AoS 2 - Soulblight Discussion

[Televiper11]

So I kinda walked backward into a Soulblight list without even realizing it. Over the last year, I'd picked up both the VLoF & VLoZD, plus a Coven Throne. Recently I won a lot of 12 Vargheists and Prince Vhordrai and according to Ayzr that gives me a complete 1970pt list, if I include an extra CP & Balewind. Kinda an elite list but one that also seems like it would hit like a freight train.

I recognize this list might not be viable anymore once the new tome comes so I want to get some games in. Any thoughts on this? Should I drop the Balewind and ally in some Direwolves for chaff?

[Honk]

1 hour ago, Televiper11 said:

Should I drop the Balewind and ally in some Direwolves for chaff?

You’ll have a hard time scoring objectives and the vampire on the vortex is not really great, buuuut... just go for it.

the coven is great, double dragon is cool, together a bit much. Too many CAs you’ll want to use.

a nice flock of vargheist can dish out damage, but die pretty quickly. Especially half decent shooting will wreck them...

[Televiper11]

Do we think Blood Knights will get new kits?

[KK9T]

I think they will.

[Honk]

They are included in my prayers to Nagash... 

on the other hand, what and how exactly „Gravelords“ will look like nobody knows.

the leaked picture of bat-hair guy in plate supports knightly fashion models and makes bloodknights possible.

but if they go castlevania mode and have werewolves as big cavalry... or something

so maybe just hold off on buying 10-20 or try to look for proxy fantasy vampire knights (🙊)

[El Syf]

I don't think they'll be on "normal" horses if we do. I'm so pumped for Soulblight Gravelords and that underworlds warband!

[Televiper11]

After a quick battletome perusal, this is what I've come up with. Totally see the glaring weaknesses in terms of screening off my Heroes and maintaining a strong objective presence. On the other hand, it also looks like it would hit like a hammer and maybe I just need to play to table.

Allegiance: Soulblight
- Bloodline: Dragon Warriors
Prince Vhordrai (460)
- Lore of the Vampires: Soulpike
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)
- General
- Vampiric Sword & Shield & Chalice
- Command Trait: Mist Form
- Artefact: The Saccharine Goblet
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Coven Throne (240)
- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale
Vampire Lord (140)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
6 x Vargheists (300)
3 x Vargheists (150)
3 x Vargheists (150)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
- Allies
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 70 / 400
Wounds: 103
 

Run the Dire Wolves out as an early objective grabber/distraction, while I focus on just overrunning my opponent with multiple charges. Strong spellcasting a plus too. An optimized list? No way, but for the games I play on Zoom with @Beer & Pretzels Gamer, which tend to run toward elite builds for brevity's sake, could be fun.

[HanShot First]

What new kits do you guys think the gravelords will get? I made a short list of my hopes for new kits...

1. New Blood Knights

2. New Zombies

3. New Bat Swarm

4. New Dire Wolves

5. New Half Bat Vampires like in the underworlds warband

6. New Coven Throne

7. Vampire thralls (lesser vampires)

8. Some new monster unit (no idea what this would be)

9. New prince Vordhai

[Causalis]

1 hour ago, HanShot First said:

What new kits do you guys think the gravelords will get? I made a short list of my hopes for new kits...

1. New Blood Knights

2. New Zombies

3. New Bat Swarm

4. New Dire Wolves

5. New Half Bat Vampires like in the underworlds warband

6. New Coven Throne

7. Vampire thralls (lesser vampires)

8. Some new monster unit (no idea what this would be)

9. New prince Vordhai

I think new Zombies are all but guaranteed, since we have seen new Zombie-Silhouttes in the Cursed City trailer. 

What perplexes me is the Underworlds Warband:

So far all other warbands consist of a Leader + battleline. But those Vampires look like they are ALL leaders (except the bat dude). So what do they represent? I think the Von Carstein looking male Vampire will be a leader option (generic Vampire Lord?). But the mace-wielding Vampire? Could be an elite unit, same with the female Vamp and the "halfbreed" Vamp could be a battleline. 

New Blood Knights I think are quite likely, since the leaked Vampire Lord with the bat-hair has a blood dragon shield.

