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AoS 2 - Clan Verminus / Skaven Discussion


Gaz Taylor

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@Arkanaut Admiral Greatly prefer the idea of a combination tome. It's quite clear that GW are very capable of making combination tomes that still provide distinction in builds (in our case, clans) and provide a ton of options. It's unrealistic for me to think we would ever get multiple tomes unless there was a separate new Skaven Clan released.

It would be better to just have them introduce new things for Chaos in general than fragment Skaven.

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6 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

Here’s a question; would you guys prefer to have a single Skaven super book, or for each of the clans to get their own book (with the master clan added on in each case) instead?

If you went with separate clan books, I worked out that chaos could then match order for number of possible battletomes (11 each).

I’m with Gwendar on this one.

It never felt right that the skaven where taken apart from each other at all

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A combined tome is the best option for Skaven for many reasons:

1) It removes the allies limitations which makes it much easier to build a mixed army or take what you want. Right now many of the Clans have an odd division of forces - eg Skyre are trying to run elite heavy choices as battleline.

2) Not every clan "works". Eshin are trying to run an assassins/elite force as a main army - moulder are running without any ranged support, clan rats are only in a limited clan etc.... It fragmented a lot of choices and left some clans really under supported.

3) IT means that GW doesn't have to add another few dozen models to get each clan function. Whilst this might not sound good; if GW has to over-support Skaven it means less time for other forces. It also runs a higher chance that GW will just retire some skaven forces rather than update. Also long term it means an even bigger wait. If you're Clan Moulder you could wait AGES for anything new if they were last in the list and GW updated all the other Clans with a new model first. 
With a single tome even if the "moulder" end gets a new model, any other subclan can get easy access to it without any allies limitation.

Honestly its the best all round approach to them. The only downside is that Pestilens might lose some options because they'll be rolled into the unified Tomb; however that's not a major issue really because they will gain so much more from being united. 

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Short answer - a combined tome of some sort.

But that can mean a lot of things and it just depends what we end up with as a final result.

Possibilities include :

  • Legions of Nagash style - creation of new overarching factions represented by allegiances that created new identities/styles of play for Death, but essentially all units were accessible to all factions. Also included some existing Keyword factions which may undergo development down the track like Soulblight. No new units.
  • Beasts of Chaos - 1 big allegiance but greatly expanded rules, and Greatfrays to add flavour. No new units except Scenery/Spells.
  • Gloomspite Gitz - combined select factions, a new blend of allegiance, possibly leave some out for later/forever. Lots of new units. This one is complete for a long time.

 

The pros/cons make me ask these questions :

  • How do GW deal with an aging model range?
  • How many new models/units will you get if any?
  • Once you get an update, how long before any part of Skaven gets attention again?
  • Does support of an old model range without new units/models really do much for GW's goals and encourage them to further support Skaven?

Ideal Scenario - they get 1 huge tome that includes a stack of allegiances including a combined Skaven, individual clans that work a lot better, and maybe even some new ones. Refresh of old models needing it and addition of lots of new units to all Skaven clans to make each clan work better than ever combined, and in its own right.... Likelihood? ... Not very.

Its an aging model line requiring massive amounts of refreshing and poses a tough question on how to deal with it.

GW are also very driven towards creating new things right now. They are doing away with old stereotypes and WHFB style armies and going for a more specialist feel across factions. For example, I think its great that we can run Skryre with just stormfiends and acolytes and crazy weapons... but so long as its a bit more viable rules-wise, and same for other clans. Skaven dont have to always be a horde of clanrats and a soup of clan flavour. I want to see more crazy build options that are viable.

Realistic Hope - They do something like Legions of Nagash

  • Loads of rules in a big fat book
  • Allegiances for combined Skaven, allegiances for separate clans and a few over arching mega faction/allegiances like combined Verminus/Eshin and Combined Moulder/Skryre... start connecting the clans in other ways for new pathways to future refreshes.
  • Overall make everything work
  • A few model refreshes/new units... we got the Bombardier right?
  • Scenery and Endless spells

Basically accept the rest is old for now and provide the opportunity to re-visit the overarching mega-factions in a few books down the track and provide appropriate model refreshes and much heavier expansion into new units in a "Gloomspite Gitz style update".

