AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[sinksinksink]

6 minutes ago, Nevar said:

[snip]

I dunno, I just feel like our inability to do anything to improve our Wave of Terror is sadness.  At least give us a Command Ability that lets us garuntee at least one good Wave of Terror per game.  I would take a 1 use Wave of Terror over our current system any day... at least then I can use my wits and skill to make sure my decisive hammer blow lands when and where I need it, instead of just shrugging and ignoring half of the pieces that make our faction unique in my battle plans.

Totally agree it would be great to make WoT more reliable. There is an existing way to do this if you take the Deathriders battalion - I have yet to see a Hexwraith heavy list with this included. 

I agree with most of what you said, but I think you are downplaying just how important movement is in the game. I think the ability to be mobile and reposition units is the tactical part of NH, and since this is an objective based game it's not entirely about how good you are in combat (though obviously this is a big part of the game).

I think that some point reductions could improve things a lot.

[Nevar]

2 minutes ago, sinksinksink said:

Totally agree it would be great to make WoT more reliable. There is an existing way to do this if you take the Deathriders battalion - I have yet to see a Hexwraith heavy list with this included. 

I agree with most of what you said, but I think you are downplaying just how important movement is in the game. I think the ability to be mobile and reposition units is the tactical part of NH, and since this is an objective based game it's not entirely about how good you are in combat (though obviously this is a big part of the game).

I think that some point reductions could improve things a lot.

Oh no, just to be clear I think Mobility is King.  If you go find the discussions comparing Bladegeists to Grimghasts I am firmly in the camp that Bladegesists are the clear winner because of their ability to retreat and charge because that mobility is even better than the 2" reach or re-rolls of the Grims in my opinion.

I only point out this stuff, because the topic is about power creep, and while I think Nighthaunt is awesome, I think we are a solid A tier army due to the inherent mobility we have with universal flight, and a lot of our units moving 8"+ standard.  Having -only- that keeps us out of the S tier.

The thing is, there are a lot of armies that can match our speed, but then -also- have very reliable gimmicks that they can use to secure victories that we instead have to 'hope' for.  Legions of Nagash is one of those examples because they literally just have our Nighthaunt units dropped into what I consider a 'superior' gimmick system.  They have better recursion that can be very tactically used.  They can resummon entirely dead units from pre-positioned locations (which you can plan specifically for).  They can get very reliable double pile-ins with Danse Macabre.  They can get +2 or +3 to cast reliably on even a lowly Necromancer to influence the 'randomness' inherent in dice.

Basically, I think if you had two clones of the exact same player facing off, exactly the same terrain layouts, all things being equal... the Legions of Nagash player can effectively out 'think' his Nighthaunt opponent with all of his tactical features like Grave Sites and resummoning and recursion castling.  The Nighthaunt side could win... but for the most part would be reliant on finding a good 10+ charge somewhere as opposed to because he was shrewd with his faction assets.

That said, Nighthaunt have the single most reliable strength in the game which is our mobility and the ethereal save.  At the end of the day though, the rubber does hit the road and Witch Aelves with 4 attacks each make their charge into your expensive Bladegeists... and no amount of mobility will or 4++ saves will save you from that.  Or 12 MWs from an overcharged power 1 Warp Lightning Cannon.

[sinksinksink]

2 minutes ago, Nevar said:

Oh no, just to be clear I think Mobility is King.  If you go find the discussions comparing Bladegeists to Grimghasts I am firmly in the camp that Bladegesists are the clear winner because of their ability to retreat and charge because that mobility is even better than the 2" reach or re-rolls of the Grims in my opinion.

[...]

Basically, I think if you had two clones of the exact same player facing off, exactly the same terrain layouts, all things being equal... the Legions of Nagash player can effectively out 'think' his Nighthaunt opponent with all of his tactical features like Grave Sites and resummoning and recursion castling.  The Nighthaunt side could win... but for the most part would be reliant on finding a good 10+ charge somewhere as opposed to because he was shrewd with his faction assets.

[...]

Ah, apologies, I misconstrued the meaning from your post. 

I think the LoN thing is definitely an issue - there are some units that are better in LoN than in their 'native' army and that does not feel right. Grimghasts in NH are massively overshadowed by the ability to resurrect an entire unit for a CP in LoN which is a bit of a feel bad for NH players I guess. 

