player in the 96 players who attended.

First a bit of context, heading into this event I was fairly new still to AoS having only played a little over 10 games sporadically since just before the release of the generals handbook 2017. This was to be my first 'proper' aos tournament as i had done a local club one but with the fraction of the players, i have however played the lord of the rings/hobbit SBG competitively for the few years so i am used to war gaming tournaments in some aspect. Because of this i was kinda heading in blind, with a list that i thought could achieve objectives but no idea what most armies can do and limited practice optimistically hoping to win 3 of my 5 games.

Also just to note as i am doing this from memory some of the details like scenario names and opponent unit will be pretty vague, also the event was using the new realm rules however the effect of the realm was decided in the scenario pack before the weekend. Oh and i am no writer so there will be man many spelling mistakes a grammar errors, so sorry in advance.

The List

My list was cobbled together from what i had from back in the days of warhammer fantasy and crafted into what i felt gave me the most all comers list as i had no idea what most armies can do on the field (only played undead, tzeentch, a lot of nurgle and stormcasts prior and these were all before the new rules). my list was as follows.

-Grey seer (general)
Cunning Deciever

- Verminlord Warbringer

- Warlock Engineer

- Warlord
Crown of Command

 

X40 Clanrats (hand weps+shields)
X40 Clanrats (hand weps+shields)
X40 Clanrats (hand weps+shields)
X40 Clanrats (hand weps+shields)

Poison wind mortar
Poison wind mortar
Poison wind mortar
Poison wind mortar

x10 gutter runner

x20 plague monks (paired fotid blades and all the stuff)

x10 Plague Censer bearers

Game 1 vs Stormcast eternals (+skinks)

First game up and the first scenario was a game fought length ways with 3 objectives in the middle in which one of the 3 would be worth 3 point instead of one, this was randomly determined at the start of each battle round. The game would be fought in the realm of fire.

My opponent had a really nice looking army mainly made up of stormcasts, including a couple of unit of guys with bows, a lord of gryph, a couple of teachers(?), 3 units of skinks, a standard bearer and a large unit of guys with what looked like imitation jezzails with crossbows.

So after deployment i had a front line consisting of my clanrat units and then my other stuff sprinkled behind or inbetween he chose to have first turn. Turns out that big shooting stormcast unit is horribly good especially when +1 to wound is cast on them and the preceed to kill 20 clanrats in 1 unit due to a command ability and then kill 20 from another unit. other casualties from his first turn included the warlord who due to some bad placement on my behalf died from the teacher guys killing him via mortal wounds with some help of the other smaller shooting units. So before my 1st turn i had already lost the crown of command and 2 whole clanrat units to battleshock, OUCH! (pic below halfway through his first hero phase)

 

my first turn pretty much consisted of me moving up and charging the skinks with my remaining clanrat units on the flanks my plague monks went up through the center to fill the void. and my surviving 3 mortars didn't really do anything. the gutter runner also came on the board on the left near some of his bow guys. At the end of turn 1 I was trailing by 1 point and getting the next priority would help out .

I lost priority and found myself being shot at again, this time he took out my censer bearers and some of the rats on the left flank who remained due to inspiring presence from my warlock. He scored another 4 points and his stormcast line had pretty much moved up to the center to help him claim the objectives. My next turn saw the vermin lord wipe out the bow guys on the far flank in combat, the clanrats killing the skinks (couldn't  run away this time) the left flank saw the clanrat unit their engage the skinks and the other unit of bowman and my gutter runners charging but not doing much against his big bow unit. The monks in the center failed to get close enough and charge. I scored 4pts to remain 1 behind.

