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AoS 2 - Soulblight Discussion

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18 hours ago, Thamalys said:

Alright, here's a tentative "GHB-2020-compliant" LoB list leveraging the points drops we have been discussing. I used to run a similar list with another Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (VLoZD) instead of Prince Vhordrai, but given than we might have lost the Etheral Amulet I think Vhordrai could be a better choice. The trick with this list is the very tough General who is taking advantage of the Dolorous Guard battalion (allied from Nighthaunts). It takes a lot of effort to take him down - and because of that, your Dire Wolves - will - keep coming back throughout the game (if you have the CPs, which are a problem. You start with 2 [because of the battalion] but you really want to use the VLoZD command ability anytime you can on himself/Vhordrai). Now while your opponent either wastes timeon the close-to-unkillable VLoZD (lethal mistake) or decides to stay clear of him (wiser) you have Vhordrai with Amethystine Pinions, who is another serious threat. If that was not enough, here they come two units of five Blood Knights. This list wasn't possible before the points drops (had to take a sub-optimale Tomb Banshee instead of the Vampire Lord) and it looks quite ok to me. Not many bodies on the board (hey, we are elitistic Vampires, right?) but you have the damage in three / four different places to bring most of your opponent's units down. If you fear tough hordes, group the two units of Blood Knights into a single unit of 10 and buff them - almost nothing can stand in their way. If double buffed (VLoZD and VL command abilities at the same time) 10 Blood Knights on the charge means 60.44 (rend -1) + 15 (no rend)   = 75.44 damage; against a 3+ save (that's right...) 30.22 +5 = 35.22 damage. 

LoB_GHB_2020_1.png.b6e238ae9b41ec6aadff1ae076d3a9da.png

Can you explain how this battalion interacts with LoB as allies? Do the hexwraiths need to be allies? They are available within LoB already no? Can you even ally in battalions from other factions? Confused and so are a few of my club mates. 

 

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23 minutes ago, ACBelMutie said:

Is the Vampire Lord in Abyssal Terror allowed for tournaments after this Generals? 

 

The thing is, he is not worth the 300 points anway, isnt he?

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5 hours ago, Enwolved said:

That sounds pretty great, but I doubt that you make much use of Endless Legions, because you just dont have the CPs to do that. So I really like this idea, but it would be so great if you had the points left to buy that CP for 50 points. 

In addition to that: Do you think the Sword is better on the VLOZD?

Ressing wolfs is the goal every game I think. Only when you can secure point by it.

Remember thathexwraiths are allies there so neither endless legions, nor gravesite healing works onthem

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1 hour ago, Enwolved said:

The thing is, he is not worth the 300 points anway, isnt he?

No. If you take him is for his spell. Imagine you give a unit of 10 Blood Knights 20" and 1 extra attack or 15 Black Knights with Vanhel and extra attack. They can make a deep strike. 

Greetings 

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2 minutes ago, ACBelMutie said:

No. If you take him is for his spell. Imagine you give a unit of 10 Blood Knights 20" and 1 extra attack or 15 Black Knights with Vanhel and extra attack. They can make a deep strike. 

Greetings 

Yes, of course, its pretty good, but still: Is it worth 300 Points for a spell, which has to be cast successfully and can be unbound? I doubt it.. 

Just played against Kroak again yesterday, who had +3 unbinding and 4 global unbinds... 

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2 hours ago, warhammernerd said:

Can you explain how this battalion interacts with LoB as allies? Do the hexwraiths need to be allies? They are available within LoB already no? Can you even ally in battalions from other factions? Confused and so are a few of my club mates. 

Sure. To start with, Legion of Nagash [LoN] (and Soulblight [SB] as well) can ally Nighthaunt [NH] (as per the LoN battletome). You can ally NH battalions in LoN and SB as well (as they share the <DEATH> keyword and NH are allies of both LoN and SB), but, as per the Designers' Commentary:

298056499_Screenshot2020-07-08at12_36_38.png.254fc92e53f9175a872d7028281955d0.png

which means that the Hexwraiths [HW] have to be considered as allies despite you could normally take them in LoN without the need for them to be allies. Hence, you have to pay the points for both the battalion and the HW.

