AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Tropical Ghost General]

So two 2k games tonight in friendly play. 

Lost 1st one against lizards due to engine of the gods rolling an 18!!! Up until then was winning 16-2, but then got absolutely nuked by 2 bastilidons and 5 razordons all having 4D6 shots ?. 

Won 2nd game against LoS. It wasn't looking good until turn 3, and 20 rasps getting a 12" charge on a re-roll, killed the skeles on the objective and then burned it. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

3 hours ago, spenson said:

This is what my army currently looks like but I'm not totally satisfied and there are 40 points left

KoSos is better than KoS. The command ability is much better for all units. 

Myrmourns can eat your own endless spell. Take shackles (20pts), get your wizard to cast it. Myrmourns eat it and take D3 mortals. Your General uses RotSH to heal the D3 that die. The myrms now have 2 attacks. 

Doing those two things will take you to 2000pts. 

Beacon is OK as an artefact, but there is better options that can give you better results, look at the realm artefacts for options. Midnight tome is great, more wizards is good, the more the better. 

30 grims are awesome. Easily our best unit. SHs are pretty meh. Rasps in 10 are OK at holding back objectives, but 20 are a bit more survivable. 

[dmorley21]

20 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

It looks pretty decent but I wonder if it's worth taking the blades and their battalion when grims are just as good. Yes it's less drops but it means that you have really limited hero support and we don't do well without heroes, only a few units do and one of them is grims. By the way I love grims ?. 

Your 100% right though, there hasn't been any lists along these lines that I've seen, it's a step in the right direction.

Yeah, lots of takes on even that type of build. So many options! I think Blades with their battalion don't need other support heroes. The 4+/5++ should allow them to survive and while getting re-rolls for them are nice I think they are pretty powerful without re-rolls. I definitely could be wrong though!

3 hours ago, spenson said:

PS : I haven't thought about allies at all, but it seems that they lose a lot of stuff if they're not nighthaunt.

Overall, I think your list is really solid. I'd use the additional 40 pts for another endless spell. As for artefacts I think any of the lanterns, midnight tome, and pendant of the fell wind are really good depending on how you want to play. I don't think you can go wrong with midnight tome.

4 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

KoSos is better than KoS. The command ability is much better for all units.

Do you know that math on that? I thought the KoS would be better for something like Dreadscythe Harridans.

[Tropical Ghost General]

8 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Do you know that math on that?

Definitely not ????. But it's generally considered that +1 attack is better than +1 to hit. It's why KoS is being used so much less than KoSos, especially now that mortals are done on unmodified 6s.

[Neck-Romantic]

Only when he is next to units that do mortals, however.

But I would say the +1 attack also benefits myrmourns and also your nasty support heroes as well... dont forget your STorment and Cairn Wraith/Reikenor/Mourngul getting an extra swing for potentially 2 MW's aint bad either

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Only when he is next to units that do mortals, however.

In AoS 1.0 his +1 meant mortal wounds were on 5s. SHs were actually really good then. But as everything is unmodified 6s for mortals now, I'd rather take the extra attack that the +1 to hit. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Right, the point I was trying to make was not all the troops do mortals, must not have said it right.

Ultimatly though having an extra attack over +1 to hit is just better regardless of mortals though... as if you randomly roll high you have more damage potential

Imho I think the KoS's +1 to hit ought to be an aura and not a command point...or hes just plain outclassed

Edited September 26, 2018 by Neck-Romantic

[Tropical Ghost General]

2 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

KoS's +1 to hit ought to be an aura

100% with you on this. 

[Nevar]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Right, the point I was trying to make was not all the troops do mortals, must not have said it right.

Ultimatly though having an extra attack over +1 to hit is just better regardless of mortals though... as if you randomly roll high you have more damage potential

Imho I think the KoS's +1 to hit ought to be an aura and not a command point...or hes just plain outclassed

It would be nice if it was a "completely within" aura that costs a cmd point.  A constant free aura would be an auto-include.

That said, I will point out that the benefits of +1 to hit vs. +1 attack is very much more preference than objective better/worse.  Likewise their value is also heavily influenced by the target unit's native hit roll and number of attacks.  The Mourngul for instance benefits more from +1 to hit than +1 attack because it already has a bunch of attacks and the +1 attack literally nets you one more dice to roll.  +1 Attack on Myrmourns is clearly better than +1 to hit because you are adding 12 more dice to the pool.  The value of each heavily swings depending on target.

That said, in many situations it is the general and their play style that can heavily influence the effectiveness of either.  For instance, I use the KoS on foot with my Bladegeists because they natively have 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 3+.  With the +1 to hit, and the Spirit Torment nearby... 10 guys is as close to 30 ensured hit as one can get.  That is basically 25 rend -1 wounds.  I know that is rough Brainhammer, but I can count on 20 wounds from my Bladegeists.  Some will get saved obviously, but ten Bladegeists can very easily cut down the majority of a Liberator squad for instance if they are hitting on 2+ re-rolling wounding on a 2+ thanks to Guardian of Souls.  While giving them more attacks increases their -potential- damage... when they are doing good damage already being able to count on that damage and not be hoping for good rolls can make all the difference.