New Coven Throne I personally don't see as realistic. A new warscroll, yes. Rather I think we will get a different kind of centerpiece model.

New beasts (Bats, Wolves, Varghulf) would be dope. But I don't know if GW wants to retain that side of ye old Vampire Counts. If we see new ones, expect a "twist" to them, just like the new Zombies have their graves on their back etc.

[HanShot First]

15 minutes ago, Causalis said:

I think new Zombies are all but guaranteed, since we have seen new Zombie-Silhouttes in the Cursed City trailer. 

What perplexes me is the Underworlds Warband:

So far all other warbands consist of a Leader + battleline. But those Vampires look like they are ALL leaders (except the bat dude). So what do they represent? I think the Von Carstein looking male Vampire will be a leader option (generic Vampire Lord?). But the mace-wielding Vampire? Could be an elite unit, same with the female Vamp and the "halfbreed" Vamp could be a battleline. 

New Blood Knights I think are quite likely, since the leaked Vampire Lord with the bat-hair has a blood dragon shield.

New Coven Throne I personally don't see as realistic. A new warscroll, yes. Rather I think we will get a different kind of centerpiece model.

New beasts (Bats, Wolves, Varghulf) would be dope. But I don't know if GW wants to retain that side of ye old Vampire Counts. If we see new ones, expect a "twist" to them, just like the new Zombies have their graves on their back etc.

Yeah but who would be the new centerpiece model? And maybe it’s a very elite army and vampires are really only the commanders. But I really think new bat swarms and Dire wolves are needed but with a new twist.

Edited February 6, 2021 by HanShot First

[Lich King]

I felt Vargheists fit the bill as a mixture of gargoyle and werewolf. Will likely not have too many new kits - just blood knights and whatever’s in cursed city. I would like new zombies and skellies/GG however 

[Slave2Chaos]

What do you think is the likelihood of new Skellies / black knights / grave guard (deathrattle) kits to go along with the release? Will they just be new one off warhammer quest sexy figs or whole new kits?

How about Morghasts? Dunno, these seem to have such close ties to Nagash. Doesn't seem very Vampire to me having them around.

Zombies seem extremely likely and there is a lot of talk regarding thralls. 

Basically I'm sitting on some black knights and skellies right now that I debating on trading and I'm just not sure if I want to. I am really hyped for finally having an interest in a death army.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Slave2Chaos

[Thamalys]

1 hour ago, Slave2Chaos said:

What do you think is the likelihood of new Skellies / black knights / grave guard (deathrattle) kits to go along with the release? Will they just be new one off warhammer quest sexy figs or whole new kits?

How about Morghasts? Dunno, these seem to have such close ties to Nagash. Doesn't seem very Vampire to me having them around.

Zombies seem extremely likely and there is a lot of talk regarding thralls. 

Basically I'm sitting on some black knights and skellies right now that I debating on trading and I'm just not sure if I want to. I am really hyped for finally having an interest in a death army.

I don't think anyone can say for sure. The way I see this, is that we're going to get some nice-looking new models for our Death armies via Warhammer Quest and that's it. Maybe I'll put some of these fancy-looking vampires on my Zombie Dragons, and that'll be it. Personally, I do not think we are going to get a battle tome and/or an associated release in the same way of, say, what Slaneesh is going through at the moment. 

Perhaps my very low expectations stem from the fact that I have learned to expect nothing from GW. On the other hand, some Death kits are ancient and I would be surprised if they wouldn't get renewed at some point, I just doubt this is that point in time.

Particularly with respect to the models you mention, I don't think we are going to get new Skeletons, Black Knights and Grave Guard. They're ok kits, especially the Black Knights (think of the crazy ancient/costly kit for Blood Knights...) and the Grave Guard. Morghasts as well, they're lovely models, if they were to refurbished them they would have done so when they released the OBR. 

I would wait to do anything until we hit what it looks like it's going to be AoS 3.0 at some point in the summer. There it lies my last hope to see a new Death battle tome this year... but then again, just my opinion. No one can say for sure!