Now, this does have implications with respect to the rules. In LoN or SB, this is how the Dolorous Guard [DG] works

Let's assume you have two units of HW, five models each, as your DG battalion. Your general is, say, a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon [VLoZD]. A unit of Heartguard Berzerkers manages to inflict 10 wounds and 5 mortal wounds to your VLoZD. You roll 15 dice and get 2 rolls of one the rest are rolls of 2+. The two rolls of one are not passed to the DG (as per the DG rule), which means that you now roll 2 dice for your VLoZD because of the Deathless Minions Allegiance Ability. You manage to get a 6, so you allocate just the one wound to your VLoZD. Happy days!

Now, we move to the DG: in NH, the HW will get Deathless Spirits, but in this case they are allies, so they don't benefit from that ability and have to take those 13 wounds. In order not to wipe out one of the two units of HW (remember: you can't bring them back via Endless Legions as they are allies!) you allocate 6 wound to a unit of HW and 7 wound to the other unit of HW in the DG. The first units loses 3 models and the other unit loses 3 models and has one model on one wound. Ouch. BUT...

Let's assume you now have the turn (rule n.1 : NEVER get double turned if you play Death...). In the previous turn, your VLoZD managed to slay at least a model (of course) so he would have healed that wound because of the Hunger. If you have taken 3 or more wounds, consider drinking from your Chalice of Blood as well. Next, your VLoZD casts Vile Transference on the Heartguard Berzerkers: it goes off, it's not unbound and you inflict 1 mortal wound to them which they don't save. As per the Vile Transference rule, you can now heal that HW which was on one wound back to full. This works because Vile Transference works on allies as well! Now, your VLoZD uses it's Deathly Invocation ability twice (he can because that's an ability on his Warscroll which is not specific to the Allegiance!). Once on the first unit of HW - you roll a 6; happy days, you can bring back a HW. For the second unit you roll a 2 - sadly, that's not enough to bring back a HW as they have two wound each. Note that ALL the other characters in your army can use their Deathly Invocation on the HW: Vampire Lord, Neferata, Coven Throne, Necromancer... you see how filthy this is. Not only it's very hard to bring down a VLoZD with virtually 34 wounds that continuously heal, but bringing down the HW is also tough (4+ unreadable save + Deathly Invocation + Vile Transference). You can't heal the HW using the gravesites, though, as that's an allegiance ability while in this case Has are treated as allies.

Hope this makes sense?

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Keep in mind, that you have to use Deathly Invocation at the start of your hero phase though, so before you cast spells. 

But hell yes, its indeed pretty good!

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Posted (edited)

Soulblight getting some fun with cheaper blood knights and anvil of apotheosis fun eh? Well damn... now I'm gonna need to repair my dragon knight blood knights I already made and work out how to convert up some more. Finding a kit to convert that's less prone to snapping would be very nice.

 

Edit: I'm wondering actually if Kavalos deathriders wouldn't work, undead horsies and it would be easy enough to pop some vampirey looking dudes atop them.

Edited by Lightbox

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On 7/7/2020 at 4:07 PM, Thamalys said:

Alright, here's a tentative "GHB-2020-compliant" LoB list leveraging the points drops we have been discussing. I used to run a similar list with another Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (VLoZD) instead of Prince Vhordrai, but given than we might have lost the Etheral Amulet I think Vhordrai could be a better choice. The trick with this list is the very tough General who is taking advantage of the Dolorous Guard battalion (allied from Nighthaunts). It takes a lot of effort to take him down - and because of that, your Dire Wolves - will - keep coming back throughout the game (if you have the CPs, which are a problem. You start with 2 [because of the battalion] but you really want to use the VLoZD command ability anytime you can on himself/Vhordrai). Now while your opponent either wastes timeon the close-to-unkillable VLoZD (lethal mistake) or decides to stay clear of him (wiser) you have Vhordrai with Amethystine Pinions, who is another serious threat. If that was not enough, here they come two units of five Blood Knights. This list wasn't possible before the points drops (had to take a sub-optimale Tomb Banshee instead of the Vampire Lord) and it looks quite ok to me. Not many bodies on the board (hey, we are elitistic Vampires, right?) but you have the damage in three / four different places to bring most of your opponent's units down. If you fear tough hordes, group the two units of Blood Knights into a single unit of 10 and buff them - almost nothing can stand in their way. If double buffed (VLoZD and VL command abilities at the same time) 10 Blood Knights on the charge means 60.44 (rend -1) + 15 (no rend)   = 75.44 damage; against a 3+ save (that's right...) 30.22 +5 = 35.22 damage. 