While Mathhammer gives you a good idea of what to expect, it only accounts for things that can be run 'by the numbers' like amount of dice and the like.  It cannot account for more abstractly valuable aspects like reliability created by minimizing variance.  +1 to hit does not increase damage potential, but it does reduce variation in expected damage results.  When it comes to my Shroudguard Revenants who I am specifically relying on doing their jobs... knowing what I can expect from them is more important than -potentially- having them do a bit more damage.

Likewise, a Mourngul 8 attacks.  Adding one attack to get one more chance for the Mortal Wounds is less valuable in my mind than ensuring that his other 8 attacks hit and account for themselves.  Most targets will be suffering heavily from his basic damage, the MW's are really only a must have against something with high armor.

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Nevar good points. I honestly hadn't considered running regular KoS with blades. Am going to have to work on a list to suit it now. 

[Neck-Romantic]

The same argument could aply to blades though; 10 more attacks with a 3/4ths hit chance vs a 1/6th chance on the existing 30 attacks 

Mathhammer isnt my fortè tho

[Tropical Ghost General]

42 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Mathhammer isnt my fortè tho

Mathammer isn't my strong suit either but I just did one for 30 grims, going with either KoSos, KoS or a GoS. 

So basic mathammer says that 30 grims (minus the bell dudes attacks), against a 5+ unit for re-rolling hits is:

- (KoSos) With +1 attacks - 36 save throws required. (87 attacks, 4+ with re-roll/3+, 55 hits, 36 wounds.) 

- (KoS) With +1 to hit - 34 save throws required.  (58 attacks, 4+ with re-roll/3+, 51 hits, 34 wounds.)

- (GoS) With +1 to wound - 37 save throws required.  (58 attacks, 4+ with re-roll/2+, 44 hits, 37 wounds.)

The bell dude with extra attacks would make the +1 attack the better option of the three, but it's a CP for each round of combat, so in one game turn you spend 2CP to get the same damage benefits as you get from the GoS +1 to wound aura. The KoS is a close 3rd, but again your spending CP to do it. Overall I think that in this case with grims GoS is the better supporting hero, but it will differ with different units. 

This is based on real average dice rolls and no other factors added in either. 

[Nevar]

50 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

The same argument could aply to blades though; 10 more attacks with a 3/4ths hit chance vs a 1/6th chance on the existing 30 attacks 

Mathhammer isnt my fortè tho

No, that is not the same argument.

Adding 10 attacks increases potential hits, and if everything goes according to statistical chances you will net more hits.  However, with 40 dice in play there are more variable chances per die.  Mathhammer gives you the statistical numbers on chance.  When you add 10 more dice, you are still adding -more- chance.  By improving the rolls instead of adding dice, you are reducing the effect of chance on your overall rolling.  Especially with re-rolls.  Adding more dice if everything rolls by statistics might be better... but you are also increasing the odds of rolling less than statistical and rolling more than statistical.  So you have more chance to roll worse or better than the other guy who improved his dice roll instead.  The increased potential comes with greater variance in what you might get, and if your guys with only 3 attacks already do more than enough damage as they are... then increasing potential damage at the cost of added chance to what happens can be a less optimal option.

But that speaks to the general.  Some people see increased potential as all that matters and prefer the luck of more dice.  Other people like to mitigate the effects of chance as much as possible.  Both KoS's are viable depending on which type of general you are.

[Neck-Romantic]

Going down the rabbit gole a bit here. I would still say +attacks for MW troops though. 

And honestly Myrmourns it could go either way. They kinda need some hand holding, but can really perform once you do so.

In other news, has anyone tried working a TBanshee into their lists? I really like the bravery-check attack but unsure if it would be worthwhile in my meta.

[Tropical Ghost General]

28 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

And honestly Myrmourns it could go either way.

When buffed up myrmourns hit so hard, but to get maximum buffs on the 210pt unit costs somewhere in the region of 680pts (VL, KoSos, GoS, Torment, KoS, Shackles), but then they have 4 attacks (5 if eating an enemy spell), hit on 3's re-rolling 1's, wounding on 2's, at -2 rend, D3 damage.  That's a potential of 48-144 damage, more likely to be around 55 damage after missed and stuff are taken into account. It's pretty gross but also super flimsy.

[Vasshpit]

Anyone have any "in the field input" on using mass chainghast? 

I'm looking to field 3 x 4 units?

Also, their melee is a bit confusing to me. I understand that you get an attack per each model in range but with a large unit I think this would become tricky. 