[Nevar]

Just now, sinksinksink said:

Ah, apologies, I misconstrued the meaning from your post. 

I think the LoN thing is definitely an issue - there are some units that are better in LoN than in their 'native' army and that does not feel right. Grimghasts in NH are massively overshadowed by the ability to resurrect an entire unit for a CP in LoN which is a bit of a feel bad for NH players I guess. 

Well it would not be, if we could reliably get one or two Waves of Terror per charge phase.

If we traded the ability to revive our units for the 'glass cannon' or offensive trade off of getting multiple pile ins... then Legions would play as a slow grind where units are coming back, and Nighthaunt would be a literal 'Wave of Terror' that either strikes hard an decisively or else misses and has to fight uphill.

For instance, what if Wave of Terror was a 7+ charge on turn 1, then 10+ on turn 2, and then 12+ only for the rest of the game?  That would make CP re-rolls to fish for WoT on turn one extremely good and would make us want to have as many spare CPs as we could at the beginning of the game.  It would also make Nighthaunt -need- to deploy with very good skill to get the most out of their early game strength, with their high mobility letting them try and stay ahead of the game as their power dwindles away.

I am not saying that idea is balanced or I would want that system... my point is in that instance there is a -game plan- I can go into a game working around when it comes to our gimmick.  It also separates us further from Legions, and if Grims had much easier means to get WoT in our allegiance... then they wouldn't completely overshadow us.  Even the Deepkin tides or the Maggotkin cycle is something you can plan around.

Nighthaunt just have nothing we can build our army or our battle plans around.

[Neck-Romantic]

I agree with this thread of conversation, it feels like our universal fly/ethereal saves are weighted a bit too heavily in both army comp/theme/playstyle and points cost as well.

Beyond a few auras and spells, NH's speed and the WoT charge are really our only 'gimmick' .. you need to plan the first 2 turns very well; taking out enough key elements of your opponents army so that your fairly supbar attrition effects can pull through.

Would be interesting to expand on our "charge after retreat mechanic" and have that be a defining trait... essentially letting us fish for WoT more #makeglaivewraithsbattleline

Edited March 20, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[dmorley21]

On 3/19/2019 at 10:29 AM, Neck-Romantic said:

I agree with this thread of conversation, it feels like our universal fly/ethereal saves are weighted a bit too heavily in both army comp/theme/playstyle and points cost as well.

Beyond a few auras and spells, NH's speed and the WoT charge are really our only 'gimmick' .. you need to plan the first 2 turns very well; taking out enough key elements of your opponents army so that your fairly supbar attrition effects can pull through. 

Would be interesting to expand on our "charge after retreat mechanic" and have that be a defining trait... essentially letting us fish for WoT more #makeglaivewraithsbattleline

I agree with all of this. I think players are starting to move toward builds that try to increase the amount of CPs, whether that's through buying them incrementally with low point lists, have battalions, using the aetherquartz brooch, and using Kurdoss or some combination of all of them; and I think that's the way to play Nighthaunt competitively. The list the placed top 10 at the recent Australian event was particularly interesting to me though I still think I like double battalion builds.

[Thenord]

7 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

I agree with all of this. I think players are starting to move toward builds that try to increase the amount of CPs, whether that's through buying them incrementally with low point lists, have battalions, using the aetherquartz brooch, and using Kurdoss or some combination of all of them; and I think that's the way to play Nighthaunt competitively. The list the placed top 10 at the recent Australian event was particularly interesting to me though I still think I like double battalion builds.

Do you have the list? Would really like to see what a competitive, double batallion NH list looks like

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, Thenord said:

Do you have the list? Would really like to see what a competitive, double batallion NH list looks like

I'm not sure how competitive my current list is as I haven't played competitively yet - just locally. But I run a four drop list that looks like this:

DeathStalkersChainguardList.pdf

I love starting with 3 command points to fish for the WoT if I feel like it's needed and I love that it's 4 drops.

Meanwhile, Ben Savva (a seemingly really good competitive player) took a Shrieker Host/Chainguard build to Masters. He had poor results playing against some of the best players of the game, but later tweeted that he thought it was still a competitive build, though I personally think Shrieker Host builds need some point drops. It's also worth noting his list came in at 1930, so he had 3 command points to start.