LoB_GHB_2020_1.png.b6e238ae9b41ec6aadff1ae076d3a9da.png

I love this list. If I have time, I will test it using my old VC models (I´m preparing a completly new army for AOS, but I´m waiting for the next BT).

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Not exactly on topic but i just wanted to say that im going to slap this bad boy in my list in place of my usual 6 vargheists. Going to run him as my general with mist form and the goblet for extra smashyness but im rather uncertain on what bloodline. I also have the prince and neferata so necromantic would be nice but im tempted by swift death for the usual reasons. What would you suggest?
Character made with anvil of apotheosis, rocking at 300 points. chart made with warscroll designer

walach-harkon.jpg

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On 7/7/2020 at 12:19 PM, Thamalys said:

be honest. At full health and  fully buffed (his own spell + the Coven Throne command ability + the Vampire Lord command ability) the guy is downright INSANE already... do I want him to have +1 attack in LoB? Of course I do. Would that be in line with the fluff? Oh yes. Would it be sensible rules-wise? I say, probably not...  to be fair, I am quite surprised they brought it down in points. 6 mortal wounds flat on a 3+ (potentially a 2+) at full health, folks - flat. Shordemaire, for the win!

i dispute this. The breath of shyish attack of Vordhari only is good with all of his live, after this is little poor. His damage outpout in comparrison with other smash monsters of 400 p is poor (even other monsters of 280p). I only think that is good helped with the dolorous guard. You need spend 2 cp so as to make a good damage outpout.

 Furthermore, i think that we are the few factions withoutm mount traits.

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28 minutes ago, Sartxac said:

i dispute this. The breath of shyish attack of Vordhari only is good with all of his live, after this is little poor. His damage outpout in comparrison with other smash monsters of 400 p is poor (even other monsters of 280p). I only think that is good helped with the dolorous guard. You need spend 2 cp so as to make a good damage outpout.

 Furthermore, i think that we are the few factions withoutm mount traits.

i strongly disagree with this, vhordrai is one of the hardest hitting heroes in the game period.

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47 minutes ago, Sartxac said:

The breath of shyish attack of Vordhari only is good with all of his live, after this is little poor

Well, it's six mortal wounds flat until he suffers four wounds. Taking into account (1.) the Hunger (2.) the Chalice of Blood and; (3.) Vile Transference, you have quite a lot of room to manoeuvre! In my experience, getting at least two rounds of "shooting" with the Prince in the top bracket is the norm. D6 mortal wounds until he suffers seven wounds is also pretty decent, I'd say!

52 minutes ago, Sartxac said:

His damage outpout in comparrison with other smash monsters of 400 p is poor (even other monsters of 280p).

Uhm... not so sure about that. Can you give us some specific examples, please? Genuinely curious - especially about the 280 pts hypothesis!

53 minutes ago, Sartxac said:

I only think that is good helped with the dolorous guard.

I have been using him both in Soulblight and in Legion of Blood in tandem with a regular Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon - quite the threat (don't forget his command ability!)

54 minutes ago, Sartxac said:

You need spend 2 cp so as to make a good damage outpout.