[Honk]

10 hours ago, Thamalys said:

have learned to expect nothing from GW

That’s a good basis... 

i would not throw all hopes for a „hedonists of Nagash“ out of the window. As was said many times, the sprues are ancient, but who knows how proactively they tie in the warhammer quest minis... 

still excited 😈

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Honk said:

proactively they tie in the warhammer quest minis... 

Hopefully not like they tied in the WHU and Warcry wsrbands...

[Honk]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

not like they tied in

I said „proactively“ not „halfhearted can’t be bothered“...

 I could live with crooked unit sizes, like they did for the soul wars boxes, but please nothing like the sepulcher guard.

[Causalis]

On 2/9/2021 at 9:17 AM, Thamalys said:

 Personally, I do not think we are going to get a battle tome and/or an associated release in the same way of, say, what Slaneesh is going through at the moment. 

I'll also hold back with overtly optimistic expectations. We'll obviously get new Vampires in the form of the Vampire Lord with bat-hair and the WHU warband (which may represent either leader options or actual full-sized units). 

Then we have the "very likely" category. Namely:

• New Zombies (teased in Cursed City)
• New Skeleton Warrior kit from Cursed City
• Heroes from Cursed City
• New Blood Knights. No teaser for them thus far but the new Vampire Lord has a Blood Dragon shield and they are the only generic full-vampire unit so it would make a lot of sense to update their models when releasing a vampire army.
• Some kind of big centerpiece model. EVERY new army has gotten one. From OBR to Necrons to Slaanesh. 

Other than these options we only have whislisting. Will we see new Dire Wolves, Bats, Varghulf? Maybe. But those could just as easily be discontinued. 

 

 

[Sception]

The only thing we're definitely getting is the new vampire lord model.

Warhammer Underworlds releases do *not* necessarily imply entire new units.  At least, not apart from unit rules for the underworld warband itself, which may or may not even be printed in the battle tome.  They could easily remain a website pdf.  There is exactly nothing to say those guys imply separate new hero entries, and even less to suggest they represent multiple new units.  I'm not saying it isn't possible, but there's just no reason to think that at this time.

As for the other stuff mentioned:

Zombies.  I think this is likely, the old kit is so, so outdated.  But I won't call it a slam dunk either.  There have been many times in the past when GW introduced new, better models for an existing unit in a side game or box set, but the actual separately purchasable unit kit was never changed or updated.

Skeleton Warriors.  Same as the zombies, only even more dubious because the current kit isn't anywhere near as bad or dated.  People playing at independent stores where third party models are allowed don't generally go out of their way to buy non-GW alternatives for skeletons the way they do for zombies.  Also, we've seen better skeleton models released in a side game without any changes to the existing skeleton kit before - specifically with the Sepulchral Guard kit for Warhammer Underworld.  That said, the Cursed City skeletons are significantly more distinct from the current skeletal warriors, in a way that I agree kind of implies a new kit.  So yeah, I kind of expect one, but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't.  Or all that disappointed either, I like the current deathrattle models.

Heroes from Cursed City: Maybe?  I mean, probably not for the skeleton guy.  That guy screams "unit champion" to me, from both the model and description.  If he is a hero unit, he'll just be a "wight king".  Or maybe a "wight king by another name", with the name 'wight king' retired.  Basically I severely doubt there will be two separate skeletal fighty heroes.  What would even be the point?  The zombie guy is more likely though.  We don't have a deadwalker hero currently.  As for the other new heroes that we haven't seen yet, one looks to be just a necromancer, and the remaining two are just more vampire lords, and I stick by my statement that if there were going to be more than one type of infantry vampire hero, none of them would have a name as generic as 'vampire lord'.  Though I suppose FEC does now have two separate infantry ghoul king hero units despite one of them still being just called a ghoul king, so anything is possible.  Basically, I think Cursed City implies one, maybe two new hero types at most.

New Blood Knights: We've seen zero indication of this what so ever.  But GW has to know they can't release a new Soulblight battle tome without updating the blood knights, right?  They *know* players would throw a fit, right?  They *have* to, right?  Right?  And yet, we've seen dumber moves from GW in the past, so I'm just not willing to put this in the slam dunk category.