Breaking Skaven down into 2-3 groups makes it seem like its much more possible that they could be re-visited... whilst staying separated in 5-6 clans makes it seem impossible they would get that much attention... EVER.

1. Pestilens;
2. Verminus/Eshin; and 
3. Skryre/Moulder.

I personally would like the mega-faction refresh now, as I want to invest in a current and new model range, not something dated that i can just feel needs to be re-done, but the big combined book is probably better for Skaven right now. In saying that, anything including a single faction update would be most welcome like a Skryre book.

Last point, Skaven represent some of GW's best fantasy IP, and turning them into Skaven soup and not expanding some of their incredibly colourful clans would be an absolute tragedy. Every clan provides a fantastic building block for a future tome.

Edited by Nikobot
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4 hours ago, Nikobot said:

Legions of Nagash style - creation of new overarching factions represented by allegiances that created new identities/styles of play for Death, but essentially all units were accessible to all factions. Also included some existing Keyword factions which may undergo development down the track like Soulblight. No new units.

I feel like this would work the best as well. Have a general allegiance that is for mixed skaven/verminus/masterclan, and then 4 "sub-allegiances" for pestilens, skryre, eshin and moulder with some of their own battleline options and abilities to represent the clans. I don't feel verminus or masterclan have enough unit variety to have their own exclusive allegiances, especially if clanrats are to be battleline for every clan. Eshin is pretty lacking in that department as well though.

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Screaming Bell/Kairos Fateweaver BATREP

Same list as before except I freed up a chunk by leaving poor 'ol boneripper at home. Dropped engineer, slimmed the endless spells, added a Warpseer and 5 mortar teams.

Played Starstrike in Hysh against beasts of chaos. Committed to one side with everything. Turn 1, grey seer throws up a balewind, 32'' range vermintide hits for 8MW. Between turns 1 and 2, mortar teams put in the work, killed 24 beastmen outright plus battleshock. Free rats doin' there thing by keeping the ambush bestigors at bay. No 6's yet from the bells. By turn 3, every objective hit the opposite side. Ugh. I didn't fear though because mortar teams did their part. Oh Did I mention my opponent randomly allied in Skarbrand. Go figure. So he finally makes it across the board. 

Turn order, remained constant throughout, which helped the magic based pacing. Top of 3, roll natural box cars with my first bell. Well hot diggity. Summon myself a Deceiver, have Arch-warlock summon balewind, then skitterleap that bad boy (still atop the vortex mind you) clear across the board, on an objective and in cover. The only enemy in range is skarbrand. So I succesfully cast shackles with the archwarlock, right on top of him, land-locking him (in a triangle around the base because the sucker can't fly). I literally chained a demon. My opponent was livid as well as skarbrand who hadn't attacked yet the whole game (eventually on turn 5 would kill a mortar team hehe). 

All in all, I had a fun game but it came down to the wire as I was way outta position and barely kept my opponent from objectives by keeping points contested. It was heroes and demons in the end, just not where they should have been. Lost by 1 point.

Things I learned: Archwarlock is a bad ass but don't get cocky. He's performed well the last 3 games but his numbers will betray you soon enough. As for balewind, the greyseer is a casting monster with that. Not only is he more likely to actually summon it, but a double caster that re-rolls and starts at a 32'' threat range against hordes is filthy. If you're not worried about survive-ability that's your rat. Also shackles, its a frickin' wall. Ignore its abilities. Its filthy just as three bodies to get in the way. Try it out. For battlelines, don't engage, at all. Clanrats will die, you can't control that. But you can control WHEN they die. It worked in my favor to let the behemoths loose on weak chaff in those objective based games. Even Big Bird got to eat some ungor. Yum. 

 

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@Skavelynn Frankly as much as you can. Clanrats are dirt cheap. Their cost efficiency is even more stark at the lower point games. Numbers are what take most objectives. In addition, with a single warlord in tow, opponents will underestimate a 40 block at +3/+3 with double attacks. If you would like an actual number, conservatively, 60 (40/20) rats, one unit to hold back objectives and another for offense. Personally, I like 100 (40/40/20). Its intimidating for your opponent and you push with rats in two directions now. 