I'd disagree with that. Sure, with buffs Vhordrai becomes insane, but even without he is not shabby at all. Against a 4+ save, at full health, on the charge, but with no buffs whatsoever (not even his own spell!) he deals on average 14.43 points of damage. Now, that's not shabby in my book - you are deleting most big Heroes in one shot. I repeat, with zero buffs. If you start factoring in his own spell and the command abilities from a Vampire Lord, a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon or a Coven Throne, the Prince goes absolutely ballistic.  

56 minutes ago, Sartxac said:

i think that we are the few factions withoutm mount traits.

We definitely don't have the equivalent of FEC, yes... but Vhordrai is a named Hero anyway, so they wouldn't apply to him?

Having said that, this is just my opinion!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Thamalys said:

 

Uhm... not so sure about that. Can you give us some specific examples, please? Genuinely curious - especially about the 280 pts hypothesis!

 

image.png.1b02a2edfed511241fb7a110e6510d43.png

Mega Woss Maw Krusa whithout considerate factions abbilities, artefacts, upgrades of his main weapons killing enemies, any cp or spell for doing him more killeable. 460p.

Vordhrai in the blue line cost the same points but you must considerate that i incorporate his shoot of  6 moral wounds on    +3, his spell on him, the cp ability of covern throne in order to do the same damage of a standard Mega Woss. 460p (remember that we only can shoot one time for round while we fight two times in a rount)

Frostlors on stonehorn only with the mount trait and charge do the same damage for 400p.

Bloddthirster of fury of 270p whitout faction abilities, artefacts, etc do similar damage than a standard Vordhrai in a charge (purple line).

 

 

Edited by Sartxac

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Posted (edited)

Why is the coven thrones command ability so important? You get the first turn if the dice roll is tied, extremely circumstantial and rarely happens in any games I have had in the last two years.

For the record I am a Vhordrai fan and consider him to be head and shoulders above a regular VLOZD especially now ethereal amulet is not a thing.

Edited by El Syf

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@El Syf, that's the old CA for the coven throne. The new one gives re-roll of 1s on hit, wound and save rolls.

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8 minutes ago, TMS said:

@El Syf, that's the old CA for the coven throne. The new one gives re-roll of 1s on hit, wound and save rolls.

Games Workshop need to update the link for the warcsroll then! On the community site the link takes you straight to the old one!

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4 minutes ago, El Syf said:

Games Workshop need to update the link for the warcsroll then! On the community site the link takes you straight to the old one!

Yeah, I don't know what's up with that. The one on GW is the same as it was in that old Grand Alliance Death book. The warscroll in the LoN book has the new CA.

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Thanks never really looked at it before and just assumed the warscroll on the website would be correct!

2 minutes ago, TMS said:

Yeah, I don't know what's up with that. The one on GW is the same as it was in that old Grand Alliance Death book. The warscroll in the LoN book has the new CA.

 

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4 minutes ago, TMS said:

Yeah, I don't know what's up with that. The one on GW is the same as it was in that old Grand Alliance Death book.

Uh - really weird indeed (and massively confusing!)

**

Thanks @Sartxac for the stats - really interesting!

The comparison with the Bloodthirster of Unfettered fury is fair: as opposed to the Prince, he's not a caster and he has a 4+ save (instead of a 3+). 

The comparison with the Frostlord on Stonehorn and the Megaboss on Maw-krusha gets more intriguing...

- Frostlord on Stonehorn: it does not fly (huge). He's not a caster. 60 pts less than the prince.

- Megaboss on Maw-krusha: he's not a caster. Same price as the Prince.

One big difference re: these three lads above... they don't have an in-built 6+ shrug, they don't have the Hunger or the Chalice of Blood (huge) and they are not casters. If you can't kill Vhordrai in one turn, you are in big trouble, as the next hero phase (again: never get double turned if you play DEATH!) he can heal up to 10 wounds (yes, statistically more like 4, but hey).

Damage-wise, according to experience I'd say that the Prince can shrug off a pesky Bloodthirster, it can maybe survive a Stonehorn charge (mistic shield and/or Neferata's Dark Mist spell can do wonders [not many will have access to unrendable saves after the new GHB! No Etheral Amulet anymore!]) and he will be shred to pieces by a Maw-krusha, as in the Whaaag! they become absolute meatgrinder.

