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AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

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3 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

making too much sense

Yes, too much sense for GW. 

58 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Err... I meant Limited Edition

Oops. ?

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Hi everyone!

I need your advice for this 2000 pt list before buying some figs tomorow ?

Leaders:

Lady Olinder (general)

 - Reikenor

 - Gardian of souls

- Knight of shroud on ethereal seed:

 - Spirit Torment:

 

Units:

2 X 20 Chainrasp Horde

2 X 10 Bladegheist Revenants

20 Grimghast Reapers

 

Batallion:

Shroudguard

 

TOTAL: 1890 pt

What do you think? Is 2X20 chainrasp is enough to camp 2 objectives in my camp? What can i bring for 110 more points? Is the shroudguard worth with 2x10 bladegheist? I cant choose between an shroudguard batallion or the chainguard (i know if i decide to use this one i need to start a new army list)

Thanks for your responds and sorry for my english ˆˆ

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Some of our named heroes aren't that great on the table, they look awesome but don't perform as well as they look. 

Rasps are good but squishy. They are good tarpits unit. 

Blades and grims are great, really great. 

Our best heroes are GoS, torments and KoSos. The rest are situational. Riek is a must take if you take Cogs endless spells. Taking cogs endless spells is really helpful. 

Ultimately you need to buy, build, play, rebuild lists, buy more, build more, play more games, do this over and over until you find the right formula of models that works for your play style. 

Welcome to the group. Blessings be to our Lord and saviour, praise be Nagash. ??

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Question, which of our battalions are worth taking? To my newbish eyes, the The condemned and the chainguard both seem ok but mutually exclusive. The condemned seem the more powerful of the two, but you do need a unit of chainghasts and 20 points per wound seems a bit pricey for them. Outside of that, maybe the execution horde if you are planning on using spirit hosts as your battle line, and thus kind of fall into the battalion anyway. The rest seem kinnda meh, am I missing some or is that an accurate summary?

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So The new Bladegheist Model (500th store) is a simple Infantry Model.

i can attach a video of it as proof ^^

My brother is currently in Japan and bought me the mini (pretty steep price there ~~ 40€)

her Warscroll:

 

B7629E5C-5527-486B-902F-C0190F098EC0.jpeg

Edited by JackStreicher
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Personally I prefer it this way until they fix the accessibility of rules for limited edition models.

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@Henlkhyn

Im currently trying to figure out myself what to get. The  named Heroes are the ones giving me the most headache.

They seem a bit underwhelming, what Im trying to figure out is, if we can run an effective army by just using our smaller heroes.

Using a Harrow as our genral and transporting small units of Grimghast could work.

Battalions are probably not worth the tax.

Grimghasts with support heroes are pretty effective, so go get as many as you can afford. :)

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The Shroudguard isnt bad, as you will probably be using those units anyway, and a 4++/5+++ is pretty baller. Slap shademist and/or Olly's curse and they are terrifying

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5 hours ago, grimgold said:

Question, which of our battalions are worth taking? 

OK, so my thoughts on our battalions are as follows. (warning it's a long post ?

Shrieker Host - Pros: Great bravery debuffs, really thematic, useful against horde armies. Issues: So many units in the game now have access to abilities that negate the bravery debuffs that this battalion brings that the whole purpose of the battalion becomes really situational. Doesn't include any battleline units. Includes the Tomb Banshee, which is probably our most useless hero ?

Chainguard: - Pros: Includes 2 battleline units. Includes a GoS and they're great. The benefits of the battalion allow your chainrasps to be even more efficient tarpits units, having more models revived every hero phase, especially if you take units of 40 rather than the minimum of 20. If you give the GoS the 'Beacon of Nagashazzir' you'll be reviving 2d6+3 models every turn. Issues: Due to rule of 1, only one unit will ever be receiving the benefits of the battalion at a time. It makes the battalions GoS a priority target for sniping with mortal wounds (which is easy to do with the low wound count of the model) and once he dies the whole battalion falls apart and becomes useless. The battalion also becomes useless if you can't get your 'Spectral Lure' spell to go off, so if your opponent has any plus modifiers to unbinding or can auto dispel (both of which are really common at the moment) the battalion becomes useless, which is why some take the 'Wychlight Lantern' instead, as it gives the +1 to casting. 