Again i lost priority and had to wait for my next go this time saw my opponent focus his range weaponry on the verminlord severely wounding him, combat saw very little happen although my gutterunners took a couple of casualties and ran away. he managed to score 4 points once again with the 3 point remaining on the left flank were he edged me for models after moving more units into range and stopping me from getting and closer with pile ins. My turn however saw my most effective round yet my verminlord charged his 2 teacher guys after failing to roll high enough to get to his heroes or units in the middle the plauge monks charge the big scary bow unit who got to shoot me when i charged (lucklily i had lowered their numbers a tad with magic and ranged stuff) reducing them by half. The clanrat unit on the right then charged aross the center engagning 2 heroes a combat orientated stormcast unit. This unit had been buffed by my magic from the lore of fire to have damage 2, The proceed to kill both heroes and nearly wipe out the unit. the plague monks survived the combat and took some of the cross bow guys down and the clanrat unit on the left took the objective and engaged in a even fight with the stormies on the left. I scored 4 points to remain 1 behind again as i had to abandon the objective on the right to make a move on the more valuable center objective.

Once again a priority roll in my favor and a double turn could have seen me swing the game in my favour but i lost it again (sigh). Most notable thing from his turn was that his scary bow guys wiped out the plague monks in the shooting phase (cant shoot out of your own combat now) and he managed to kill the verminlord with his other remaining shooting but not before he had slain his teacher guys the turn before.  My turn saw my numbers begin to dwindle as i could not replace the lost guys with more rats any more i continued to hold the 2 centre objectives but both of my remaining clanrat units had now dropped below 10. I did tie the game on points however after turn 4 although if i did not get the next turn i could not feesible win.

Sadly wining the roll off in this game was not to be as i lost again and saw my remaining forces in the wiped out with the engineer the only survivor and unable to get the number required to the objectives to win the game. in the end we were both nearly wiped out but not winning key roll offs cost me after a retrospectively poor deployment against this army. If i had known the capabilities of the main shooting unit i would have made sure to remain out of range during deployment so as to avoid the loss of 2 clanrat unit before the game began. Nice guy to play with a very nice army and lessons learnt ready for game 2 after having been able to eliminate all the traitors in my ranks game 1.

I will post the other games as i get them done as i seem to be waffling on more than i though i would.

[Mayple]

@AliKing Nice! Keep them coming Interesting to hear about how you come from a different competitive wargame. How do you rate/judge age of sigmar (competitively) compared to those? 

[AliKing]

6 hours ago, Mayple said:

@AliKing Nice! Keep them coming Interesting to hear about how you come from a different competitive wargame. How do you rate/judge age of sigmar (competitively) compared to those? 

I would have to play a few more events before I could pass judgement on that but I can give you my initial impressions. Also before this sounds like an outsider whiney post on aos I throughly enjoy the game and blackout and intend to do so more, this is more my critical analysis of the system in competitive play.

While I think aos as a casual/fun pick up game works incredibly well I have found that the competitive side seems a bit unbalanced and get bogged down compared to what I am used to also I think the randomness leads to certain build that can negate this.

To try and explain what I mean by that is I feel the biggest issue with tournement play is to many rules, in to many places. Basically there are a lot of list that seem to be designed around the idea of stacking so many rules and abilities on top of one another to make ultimate unit combos.

This can make boring games for me as being able to remember all the rules seems to be more important than the actual tactical play, to the point that I read an article from one of top players where he states that part of the armys trick was that opponents couldn't remember all the rules and would commit to unfavourable match ups.

On a more positive note I really like the scenarios and how they are used in competition now, as being able to think about objectives rather than just kill each other is so much more tactical and is something that is similar to hobbit sbg.

As I get more experience my opinion may change. One thing I have noticed though while looking at tournements is that they are all 2000pts pretty much. Which seems really stale to me . Where is the variaty? some armies will be better at different points values than others and it doesn't challenge people to adapt and change lists.

But I have enjoyed it so far and am gonna do a few more events and would encourage others to do so as well.

Edited August 12, 2018 by AliKing

[bonzai]

I had shelved my Verminus army with the last handbook. The loss of the clawpack and the nerfs to the banner and crown pretty much gutted it. Now I think they are at least playable again. Here is the list I'm going to run, mainly as a soft ball list for learning games.