Would you attack with each model one at a time as they would undoubtedly overlap attacks and become confusing as to which model got their attacks off?

Maybe im overthinking them.

I think they seem great but they're packaged very strangely. I can't see many consumers buying multiples at that price and accumulating that many extra Guardians... ?

[Tropical Ghost General]

12 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

Also, their melee is a bit confusing to me

They are all the same unit if 2-4 are in the same unit. So they all attack at once. So when in combat measure the ranges for each model individually and then attack all at once. This will change if you target multiple units obviously. 

[Vasshpit]

@Tropical Ghost General

Guess I'm overthinking it then. Heh. 

So if you have a unit of 2 and 1 chain is in range of 6 models and the other 4 (lets say two of those are in range of both) you'd make 1 roll of 10 attacks? Yeah?

[Neck-Romantic]

Thats how I would do it

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Vasshpit that's how I've done it and had no objections from more knowledgeable players than me. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Neck-Romantic TBanshees scream is OK against low bravery. In my meta it's lots of 8, 9 and mainly 10 bravery, so the scream is pretty guff. I used to use one in 1.0 (as there wasn't much choice) and it only ever did anything to a blades of Khorne player in our local group, was garbage against everything else ?.

They should have given the TB the same scream attack as the new Briar Queen model, as she might have actually seen some play then. 

[Cursed]

8 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Mathammer isn't my strong suit either but I just did one for 30 grims, going with either KoSos, KoS or a GoS. 

So basic mathammer says that 30 grims (minus the bell dudes attacks), against a 5+ unit for re-rolling hits is:

- (KoSos) With +1 attacks - 36 save throws required. (87 attacks, 4+ with re-roll/3+, 55 hits, 36 wounds.) 

- (KoS) With +1 to hit - 34 save throws required.  (58 attacks, 4+ with re-roll/3+, 51 hits, 34 wounds.)

- (GoS) With +1 to wound - 37 save throws required.  (58 attacks, 4+ with re-roll/2+, 44 hits, 37 wounds.)

The bell dude with extra attacks would make the +1 attack the better option of the three, but it's a CP for each round of combat, so in one game turn you spend 2CP to get the same damage benefits as you get from the GoS +1 to wound aura. The KoS is a close 3rd, but again your spending CP to do it. Overall I think that in this case with grims GoS is the better supporting hero, but it will differ with different units. 

This is based on real average dice rolls and no other factors added in either. 

your maths are a bit off

29 Grimghast attacking (no leader) with :

+1 attack: 87 attacks / 65.25 hits with re-roll / 43.5 wounds done

+1 to hit: 58 attacks / 51.56 hits with re-roll / 34.37 wounds done

+1 to wound: 58 attacks / 43.5 hits with re-roll / 36.25 wounds done

 

So statistically the mounted KoS is the best choice for dmg output and since he's only 20pts more than the foot KoS, I think he's always the best choice between the 2. you get more dmg on average with the command ability, 1 more wounds, more mobility and more attacks with the steed! 

 

It's also worth noting (like you said) that the Guardian of souls gives you more dmg potential with is buff than the foot KoS and without the cp cost! When you re-roll all hit you benefit more from boosting your to wound roll. But if you only have one choice of hero and really want to kill something, you get more mileage from the mounted KoS than the other 2.

 

just my 2 cents!

[Neck-Romantic]

Yeah I was disappointed we didnt get a boosted bravery scream like the terrorgheist, either though a character or battalion, or a massed missile scream. 

Eager to nab the briar queen but nobody interested in splitting the shadespire box in my area

[Tropical Ghost General]

6 hours ago, Cursed said:

just my 2 cents! 

Yeah my Mathammer is not that strong, always happy to be corrected on that. but am glad to see it wasn't too far off ?.

I still think that the GoS is the better of the 3 solely due to not needing to burn through CP just to get the buffs, plus he's a wizard who can then heal the unit afterwards. As most players will run 1 battalion maybe 2, you never have a decent CP pool to draw from. You can go under in points but as we can't summon and summon back the points we didn't put in the table to start with, it's putting a fairly big handicap on yourself. So one single battle round of combat with just one unit can end up vaporising all your CP and I've personally found that the best thing we can be spending CP on is the re-roll charge roll, as 10+ does waaaaay more damage than a +1 attack ?. 

[Gwendar]

Anyone been having any luck with a Spirit Host heavy list? I've got a 1500pt game on saturday and am considering running 3x6 SH's, a Mourngul, Olynder and a GoS. Leaves me with 100 left for something, not interested in endless spells however.

I know the flying blenders that are the Reapers are probably best, but I decided to try for the tarpit route + heavy healing (@2k I have a ST and Vampire Lord as well). I figure with Olynders command ability (unsure if that is better over Ruler of the Spirit Hosts) and the guardian healing with Beacon It could be reasonably survivable.