The Condemned: - Pros: Includes 2 battleline units. Includes a torment (which is awesome). Gives re-rolls to hit on all of your rasps, so both units can benefit at the same time. The benefits of battalion can't be negated without killing both the chainghasts and the torment, so will give you more use throughout the entire game. If you decide to max out your units of rasps as well they go from being super effective tarpits, to mild-above average killy tarpits. Issues: It's expensive at 150pts, too expensive in my opinion. As with other battalions it relies on heroes to survive to be worth it and both chainghasts and torments can be magiced off the table in a single hero phase. If you give the torment the Ulgu relic Miasmic Blade, it makes him -2 to shooting with look out sir, which helps the battalions longevity but he'll still die quickly to mortal wounds. Taking Sepulchral Plate from Syhish gives him 2 x 6++ death saves, which might be a better option depending on your meta. 

Deathriders - Pros: Probably our best battalion, who doesn't want Wave of Terror on 9+ rather than 10+. Includes 2 battleline. Includes a Black Coach with WoT on a 9+. Also all units get a +1 to their charge rolls anyway, need a 7" charge and roll a 6", no problem, this battalion has you covered. Each unit has this ability so the benefits aren't focused on a few key units, meaning that everyone can run independently if you want them to. If you take Reikenor also g and cast cogs, you have units with a +3 to their charge, which on a natural 9+ can effectively charge and pile in 15" and fight before they then pile in and fight in the combat phase. Issues: In order to make the hexwraiths viable you need to be running them in minimum size units of 10, so while the cost of the battalion is reasonable for the benefits it gets, the invest of points required is pretty hefty. So running 2 x 10 hexwraiths, 1 Dreadblade and 1 Black Coach is 1020pts, plus the cost for the battalion. So if you are going to use this battalion, then you have to build the army specifically around this battalion. The Dreadblades aren't great hero choices. They can make interesting generals with their teleport ability and then using generic command ability to teleport a unit. The hexwraith models look ****** and dated and out of place alongside everything else in the army. I have 20 left over from AoS 1.0 and am working on heavy conversions to make them fit in aesthetically. Hexwraiths are not that cost effective either, having cavalry size bases and no bonuses to attacks if charging, they are very hot and cold, they can be great against some targets and rubbish against others, they're special fly over ability is so situational that the only chance you get to use it 50 games you'll forget to do so. Also if your BC doesn't level up quickly it's not an effective unit at all, you shouldn't be charging into combat on anything under level 3, ideally waiting until level 4. 

Shroudguard - Pros: Gives super killy Bladegheists a 5++ death save. Not to expensive. Issues: The hero needed for the battalion benefits doesn't get the 5++ death save. Due to how squishy all of our heroes are and how they can be easily taken out in a turn of mildly focused magic or shooting, as soon as the hero is gone, the battalion is worthless. If they FAQ it so that the KoS, KoSos or Reik has the 5++ as well, this battalion would be an auto-include for a lot of players. No battleline units. To run blades at optimum level of efficiency you need to be take 15-20 in each unit (even in smaller size games), which can make this another expensive battalion to take, especially as you'll need to fit in your battleline units into your list as well. 

Execution Horde - Pros: Gets your minimum battleline requirements in a single drop. Makes the Lord Executioner a tough mother lover to take out, being a natural -2 to ranged and -1 to melee attacks. Is cheap to run. Issues: Neither the Lord Ex or Spirit Hosts are that great a unit. Spirit Hosts are good tarpits units, but they have no rend and with the new book only do mortals on unmodified 6s now. People get very defensive about how great SHs are but they hit on 5s, wound on 4s with 0 rend for 1 damage. They might do well against chaff units that aren't buffed, but against the majority of units in the game they flail and don't do much. The same can be said about the Lord Ex (see an earlier post for my issues with him as a hero model). This battalion works great at staying back and/or holding objectives, but to have the battalion as super tarpits objective holders, the SHs need to be unit of 6, which makes the cheap battalion not so cheap. In some metas it may work well but in most spamming SHs will not win you games. 