Some kind of big centerpiece model:  Every *new* faction has gotten one, sure... but Soulblight Gravelords won't exactly be a new faction, will they?  They'll be an update of an existing faction, an oldhammer holdover at that, with a new name.  And while every truly new faction has gotten a big new centerpiece model, exactly *zero* of the oldhammer holdover updates have seen anything of the kind.  Lizards didn't get one.  Ogres didn't get one.  Rats didn't get one.  Ghouls didn't get one.  Heck, even Cities didn't get one, and they were more than an oldhammer faction update, they were a dramatic re-imagining and re-combination of units from several different oldhammer factions in a new package with a new name.  If anything, I actively do NOT expect a big new centerpiece unit.  Sure it could happen, and I certainly wouldn't complain, but it just doesn't seem likely to me.

........

I guess the question comes down to "Will Soulblight Gravelords be treated as an update to an existing faction, or will they be treated as an all new faction in and of themselves."  I just don't know the answer to that.  Before the Cursed City preview, I would have said the former, obviously.  But the more we see of Cursed City, the more the latter feels like a possibility.  Honestly, I don't know which to hope for..  looking at them point by point:

Update Treatment Pros:

• Probably not losing any units/model kits (apart from those already in other factions).  You'll still be able to play all your current stuff, or at least all the stuff that isn't playable somewhere else.  Even losing the stuff from other units, we still currently have a pretty diverse faction with 3 named heroes, 3 large centerpiece generic heroes, 3 smaller generic heroes (more if you count mounted versions & different wight king types separately), 3 battleline units, 7 other units (a couple of which can be made battleline depending on specific allegiance), and 3 other centerpiece behemoths.  Even by a conservative count, that's 22 different units, more than most brand new AoS factions get.  OBR, for instance, only have 17 total different units, including named characters and their handful of returning models, with only two battleline options, and OBR are pretty diverse for a new AoS faction.  Fyreslayers only have 13 units, and most of those are hero variations out of the one magmadroth kit.
   
• Yeah that's only one pro, but seriously, it's a pretty big one.  A new faction treatment might result in more new kits, but could also throw away nearly everything that /doesn't/ get a new kit.  Some kits are pretty much guaranteed to stick around, mostly because they're multi-kits with units present in other factions (eg Neferata, Mannfred, Black Knights, & vargheists), but are you ready to say goodbye to some or all of grave guard, dire wolves, fell bats, cavalry heroes, corpse carts, mortis engines, coven thrones, & palanquins?  Any or all of those could be on the chopping block if Soulblight Gravelords is treated as a brand new army rather than just an update for Legions of Nagash.  We could see much of our existing armies go the way of the tomb kings. 

New Faction Treatment Pros

• Several new unit kits, where a mere update might literally only see the new vampire lord already leaked.  And if the Cursed City really is anything to go on, the more new model kits in that style the better, imo.  Fewer units to work with might not be so bad if they all look as cool as the Ulfenwatch or whatever the Cursed City skeletons are called.
   
• Rules re-work.  If they're throwing out most of the existing Vamp Counts / Legions of Nagash model line and starting over nearly from scratch, it also seems more likely that the rules will get the same treatment, with potentially more substantial changes to make the remaining units work more effectively together, rather than just copy paste job on basically the same warscrolls we've had since the compendium days.  Maybe Wight Kings (or whatever 'skeleton hero' gets called if wights in general are dropped) will get to be something other than just "vampire lords with no spells and the same CA but limited to skeleton untis".  Maybe zombies will get to be something other than "skeletons but bad".  Granted, such re-works could happen even in an update style book, and they're far from guaranteed even in a new faction style book, but they are, imo, more likely in the latter than the former.

[Causalis]

25 minutes ago, Sception said:

There is exactly nothing to say those guys imply separate new hero entries, and even less to suggest they represent multiple new units.

How is there nothing to imply this, when almost all warbands follow the formula of "new/existing leader + battleline"? Of course this is not a guarantee that this will directly translate into the Vampire warband being X leaders + X battleline. All units in a warband usually are represented in their respective army. For example the Slaanesh warband: We got a Myrmidon, a blisbarb archer, a Slaangor and the glaive lady. All of those models have units in the Slaanesh army. Same with the Ironjaws, StD, DoK, Maggotkin etc. Thus I would reason it is more likely that the WHU warband translates to some new units, rather than being a mere splash-release with a pdf warscroll.