As for the list that finished 8th at SAGT, it has one battalion but is 1850 points so it starts with four command points. That list was:

Dreadblade Harrow (general) w/ Midnight Tome and General Trait "Cloaked in Shadow"

Mounted Knight of Shrouds

Cairn Wraith w/ Aetherquartz Brooch

Vampire Lord (ally)

10 Chainrasp Horde

30 Grimghast Reapers

20 Grimghast Reapers

4 Glavewraith Stalkers

4 Glavewraith Stalkers

10 Bladegheist Revenants

12 Myrmourn Banshees

Death Stalkers

Chronomantic Cogs

 

It's totals were: 1850 pts, 4 command points, 110 wounds, 7 drops.  You can visit AoS Shorts for more information on that.

 

My point is, that I really think Nighthaunt lists need to find a way to start with several command points in order to be successful.

 

[Rhargar]

@dmorley21

Interesting list, i like it, seems to be fun.  

But can you explain me, why do you use a Cairn Wraith, for me it is not a good choice.  What are your reasons to take it in your list? 

 

[Scurvydog]

16 minutes ago, Rhargar said:

@dmorley21

Interesting list, i like it, seems to be fun.  

But can you explain me, why do you use a Cairn Wraith, for me it is not a good choice.  What are your reasons to take it in your list? 

 

 

The battalion requires a Cairn Wratih (Death stalkers).

 

There is some tax involved, but I guess he uses the small 4 stalker units from the battalion as objective grabbers and such, while using the battalion ability for flexibility and allows a unit of reapers to counter the most dangerous thing the opponent has. Stacking the vampire and knight +1 attack command abilities. 

 

[dmorley21]

So to clarify, the list I run is Death Stalkers/Chainguard and I posted a link to a PDF of my list. The list I wrote out isn't one I have used, but it placed 8th at a recent competitive event. 

The Wraith and Stalkers are tax of running the battalion. I find the Wraith is great... as he's rarely targeted so he's a great artefact holder. The Stalkers also aren't targeted ever, so they become somewhat versatile. 

With the recent general that FEC have, I can't imagine not taking Death Stalkers. 

[Garxia]

They have finally clarifed how the Soul Cage spells works, and they errataed it in this article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/who-fights-first/

Now it's clear that affected units attacks AFTER all of our units, small buff!

[Neck-Romantic]

HUGE buff

This is amazing news.... not even last of their own units but dead last of all units, and until your next hero phase so possibly multiple rounds of combat!

This is a game changer right here. Slap soul cage on your biggest fear and swarm it with everything youve got

Edited March 21, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Cargo Cult]

57 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

HUGE buff

This is amazing news.... not even last of their own units but dead last of all units, and until your next hero phase so possibly multiple rounds of combat!

This is a game changer right here. Slap soul cage on your biggest fear and swarm it with everything youve got

That isn’t quite right.

The spell moves the affected unit into the “end” segment of the phase ie after “start” and “during.”

That doesn’t necessarily make it dead last. That depends on “you go first in your turn” and “you choose the order.”

So for example the unit you had soul caged would attack before any of your units that had also been moved into the end segment for whatever reason if its the opponents turn. 

Similarly the soul caged unit could attack before any other units in its army that have also been moved to the end segment.

[DevCake_]

Hi, pretty new player here, have only played about 3 games (as SCE) so far. I started out with the Soul Wars box, and built the SCE side out to a 1000 points army, Now I'm looking to do the same with the Nighthaunt side, and hope to get your feedback on my first draft list! keep in mind that this is trying to stay relatively cheap to buy, as I don't want a massive investment after the SW box. 

So here's the list:

 

Let me know what you think I should change up!

Edited March 22, 2019 by DevCake_

[Neck-Romantic]

@Cargo Cult

If everything else is normal and you soul cage an enemy unit; it fights last after all regular units; friend or foe.

So if you plow 2 or more friendly's into an enemy and soul cage it; it gets hit by everything first.

This is a -massive- chnage from the general assumption the Caged unit was simply the last unit an enemy could choose to activate... which if it was the ONLY enemy unit in combat then the spell accomplished nothing.  You had to engage the enemy in multiple places for soul cage to even matter, now you can isolate an enemy squad and hit it with everything youve got before it can respond (barring other shenanigans)

Edited March 22, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Greasygeek]

On 3/21/2019 at 11:21 AM, dmorley21 said:

I'm not sure how competitive my current list is as I haven't played competitively yet - just locally. But I run a four drop list that looks like this:

DeathStalkersChainguardList.pdf

I love starting with 3 command points to fish for the WoT...