Death Stalkers - Pros: In my opinion this is the 2nd best battalion we have. Includes 2 awesome battleline units. One weakness of grimghasts is going against large single models, the battalions benefits give +1 to hit and wound a chosen target, no need for re-roll all failed hits, if you bring a torment to the party, as you'll hit on 3s, re-rolling 1s, wounding on 2s, while the leader hits on 2s, re-rolling 1s, wounding on 2s. Chuck a KoSos or VL command ability on the unit to guarantee that the chosen target is taken off the table and put back in it's case. The battalion benefits allow the units to act independently and won't get negated if 1 or 2 key models are taken out of action. The formation of the battalion allows you to deepstrike both units if grims while deploying everything else and doing it as a single drop. Issues: Includes glaivewraiths which aren't good. They can be used to holdback objectives but need to be in unit of 8 to have any staying power, which is investing points into units that you don't want to be using. The cairn wraith won't be doing much, but at 60pts you can allow that to pass, trouble is when you add the cairn and the 2 x 8 glaivewraiths together, you'll be spending 300pts on models that won't be doing much except helping with a bit of board control. 

Summary: So things to bear in mind is costs of battalions. You are getting 1CP, lower drop count and an extra relic. We know that a CP costs 50pts, so the rest of the battalion cost is the lower drop count, the cost of the relic and the battalion benefits. Battalion benefits that don't rely on 1 or 2 models to function are much better for us as an army, because our heroes are so easy to one shot off the board. When using battalions you either put in the units you want in an army and see if any battalions work for your unit choices or you pick a specific battalion and build the army around that battalion. Unfortunately only none of our battalion choices really let us do this without leaving out some key components, such as lacking an battleline units. 

I feel that they really missed a trick when writing the book with the rigid structure of the battalion requirements, if Chainguard was 2+ units of chainrasps for example, it would allow much greater flexibility with the list building, as it is, a lot of players look at the battalion requirements and find that it doesn't allow them to build the army they want and instead choose to opt out of having the extra relics and low drop count and instead focus on having a wider variety of units that synergise better with each other outside of the battalions special abilities anyway. Also the fact that we are incredibly reliant on heroes yet the rigid structure or complete lack of hero choices to take within the battalions also makes a lot of them situational choices to include in your army. And finally, a few of the battalions (and units) in the book feel like when writing the battletome they realised they had to make something to include the older models, but they really aren't well thought out at all and feel rushed and incomplete or just plain ineffective in the current edition of the game, which is a real shame. 

So my order of best to worse goes: 1 - Death Riders, 2 - Death Stalkers, 3 - The Condemned, 4 - Chainguard, 5 - Shroudguard, 6 - Shrieker Host, 7 - Execution Horde. 

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So I just got my Darrakar (limited edition GoS) and noticed something I didnt before; his spell allows the target to retreat and charge as well as the 6" move. Thats a huuuge buff, basically turning anything into bladegheists. 

Imagine your hexes being able to leave combat, retreat thru the enemy to cause mortals, and come back to hit them again (or something else) 

Quite happy with that!

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Well I doubt the gos could keep up, but that retreat and charge opens up a lot of tactical flexability... 

Im building mine with the lantern cuz I like the aesthetics but my group isnt full wysiwyg so long as its correct on the list :  P

Edited by Neck-Romantic

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@Neck-Romantic the spell is 24" range though, which is massive.

I've been working on my death riders 2k list. What's the group's thoughts? 

Miasmatic blade is a permanent -1 to hit. Using the 15 and 10 hexwraiths in the battalion. The GoS is the anniversary edition to give the retreat and charge ability. The dreadblade has pendant, so when the hexwraiths retreat they get an extra 3" on that movement, as the spell is labelled as a normal move of 6" and the pendant artefact gives +3" to normal moves. That gives hexwraiths a 9" retreat. If cogs is up as well it's 11" retreat, with a +3" to the charge (cogs+death riders), with a natural 9+ getting WoT. Plan to just run the GoS every turn to keep him up with everyone. 