Verminlord Warbringer w/ crown, cunning deciever 280
Skaven Warlord on Brood Horror 220
Skaven Warlord w/ war halberd & barbed blade 100
Skavem warlord w/ warpforged blade 100
20 Stormvermin 280
40 Clanrats w/ blades 200
40 Clanrats w/spears 200
40 Clanrats w/ blades 200
Allies
Warpfire thrower 70
Warpfire thrower 70
Warpfire thrower 70
Warplightning cannon 180
Total: 1,970

Is it competitive? Not even close. But it is relatively balanced. Between the crown, broodhorror, and changes to inspiring presence, my bricks of rats shouldn't implode to quickly to battleshock.  Lots of bodies to chew through with some ranged mortal wound support, a couple behemoths to throw some concentrated punch, and enough heroes to make sure all my squads have access to allegiance and command abilities. I have always loved what gnaw-gnaw and death frenzy dc o for storm vermin and clan rats. Now I might even get to use the verminlord's ability on top of it.

It has problems though. It's light on casting, but at least it has the verminlord to dispel endless spells where needed. Scaven are comparatively fast, but can be outmaneuvered on the board. The biggest weakness that I see though, is that it is really starved for command points. There aren't any battalions for Verminus allegiance to take any morethough, so cunning deciever is the best we got.

Over all it's not as strong as it was, but it is at least playable again. I'll use it as a training wheels list against new players. In particular it will be a good warm up for my wife's new night haunts. It will be nice to at least see them on the board again.

Edited August 12, 2018 by bonzai

[Kugane]

16 hours ago, bonzai said:

I had shelved my Verminus army with the last handbook. The loss of the clawpack and the nerfs to the banner and crown pretty much gutted it. Now I think they are at least playable again. Here is the list I'm going to run, mainly as a soft ball list for learning games.

Verminlord Warbringer w/ crown, cunning deciever 280
Skaven Warlord on Brood Horror 220
Skaven Warlord w/ war halberd & barbed blade 100
Skavem warlord w/ warpforged blade 100
20 Stormvermin 280
40 Clanrats w/ blades 200
40 Clanrats w/spears 200
40 Clanrats w/ blades 200
Allies
Warpfire thrower 70
Warpfire thrower 70
Warpfire thrower 70
Warplightning cannon 180
Total: 1,970

Is it competitive? Not even close. But it is relatively balanced. Between the crown, broodhorror, and changes to inspiring presence, my bricks of rats shouldn't implode to quickly to battleshock.  Lots of bodies to chew through with some ranged mortal wound support, a couple behemoths to throw some concentrated punch, and enough heroes to make sure all my squads have access to allegiance and command abilities. I have always loved what gnaw-gnaw and death frenzy dc o for storm vermin and clan rats. Now I might even get to use the verminlord's ability on top of it.

It has problems though. It's light on casting, but at least it has the verminlord to dispel endless spells where needed. Scaven are comparatively fast, but can be outmaneuvered on the board. The biggest weakness that I see though, is that it is really starved for command points. There aren't any battalions for Verminus allegiance to take any morethough, so cunning deciever is the best we got.

Over all it's not as strong as it was, but it is at least playable again. I'll use it as a training wheels list against new players. In particular it will be a good warm up for my wife's new night haunts. It will be nice to at least see them on the board again.

I would love to hear how the throwers perform in the list! Remnants of the clawpack I assume?

Skaven are in a weird place. Fully buffed clanrats can do like 14 damage per 100 points, but thats buffed, unbuffed most units hang around 2 or 3 damage instead. With things like Sequitors unbuffed (other than self buffs) dealing 5 damage/100p and skaven hanging around mostly 2.5/100 stuff, its harsh competition.

Genestealer cults just got some love though, so perhaps GW is finally giving some attention to our sneaky boys soon as well. Perhaps for gender neutrality we will finally get some broodmothers. That would be a true horror to behold I would imagine.

[Skreech Verminking]

Hi guess look what I found.

could this be the beginning of an skaven uprising.?

 

[Kugane]

8 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Hi guess look what I found.

could this be the beginning of an skaven uprising.?

 

!!! Thats really promosing!

[michu]

That's just omnibus with old stories from World-that-was. They already released Dwarf omnibus and nothing new for Dispossessed happened.