AoS 2 - Soulblight Discussion

[jjb070707]

As fun as that looks to play, do you have a good plan as to handling large quantities of enemy models? That list doesn't really have the bodies to contend with objectives, and without the additional attack blood knights don't really fully destroy other elite units, even on the charge. I worry that a list like that would be playing catch up on a lot of missions. Undoubtedly it will mash through a lot of enemy models. And without a bonus to cast, I'm not sure if staking my first turn mobility and charge success on the cogs is necessarily wise. 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the concept of Soulblight and getting to have blood knight battleline, but 160 points not going to bodies in such an elite army seems like quite the mountain to surmount. HAve you tried this in game yet? If so where did you struggle in actuality? We can theorycraft all day, but until the dice hit the table its hard to really know if the lack of bodies is fatal when you have so much mobility and combat prowess. Good luck mate. Please let us know how that list fares. I think i will be attempting to get a game as soulblight in the near future as well.

[Lemon Knuckles]

Yeah, there's something a bit off about a 7-drop alpha strike army.

But I am deeply sympathetic to the idea of the list.  I imagine it's a case where the emotional satisfaction of the epicness of its wins outweighs the disappointment with their infrequency.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

18 hours ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

Yeah, there's something a bit off about a 7-drop alpha strike army.

But I am deeply sympathetic to the idea of the list.  I imagine it's a case where the emotional satisfaction of the epicness of its wins outweighs the disappointment with their infrequency.

I've won with it, sounds like a personal problem you have.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

21 hours ago, jjb070707 said:

As fun as that looks to play, do you have a good plan as to handling large quantities of enemy models? That list doesn't really have the bodies to contend with objectives, and without the additional attack blood knights don't really fully destroy other elite units, even on the charge. I worry that a list like that would be playing catch up on a lot of missions. Undoubtedly it will mash through a lot of enemy models. And without a bonus to cast, I'm not sure if staking my first turn mobility and charge success on the cogs is necessarily wise. 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the concept of Soulblight and getting to have blood knight battleline, but 160 points not going to bodies in such an elite army seems like quite the mountain to surmount. HAve you tried this in game yet? If so where did you struggle in actuality? We can theorycraft all day, but until the dice hit the table its hard to really know if the lack of bodies is fatal when you have so much mobility and combat prowess. Good luck mate. Please let us know how that list fares. I think i will be attempting to get a game as soulblight in the near future as well.

You have to kill their bodies.  You don't win on Turn 1-2.  People will wonder whether to take the first turn or to give you the first turn so they don't get doubled.  This is the problem, and it doesn't matter if it's 7 drops or not.  Most armies will want you to get the 1st turn so they don't get tabled on a double, and even if they do get the first turn, your Doppelganger Cloak and proper positioning can make sure that you don't get tabled 1st turn.  Can feel free to grab another crappy chaff unit or juggle the points around a bit, but the power is in stacking command abilities.

Of course it's not a meta-winning list, but then again, if you're a decent player you don't need a top-meta list to beat a top-meta list. 

[Lemon Knuckles]

18 minutes ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

I've won with it, sounds like a personal problem you have.

No personal problem.  Sorry if my words came across poorly.

[Deadkitten]

I've been struggling with this issue as well in Legion of Blood.  Without going all in on the Blood Keep Battalion, I just plan on going second.  But this list, in either the Soulblight or LoB variety, really really wants to go second.  I've compensated with a large unit of wolves and I've been playing EXTREMELY conservatively the first turn or two.  As Black Forest said, this isn't an early game list.  But yeah, a double turn with this sort of damage output is game ending.

[jjb070707]

Can you use the Castellans of the Crimson Keep battalion in Soulblight? Would that be worth doing to insure we go when we want to? Does the ability to hit someone from the front or a table edge allow such additional flexibility to be worth its cost?

[Honk]

On 7/27/2018 at 3:28 PM, jjb070707 said:

Castellans of the Crimson

The way I would interpret the rules, I‘d say yes.

Like you could bring legion of sacrament to any other legion, you can transfer the Castellan to Soulblight. All the pieces are legal in a Soulblight army, so no stress there with ally points and stuff...

and greatly reduce your drop count

Edited July 28, 2018 by Honk

[KoalaSnok]

1 minute ago, Honk said:

The way I would interpret the rules, I‘d say yes.

Like you could bring legion of sacrament to any other legion, you can transfer the Castellan to Soulblight. All the pieces are legal in a Soulblight army, so no stress there with ally points and stuff...

and greatly reduce your drop count

All battalions in the LoN book gain the keyword for all of the legions by being in the book. The same does not apply for soulblight. I dont have the book with me now, but i dont think the battalion is listed as soulblight. This means, per Core Rules FAQ, that a soulblight army using this battalion would have to pay ally points for ALL UNITS contained within (even units with soulblight keyword), and the battalion tax. 

If the battalion actually contains the soulblight keyword however, no problemo.  