IMG_20181020_125931.jpg

Edited by Tropical Ghost General

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Hmmmmm... that seems really low unit count to me. Lots of synergy and hits fairly hard, but would be essentially 1 clump if guys running around

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Pretty much a massive gamble list, hit hard and hit fast, rely on a 12"-15" fly movement to wreck face quickly. Using the BC and the general to bring back the lost models. It's super gamble but 2xD3 models a turn when they are 2 wounds a piece should 'theoretically' give them enough longevity to last unit the later part of the game. Ideally I'd sack off the 5 man unit and run 2 x 15 but I'm making this list super thematic, everything on horseback (including GoS who will just have standard movement) and I need the 3 battleline. I've tried doing it with 30 grims in there as well but then the hexwraiths or heroes have to get chopped and they all need to stay as they are for optimum unit size and buffing auras/abilities. If hexwraiths were 40pts cheaper then I'd be happy ?

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11 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Pretty much a massive gamble list, hit hard and hit fast, rely on a 12"-15" fly movement to wreck face quickly. Using the BC and the general to bring back the lost models. It's super gamble but 2xD3 models a turn when they are 2 wounds a piece should 'theoretically' give them enough longevity to last unit the later part of the game. Ideally I'd sack off the 5 man unit and run 2 x 15 but I'm making this list super thematic, everything on horseback (including GoS who will just have standard movement) and I need the 3 battleline. I've tried doing it with 30 grims in there as well but then the hexwraiths or heroes have to get chopped and they all need to stay as they are for optimum unit size and buffing auras/abilities. If hexwraiths were 40pts cheaper then I'd be happy ?

I still don't think Death Riders can work as the core of an army, even though it's so expensive it has to be more or less. But, hey, I'll be happy to be proven wrong!

I don't see a purpose for the unit of 5 Hexwraiths. I know it's thematic, but I'd rather have 20 Chainrasp Horde to sit on an objective. Even with the 9+ Wave of Terror, I just don't see you killing enough with that list to make such a small list effective.

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@dmorley21 the 5 hexs are soley for thematic reasons. 5 will do nothing but sit on an objective, they won't even have access to the 9+ charge as they won't be part of the battalion. I have a lot of conversion work to do for the 30 planned hexwraiths . But if I took this to a tournament, then I would 100% drop the 5 hexs for 10 grims or 20 rasps.

*Edit: I don't even think that I would take this to a tournament tbh as the thematic army, as I would want at least 1 unit of 30 grims in the mix.*

On another note, I went to my local shop to get Gorkarr, and they had sold out of the SM model by early lunchtime, but had so many ghosts left, that when I brought my 3, I was given them straight away and didn't even have to order extras and wait ? .

Edited by Tropical Ghost General

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On 10/19/2018 at 9:52 AM, Vasshpit said:

A lot of GW decisions on Nighthaunts raise my eyebrow. 

Dont get me wrong,  the range is one of my favs to date but it seems like they didn't have an exact plan when designing it. 

Examples being Dreadblades, im pretty sure these were ment as a unit and last min were decided as leaders. 

Chainghast, our only ranged unit, are sold with a hero that most never use more than one of. Odd. 

Another being the anniversary GoS. This leader is a very popular and effective unit and even multi build but they decided to release two LE... 

And now this choice. 

Still love the range and is my current project. 

 

On 10/19/2018 at 10:11 AM, Neck-Romantic said:

I agree. There are some apparent last minute shuffles I suspect; with both of these LE making me think they were scrapped at the last second.

DHarrows feel much more like an elite or semi elite light cavalry bodyguard for MKoS or Reikenor, taken in squads of 2 to 4 perhaps with wound re-allocation ala Nagash and the Morghasts.

Chainghasts also feel so awkward, both in their warscroll and their bizarre itemization, but Harrows coming in a box of two for a hero slot with no synergy between themselves takes the cake for odd boxing.