 

Thought I knew the answer on this already but this comment had me thinking twice.

Can you keep rerolling a a single charge as long as you spend additional command point on forward to victory?

My initial guess is no - cause it would be rerolling the same dice more than once. Right?

[dmorley21]

2 minutes ago, Greasygeek said:

Thought I knew the answer on this already but this comment had me thinking twice.

Can you keep rerolling a a single charge as long as you spend additional command point on forward to victory?

My initial guess is no - cause it would be rerolling the same dice more than once. Right?

I've always played that you can only try it once. I just have the option to re-roll for multiple units. 

[relic456]

Correct, Core Rules say you can't re-roll a re-roll.

[MrRoff]

Also in the rules it's stated that you can't reroll a successful charge, only a failed. 

So if you charge with your grims and manage to roll let's say 8, and you're close enough to any enemy unit you must charge and can't reroll it. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by MrRoff

[dmorley21]

12 minutes ago, MrRoff said:

Also in the rules it's stated that you can't reroll a successful charge, only a failed. 

So if you charge with your grims and manage to roll let's say 8, and you're close enough to any enemy unit you must charge and can't reroll it. 

Where is that stated? The ability doesn't specify you can't use it on successful charge rolls, and I don't see it in the charge section... pages 3 and 5 respectively via the app. 

[sinksinksink]

16 minutes ago, MrRoff said:

Also in the rules it's stated that you can't reroll a successful charge, only a failed. 

So if you charge with your grims and manage to roll let's say 8, and you're close enough to any enemy unit you must charge and can't reroll it. 

Where does it say that? 

Core rules state: "You can use this command ability after you make a charge roll for a friendly unit [...]. If you do so, re-roll the charge roll"

[Cargo Cult]

4 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

@Cargo Cult

If everything else is normal and you soul cage an enemy unit; it fights last after all regular units; friend or foe.

So if you plow 2 or more friendly's into an enemy and soul cage it; it gets hit by everything first.

This is a -massive- chnage from the general assumption the Caged unit was simply the last unit an enemy could choose to activate... which if it was the ONLY enemy unit in combat then the spell accomplished nothing.  You had to engage the enemy in multiple places for soul cage to even matter, now you can isolate an enemy squad and hit it with everything youve got before it can respond (barring other shenanigans)

I see what you mean. Agree. Certainly the clarification is an improvement

[Neck-Romantic]

Lol you quoted me and I see a typo

 Embarrased.

[Scurvydog]

6 hours ago, DevCake_ said:

Hi, pretty new player here, have only played about 3 games (as SCE) so far. I started out with the Soul Wars box, and built the SCE side out to a 1000 points army, Now I'm looking to do the same with the Nighthaunt side, and hope to get your feedback on my first draft list! keep in mind that this is trying to stay relatively cheap to buy, as I don't want a massive investment after the SW box. 

So here's the list: ...

 

If you don't want to buy anything else, then this is of course a legal and playable list, but it is very low on wounds and will have trouble against anything but other casual 1k lists, but if that is your meta, all should be good.

For a more competetive approach I don't think running a battalion, especially shroudguard pays of in in low point nighthaunt armies (although very few 1k lists for any armies work with battalions). Those 5 man squads will get deleted by most things with no way to recover from healing, simply focus 5 down and they are gone for good.  

Removing the battalion and possibly one of the heroes, knight of shrouds would be my choice, and then run 15 bladeheists, 20 chainrasps and 20 grimghasts, with the guardian of souls with no artifact and the spirit torment with a midnight time, that is one of my goto 1k lists at least, nothing here is easy to remove from the table in one go, so healing can kick in, guardian babysitting reapers and/or rasps, and torment as general with ruler trait running with the bladegheists, this is heavy support and high healing output for blocks of models that are less likely to all get wiped in one turn.

I know that involves more models, but maybe something to consider if moving onwards with nighthaunt at least for future purchases. At least I hope there was something useful in my feedback, but I would also like to hear if you end up playing the original list and how it goes.