[Lemon Knuckles]

It has Death keyword, not any Legion.  So I assume it's legal?

[KoalaSnok]

Death is just the grand alliance. All warscrolls and warscroll battalions in the LoN book automatically gain any of the legion keywords, this is why its not printed on any of them. It would be too messy. 

[Lemon Knuckles]

Deathmarch and Castellans of Crimson Keep are the only ones with just the Death keyword instead of a specific Legion.  Yes, all battallions gain all Legion keywords, but that doesn't help with regards to the question about Soulblight.  So, since Crimson Keep just has the generic Death keyword, I assume it IS legal for Soulblight, unlike the Legion specific battallions.

[haneybird]

Also, Warscroll Builder lists Castellens of the Crimson Keep and Court of Nulamia in both the Legions of Nagash and the Soulblight headings. Battalions that have been stated by GW to not be cross faction legal such as the Everchosen Fatesworn Warband are only listed in a single location, in this case Everchosen.

 

This strongly suggests that Soulblight was meant to be able to use these battalions as the same as the Legions as they are the only ones in the LoN book that contain all Soulblight units.

[Deadkitten]

It is SO expensive though.  I'm not convinced it is worth it.  But the Soulblight artifacts are pretty baller.  Plus a don't think I'm a fan of Prince Vhordrai outside of a Double Dragon list.  Which of course is doable, but 2 dragons plus the Battalion is a lot.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

I can't help but feel that since nighthaunt got expanded into a full army, that maybe soulblight will get the same treatment... eventually... Nagash may have eternity but GW does not. Then again they still haven't made armies for the two main elf factions (shadow and light) so we could be waiting a while. But given what soulblight units currently exist, as in nothing anyone runs other than bloodknights and vargheists, there is plenty of room to expand to add infantry like vampires swordsmen or living thralls and maybe make units for different creatures other than humans that have been victim to the blood kiss. It'd be nice if they got named characters as well, like say bringing back Isabella Von Carstein as a hook for old world VC fans, they could easily handwave her existing in AoS by saying her having the Von Carstein ring let her survive the destruction of the old world, plus it would be a cool lore reason to have undead armies that want to tell nagash to stick it where the sun don't shine.  But in their current state I find myself running legion of blood over soulblight for when I feel like running a vampire list, extra attacks for bloodknights and vampire lords along with a bravery debuff aura trumps the mediocre bloodline buffs from soulblight in my opinion. 

Anyone have any ideas on how soulblight could be expanded on or how to make a soulblight list comparable to what you can do with the legions/grand host?

[Honk]

36 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

how soulblight could be expanded on or how to make a soulblight list comparable to what you can do with the legions/grand host?

With the right bloodline lots of things are possible... and a necro with 40 skellis could ally in the needed bodies. No extra save, so extra squishy 

[Honk]

Tomorrow is fluff time!!!

2k List of Swift Death will include:

Coven Throne (Mist Form, scabbing plate, A.Orb)

Mannfredo (vile transference)

VampLord (pinions)

3x5 Blood Knights

6 Vargheist

Allies

2x5 Dogs

1980 points

I really wanted to grab a VloZd but rerolling 1s... for a bunch of Bks and the vargheists...and who else is going to field Manny?!

probably going against Nurgle. Will sick the knights on blightkings, maybe a GUO who will be swarmed by vargheist the rest will be beguiled and sucked dry (Surströmming challenge Style) while the wolves capture objectives...

any last tips (except cogs, don’t have them  )

[TMS]

I like the list. If I had to get a VloZd in there I think I would drop the Coven Throne and 3 Vargheists but that will change the makeup of your list quite a bit. And Blood Knights sure do love to re-roll all those 1s!

One idea I've had for an ally is a Corpse Cart with unholy lodestone. It's slow and pretty weak but decently cheap and could hold a backfield objective (if there is one) while handing out a 1+ to cast within 18'', although I'd rather pair that with the necromantic bloodline instead.

Good luck!

[Honk]

That’s why I went with Manny. He has some decent punch and buffs the whole army with rerolling 1s.

the coven throne is kinda backup plan with rerolling 1s for hit/wound/save and also the great beguile spell (3d6 vs bravery or unit can’t attack the throne) if I throw her into a big scary unit, maybe she survives...

the dogs are speedbumps if they are not wiped all the healing might help them stay in game.

I really though about Manny and Vhordrai but that just kills the vargheists since the throne is only 260pts...

well, let’s see how things end...

[Charlo]

Let us know how it goes! Starting on my Vamps soon.

[Honk]

Well, that went better than expected... sadly, I didn’t learn anything from that game other than : If your opponent brings the wrong list, it’s Hulk Time.

Played with open war cards: diagonal set up, 12“ no mans land; three objectives one in the middle one each placed freely in deployment, 1vp for holding and 3vp for consecutive. I had less points and got resurrect one unit (didn’t use). The twist was ?frenzy? +1 attack...