I doubt it was due to being rushed, as it seems unlikely so much would change so quickly, but yeah there's a lot of strange choices/synergies throughout the book.

Dreadblades due seem like they ought to have been a small, elite cavalry unit. It would also make sense if they were part of the Shroudguard battalion, instead of Bladegheists, which are supposed to have the least control of any unit in the army.

Chainghasts, meanwhile, seem like they should have been a special unit that could only be taken in addition to a Spirit Torment kind of like the Briar Queen and her Thorns. It also seems like the Chainghasts and ST should be naturally buffing Chainrasps and not Bladegheists.

It makes no sense to me that the Black Coach is not a leader as it features a Cairn Wraith and the spirit of a Necromancer or Vampire Lord.

And as many others have stated, it seems like the Guardian of Souls dual kit should have been a regular release. Then the LE could have been the store birthday release or could have been the 500th anniversary release with the Bladegheist character being an actual character.

But I suppose we can all wish list!

5 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So my order of best to worse goes: 1 - Death Riders, 2 - Death Stalkers, 3 - The Condemned, 4 - Chainguard, 5 - Shroudguard, 6 - Shrieker Host, 7 - Execution Horde. 

I love your breakdown, but disagree with your rankings. Death Riders just requires too many units that aren't good enough. I'd say the battalions that are definitely useful are Shroudguard, Chainguard, The Condemned. Then Death Stalkers (as it requires a weak hero and 2 weak units) and Death Riders. Then Shrieker Host and Execution Horde.

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The thing about Deathriders you need to keep in mind is getting Wave of Terror off is game-changing. It is absolutely devastating to your opponent, especially if you are charging with multiple units.

You make the WoT attacks (as worded) immediately, so you get to see how much damage is done before selecting another unit to charge with, which could change your choices. 

You know that you've rolled a WoT before moving your spooks, so you could change your target to possibly wipe out a support hero and then pile in to his troops etc.

You get to attack completely out of sequence (it is not the fight phase) so you can bypass certain enemy abilities.

You get to attack first still when the fight phase occurs, so you could potentially grind the WoT victim down enough you might not need to attack first there anymore, or possibly kill off a buff/aura character.

Sooo much tactical impact that anything that increases your chances of it occuring need to be allocated more consideration.

Edited by Neck-Romantic

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26 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

The thing about Deathriders you need to keep in mind is getting Wave of Terror off is game-changing.

This is the sole reason that I've put this as number 1 battalion. It makes an average unit like hexwraiths brutal. My last game with my Death Stalkers battalion was against bloodbound. I rolled 4 x 10+ charges (3 with a unit of 30 grims) and this was over a double turn. My opponent lost 84 wounds of models and conceded before taking his 3rd turn. The WoT is OP so anything that can help to guarantee it further is a must.

 

37 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Then Death Stalkers (as it requires a weak hero and 2 weak units)

The thing with death stalkers is that it has the rubbish unit and hero tax, but it makes the grims (easily our best unit) even better, fixing there one weakness which is large, single monsters, especially against that soul marked target. Having 2 x 30 that have a +1 to hit and wound, even against something like a VLoZD with ethereal save and mystic shield, they will wipe it off the table in a turn. I feel that shroudguard is a bit of a trap, solely because the hero doesn't get the 5+ death save as well. In my local meta, heroes under 8 wounds are regularly 1 shotted off the table with mortal and magic and shooting.

I don't think that any of our battalions are actually that great, but it's trying find a way to make our units more self sufficient. I used to run chainguard or condemned in every game when the book first came out, but as soon as those heroes get killed, the whole battalion is pointless. The battalions that aren't reliant on the single, fragile heroes, are the death riders and the death stalkers battalion. That's the only reason that I've put them higher than the others, because the price your paying for the battalion will stay with the units throughout the entire game.

But putting all of the battalion talk into context, the 2 highest placed tournament list in the UK (1st at Blackout, 2nd at GW GT) didn't have any battalions in at all. Which is the way I've been leaning a little myself tbh, as running a battalion is around the cost of 10 grims and annoyingly, you get more leg work out of grims at the moment than you do anything else ?.

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