 

 

[Sception]

41 minutes ago, Causalis said:

How is there nothing to imply this, when almost all warbands follow the formula of "new/existing leader + battleline"?

I picked out the relevant part.  Sepulchral guard didn't imply new units because skeleton warriors are already a unit.  Some alternate weapons for the sake of variety didn't and doesn't suggest that 'skeletons with scythes', for instance, were or are going to be a new unit.  The ghoul warband might imply fell bats as a future unit for FEC (though that still hasn't happened yet), but not really anything else, because crypt ghouls are already a thing.  Again, some alternate equipment for variety doesn't look like it means anything.  The nighthaunt warband might imply a new hero type (or more likely a replacement for the existing banshee), but nothing else, because chainrasps are already a thing.

Vampire lord is already a unit, including options with and without wings.  The fact that this one has a big mace and that one has two swords doesn't to me imply new separate heroes, let alone entire units, any more than it did for skeleton warriors or crypt ghouls or chainrasps.  Not that I wouldn't like to see it, I just don't see it yet.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Sception

[Lich King]

3 hours ago, Sception said:

I picked out the relevant part.  Sepulchral guard didn't imply new units because skeleton warriors are already a unit.  Some alternate weapons for the sake of variety didn't and doesn't suggest that 'skeletons with scythes', for instance, were or are going to be a new unit.  The ghoul warband might imply fell bats as a future unit for FEC (though that still hasn't happened yet), but not really anything else, because crypt ghouls are already a thing.  Again, some alternate equipment for variety doesn't look like it means anything.  The nighthaunt warband might imply a new hero type (or more likely a replacement for the existing banshee), but nothing else, because chainrasps are already a thing.

Vampire lord is already a unit, including options with and without wings.  The fact that this one has a big mace and that one has two swords doesn't to me imply new separate heroes, let alone entire units, any more than it did for skeleton warriors or crypt ghouls or chainrasps.  Not that I wouldn't like to see it, I just don't see it yet.

Agreed. I’ll go even further and suggest we already have about 6 centerpiece warscrolls across 3 kits.  Very unlikely for them to add another...,but I’ve been wrong before ...

[Sception]

One thing I think we're almost guaranteed to get is new battalions.  The current LoN book is very lacking in that regard, with large, cumbersome, expensive battalions that are hard to run in normal sized games, all but one of which require expensive special characters.  Deathmarch isn't terrible, but the rest kind of are, and most of the factions unit range doesn't have any battalions that they can be a part of.  The lack of a zombies + wolves + corpse cart deadwalker battalion in particular has been pretty glaring since all the way back in the compendium days.

[Lich King]

Ever since that teaser last month I really want them to show more. I don’t believe we’ll get anything February but perhaps a new preview of official release next month? I expect cursed city has to come out sometime late March and Vampire warband around April so possibly that time we can get a full reveal .

[Joseph Mackay]

My Wishlist for Soulblight
-keep the Legion Of Blood/Night as ‘sub factions’ with a general ‘Soulblight’ allegiance also. Each Legion would focus on specific units (Night would be Mannfred and all the ‘horror’ elements like ghouls and wolves, Blood would be Neferata and skeletons etc) [im not too familiar with the exact lore of the Legions but that seems to be roughly what they’re about]
-plastic Blood Knights, Blood Knights on foot (elite vampire infantry), plastic Fell Bats and Bat Swarms (both with much better rules)
-Vlad as a new Mortach (with an additional Legion Of ... sub faction

I don’t really have an opinion on rules for them so much, I just want new plastic models 

[Thamalys]

On 2/10/2021 at 3:50 PM, Sception said:

New Blood Knights: We've seen zero indication of this what so ever.  But GW has to know they can't release a new Soulblight battle tome without updating the blood knights, right?  They *know* players would throw a fit, right?  They *have* to, right?  Right?  And yet, we've seen dumber moves from GW in the past, so I'm just not willing to put this in the slam dunk category.

Amen to that