Left side vamp lord with 5 puppies, middle coven with 6 vargheist and right side Manny with 3x5 blood knights and 5 puppies chargeblock

he ran a Speed list: 30 bearers, 10 blightkings, 10blightkings, GUO bell and dagger, lord of rerolls and in hiding 5 blightkings and some lord of disarming. His blightkings were superfast, +1 bell, +2 from the clock, +3 from the GUO bell and run&charge (+1bell) from the tree. The kings charged like crazy 21“ through the middle on turn 1, which totally panicked me O.O

He dropped 20 hits on my vargheist and 21 hits on one unit of blood knights binding another unit with them in combat. His biggest mistake was taking the „reroll to hit“-cyst instead of the „throw some skulls and everybody gets rend“-cyst. My vargheist lurked in terrain and I only lost 2 and my knights just smiled and only one hit the dust. Counter attacks killed 2+3 blightkings.

Then my turn... Manny called out for mighty vigor, one unit of BKs retreating out of combat, fleeing with screening wolves forward charging with Mannfred and one unit BKs on the middle objective into the general. Blood Knights rolf-stomped him into the ground. Manny minced 2,5 blightkings, vargheist got minced but the other unit did nothing against my knights (3+ was too funny).

then allmighty roll off for turn 2... F-U I got double turn!!! There might have been a slight change for him if he might have gone first, but the Kings without rend have nothing against Blood Knights.

Left side unseen, some lord with 5 kings against 5dogs, vamplord and the coven throne. 

As seen in the middle, the destruction of poor nurgle. He resigned after we checked if a unit of knights with Manny and +1 attacks can maimkillburn a GUO... 2hp left, almost. The other charging BKs would cripple / delete the rest of one blightking unit, manny and the other three would laugh at the other 3 left from the unit. The 5 wolves would need to suffer a bit and hold the middle against 30 plaquebearers, but terrain would hinder a full blown charge till my next turn.

The rules for the bloodshields are pretty bad though. If he had the rending cyst his blightkings would have devestated me... I really thought about Neferata as a defensive option. No more exploding 6s, tricky.

All in all pretty brutal for nurgle, but without rend my saves were just too good and Mannys CA turned the attacks into overdrive (vargheist went totally wild). Should have positioned the BKs better to prevent getting charged but as it stands it was a slaughterfeast.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Honk

[Charlo]

Great result! Nice to see how vamps do caught unawares.

[Honk]

Thx, yes it was pretty funny. 

A good charge of Knights under command from Mannfred and vamp lord nearly wiped a GUO.

But positioning and charge blocking really is key to get things done. If you get tied up in melee things are not really fun anymore. 

The allied wolves were great, but chaff units is what really is lacking, hopefully bats and wolves and thralls or stuff will bring SB back into awesomeness!

[Charlo]

So looking at the more competitive side of things, what is a big weakness of Soulblight that we can all agree on...?

Your Blood Knights being charged of course!

Well, today I learned of a tasty little allied unit that can mitigate this... The Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass! Currently a hot topic in the Nighthaunt discussion, for a mere 140pts (basically one less Vampire lord), you get a 9" aura that forces enemy units to only charge 1D6 instead of 2D6. Essentially, you cannot be charged from 9,8 or 7" away, and even a 6 or 5" is dicey. Hell even a 3" charge has a 1/3 chance at failing or forcing a command point re-roll!

Now he only moves 6" but against first turn charges this little guy could be invaluable, as lets face it, you're going to have more drops than the enemy most of the time.

His unique spell is also excellent if you choose to bring some more Ghosty Bois to support the Vampires - giving any Nighthaunt unit wholly within 24" a free 6" move, that can be used to retreat while still allowing charges. Casts on a 6 so is pretty reliable too.

[TMS]

I'd like to get a discussion going on the different bloodlines we can choose for Soulblight armies. There's been snippets of stuff here and there but nothing focused on this particular choice. I'll start by going over my experiences with them.

Dragon Warriors: Blood Knights (and anything else hitting on a 3+) thirst for those re-rolls and charging is what we want to be doing. I've found it to be a good pick for smaller games where you don't have much access to the command abilities that boosts dice rolls.

Lords of the Night: Completely overshadowed by everything else, which is unfortunate since the von Carsteins used to be my favourites back in the day.

Necromantic: There's just something that feels good with having a +1 to casting and unbinding. Being elite both in combat and magic, you know? But every time I've used it I end up not throwing enough important spells to really make it worthwhile. I think using this with either Neferata or Mannfred (him in particular) could have potential, though. And the additional -1 to enemy bravery is always nice.

Swift Death: The one that gives Soulblight a good part of its identity, if you ask me. We go from being just another ground-pounding melee mash to something else. Flying charges in particular is nice since if the opponent isn't careful we can reach support characters hiding behind things. Going straight for the neck, so to speak. The +2 to movement is obviously great as well.

I would rank them with Swift Death at the top, followed by Necromantic and Dragon Warriors fairly even with each other depending on the context, and Lords of the Night dead last.

Have you found it otherwise?