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2 hours ago, Skavelynn said:

How many clanrats would you recommend bringing in lower points (1000-1250) games? I'm used to having 120 and playing at 2000 points. A new LGS opened nearby and the players there prefer shorter and smaller games. 😅

Well I usually field 200clanrats and a few hero’s at 1250p games.

as for 1000p games I’d suggest to you what @Riff_Raff_Rascal already has written.

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11 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

Turn order, remained constant throughout, which helped the magic based pacing. Top of 3, roll natural box cars with my first bell. Well hot diggity. Summon myself a Deceiver, have Arch-warlock summon balewind, then skitterleap that bad boy (still atop the vortex mind you) clear across the board, on an objective and in cover. The only enemy in range is skarbrand. So I succesfully cast shackles with the archwarlock, right on top of him, land-locking him (in a triangle around the base because the sucker can't fly). I literally chained a demon. My opponent was livid as well as skarbrand who hadn't attacked yet the whole game (eventually on turn 5 would kill a mortar team hehe). 

In matched play (maybe other types as well) a wizard can only attempt to summon one Endless Spell a turn, so that lovely filthy combo would have to be spread over two turns. 

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35 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Drilling machine in the skaven lore?

now you’ve just peaked my interest.

It pops up a couple of times, can't remember which once now. But I'm sure its also in the one Malign Portents free story that may or may not be about Thanquol. Found it: https://malignportents.com/story/the-great-gnaw/

My mind went straight to great drills, a bit smaller in this story. Still sure there one somewhere that's driven by a skaven grew, carrying a contingent of warriors 

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30 minutes ago, Kramer said:

It pops up a couple of times, can't remember which once now. But I'm sure its also in the one Malign Portents free story that may or may not be about Thanquol. Found it: https://malignportents.com/story/the-great-gnaw/

My mind went straight to great drills, a bit smaller in this story. Still sure there one somewhere that's driven by a skaven grew, carrying a contingent of warriors 

Could be, I always thought they were referring to the warpgrinder team. Never really thought it could be something bigger🤔

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14 minutes ago, Overread said:

Considering Warp Grinders and teh Skavens general love of tunnels it doesn't shock me one bit that there's a huge Skaven drill! Heck in the old lore they even had warpstone engines running rats around underground and had great ideas about their own steam tanks oneday

Do you think this is the reason why clan skyre wanted that wonderful deadly steam tank from nuln, in the end times?🤔

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They want steam tanks, zepplines - anything they can get their paws on to improve with warp-tech.

 

Also I've noticed something about GW. Is it just me or are all their more modern rats too furless! If you look at the newer stuff all the areas which are not texture fur are painted as if they are skin! I knew something looked wrong on the Shadspire rats and that's it! GW has been shaving their skaven! 

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10 hours ago, Overread said:

They want steam tanks, zepplines - anything they can get their paws on to improve with warp-tech.

 

Also I've noticed something about GW. Is it just me or are all their more modern rats too furless! If you look at the newer stuff all the areas which are not texture fur are painted as if they are skin! I knew something looked wrong on the Shadspire rats and that's it! GW has been shaving their skaven! 

Yes. Personally I still paint them as if they have fur (light brown everywhere except for the hands, nose, feet and tail).

I saw someone else do that on that thread, but to a much better result :D with dark brown. I think it was @Mayple

?

Edited by Num
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27 minutes ago, Overread said:

Someone needs to make Duncan aware that he's shaving rats with his paint scheme! Worse his schemes might be copied and we could end up with a whole generation of shaved rats!

Scheme? Sounds absolutely perfectly skaven to me ;) 

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19 hours ago, Overread said:

Also I've noticed something about GW. Is it just me or are all their more modern rats too furless! If you look at the newer stuff all the areas which are not texture fur are painted as if they are skin! I knew something looked wrong on the Shadspire rats and that's it! GW has been shaving their skaven! 

I have noticed this as well. Old skaven models had mostly fur with a few patches of skin showing, now it's the opposite. Perhaps all the warpstone exposure caused hair loss 😆

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7 hours ago, Skavelynn said:

I have noticed this as well. Old skaven models had mostly fur with a few patches of skin showing, now it's the opposite. Perhaps all the warpstone exposure caused hair loss 😆

I mean...


...At least they don't look like stunted apes anymore, so I'm fine with it.

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