Is the Prince failry costed in terms of points? Yes, I'd say yes. He can delete one unit / hero phase via his command ability (always bring a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon with him... the dynamic duo is quite something...) before you even move - bonkers.

Broadly speaking, I don't think the lack of damage is the problem with Soulblight. The issue is that the entire army is a bit of a glass cannon - and in an objective-based game, having very little resilience is a massive issue...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Thamalys said:

Uh - really weird indeed (and massively confusing!)

**

Thanks @Sartxac for the stats - really interesting!

The comparison with the Bloodthirster of Unfettered fury is fair: as opposed to the Prince, he's not a caster and he has a 4+ save (instead of a 3+). 

The comparison with the Frostlord on Stonehorn and the Megaboss on Maw-krusha gets more intriguing...

- Frostlord on Stonehorn: it does not fly (huge). He's not a caster. 60 pts less than the prince.

- Megaboss on Maw-krusha: he's not a caster. Same price as the Prince.

One big difference re: these three lads above... they don't have an in-built 6+ shrug, they don't have the Hunger or the Chalice of Blood (huge) and they are not casters. If you can't kill Vhordrai in one turn, you are in big trouble, as the next hero phase (again: never get double turned if you play DEATH!) he can heal up to 10 wounds (yes, statistically more like 4, but hey).

Damage-wise, according to experience I'd say that the Prince can shrug off a pesky Bloodthirster, it can maybe survive a Stonehorn charge (mistic shield and/or Neferata's Dark Mist spell can do wonders [not many will have access to unrendable saves after the new GHB! No Etheral Amulet anymore!]) and he will be shred to pieces by a Maw-krusha, as in the Whaaag! they become absolute meatgrinder.

Is the Prince failry costed in terms of points? Yes, I'd say yes. He can delete one unit / hero phase via his command ability (always bring a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon with him... the dynamic duo is quite something...) before you even move - bonkers.

Broadly speaking, I don't think the lack of damage is the problem with Soulblight. The issue is that the entire army is a bit of a glass cannon - and in an objective-based game, having very little resilience is a massive issue...

is a caster, ok. But he only can throw one spell for turn, i considerate this in his damage outpout. He isn't a support or good caster.

He only can heal 1d6 once time, 1 for turn if kill any model, In normal conditions only produce the half damage of other big monsters. The frostlord have +5 invulnerable save. Even this, is more durable with the protection of Dolorous Guard and can heal these spirit knights. But for this points cost i only think that he need a littel upgrades as the vampire keyword or mount trait.

 

 

Edited by Sartxac
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1 hour ago, El Syf said:

Games Workshop need to update the link for the warcsroll then!

Think about using the app, it is quite handy for quick check ups...

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2 hours ago, Thamalys said:

One big difference re: these three lads above... they don't have an in-built 6+ shrug

Frostlord on stonehorn has a 5+ shrug.

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5 hours ago, Sartxac said:

 

Mega Woss Maw Krusa whithout considerate factions abbilities, artefacts, upgrades of his main weapons killing enemies, any cp or spell for doing him more killeable. 460p. but cant heal himself, cant resurrect slain friendlies and cant cast something useful like amethistine pinions that is pure gold on the prince. 

Vordhrai in the blue line cost the same points but you must considerate that i incorporate his shoot of  6 moral wounds on    +3, his spell on him, the cp ability of covern throne in order to do the same damage of a standard Mega Woss. 460p (remember that we only can shoot one time for round while we fight two times in a rount)

Frostlors on stonehorn only with the mount trait and charge do the same damage for 400p. same thing i said for the mawcrusha applies, also he cant fly

Bloddthirster of fury of 270p whitout faction abilities, artefacts, etc do similar damage than a standard Vordhrai in a charge (purple line).

wich is not counting the shooting and the spell, so what are we talking about? you cant not use half the models abilities and expect it to perform 

 

 

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