Jump to content

AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion


Recommended Posts

I've said everything I have to say on the subject, there is no rule that establishes some sort of existing rule modification clause that you are applying. The warscroll explicitly says the deathless spirit ability is modified to a 5+ on WOUNDS. It does not apply to mortal wounds. You can try to argue otherwise but you are strictly incorrect. I wish you luck arguing your case in whatever tournament setting you find yourself in, but playing it the way you are suggesting is wrong by the rules. 

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 5.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Just finished my Emerald host, though I have another 10 Hexwraith making it a total of 20. Just qurious but how many Hexwraith for which general do you guys run?

I don’t know if you guys care about this stuff in this thread, but I speed painted a group of 10 rasps. I’m pretty pleased with them, even though they’re pretty vanilla haha.

on another note, I converted my nh  on ghyran style, what do you think :)? (more evil than sylvaneth) tree spirits

Posted Images

Devoted Disciple doesn't replace Fanatical Faith, it upgrades it.

 

Just like Empowering Excruciation upgrades Deathless Spirits.

 

All of us here want it to work the way you say, but based on the DoK FAQ I don't think the argument holds up.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

I've said everything I have to say on the subject, there is no rule that establishes some sort of existing rule modification clause that you are applying. The warscroll explicitly says the deathless spirit ability is modified to a 5+ on WOUNDS. It does not apply to mortal wounds. You can try to argue otherwise but you are strictly incorrect. I wish you luck arguing your case in whatever tournament setting you find yourself in, but playing it the way you are suggesting is wrong by the rules. 

Then the best thing we can do is write the FAQ team (AoSFAQ@gwplc.com) and ask for clarification. They currently have a 4-week FAQ cycle, so we will have some time to think on it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Then the best thing we can do is write the FAQ team (AoSFAQ@gwplc.com) and ask for clarification. They currently have a 4-week FAQ cycle, so we will have some time to think on it.

This is true and I hope they address it!

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Devoted Disciple doesn't replace Fanatical Faith, it upgrades it.

 

Just like Empowering Excruciation upgrades Deathless Spirits.

 

All of us here want it to work the way you say, but based on the DoK FAQ I don't think the argument holds up.

I don't play DoK, so I'll rightfully defer to anyone who does on how or why this works the way it does.

Consensus is that the Devoted Disciple is an upgrade, because it allows for both saves to happen. IE: if wholly within 12" of a general and damage is taken, if normal wound it gets a 5+, but if it's a mortal there's still the 6+. I have updated this post reflecting that.

Not going to lie, if it turns out Empowering Excruciation is intended to negate only normal wounds, I'm going to be livid and ask GW why we are constantly the whipping post for the rest of the game. It would then be an intentionally muddy rule (because, let's be honest, with the same name how can it not be?) and that's malicious. There have been many reasons to walk away from the table as a NH player lately and this would only add to it.

Seriously, if the FAQ releases and I'm wrong, the next post out of me might be asking if anyone wants to buy 280 models of Nighthaunt. Because I have other games I can go play with less frustration.

Edited by EnixLHQ
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Devoted Disciple doesn't replace Fanatical Faith, it upgrades it.

 

Just like Empowering Excruciation upgrades Deathless Spirits.

 

All of us here want it to work the way you say, but based on the DoK FAQ I don't think the argument holds up.

After looking at the Daughters of Khaine rules and designer's commentary, and then listening to Facehammer call it an invulnerable save (which I don't play 40k but I believe that is a save that is rend proof but doesn't work against mortals), I'm starting to think it's just a 6+ versus mortals still but a 5+ against normal wounds. 

That's a shame, and takes away some of the utility of the Cruciator, but the model still has play IMO. I'm planning to use it exclusively to deepstrike with 30 Reapers or 10 Hexwraiths, so I'll be choosing what I throw its shooting attack against. And I'll just have to typically not choose something that causes mortal wounds. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah its a shame. I feel it was an oversight in the DoK rule and they were presented with an opportunity to curb the power of Hagg Narr slightly and took it. 

Or it could be a conscious design decision and we'll see similar things come out of future releases also.

On a positive note I'm expecting a full new book for Nighthaunt by the end of the year, which should hopefully build on some of the positives coming out of BR Belakor. If the rumours for AoS 3.0 dropping this year are also true, it could mean a good shake up and power boost for Nighthaunt overall.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish they had given him something entirely different now rather than tacking on a conditional FNP. It's a cool model though so I'll be glad to have one. I'm actually surprised they gave him 6 wounds.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Yeknomious said:

I wish they had given him something entirely different now rather than tacking on a conditional FNP. It's a cool model though so I'll be glad to have one. I'm actually surprised they gave him 6 wounds.

Yeah I agree completely, Nighthaunt suffers from no CP generation, so I think a "support" hero with some CP generation on a 4+ would have been an auto include in most lists. Also I was not expecting that comment to blow up :D I really hope GW addresses the 5+ wound vs mortal would negation in a FAQ asap. 

Edited by Noma
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Noma said:

Nighthaunt suffers from no CP generation, so I think a "support" hero with some CP generation on a 4+ would have been an auto include in most lists

Not quite 4+ but...

20210422_234534.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

About Kurdoss...

Don't have the model because too fragile lately in the meta etc... But in the emerald host procession he might have a use now?

Giving, in a perfect world, the enemy general -1 to his save rolls with the curse and having Kurdoss in reserve with hexwraiths.

Meanwhile Olynder with her battalion on the field.

Summon Kurdoss with hexwraith bodyguards 9inch from general. If he makes the charge (potential wave of terror) rerolling hit rolls and potential juicy damage...

Lots of ifs though, if he doesn't make the charge at least he wont die in one turn with the hexes near him...

Something like this, creeping up with supported spirit hosts, bladegheists and sorrowmourn and backstabbing with Kurdoss

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (180)
- General
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome - Shademist
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
9 x Spirit Hosts (360)
10 x Dreadscythe Harridans (180)
4 x Myrmourn Banshees (70)
4 x Myrmourn Banshees (70)
15 x Bladegheist Revenants (270)
2 x Chainghasts (70)
Sorrowmourn Choir (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108

 
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, DeVDL said:

About Kurdoss...

Don't have the model because too fragile lately in the meta etc... But in the emerald host procession he might have a use now?

Giving, in a perfect world, the enemy general -1 to his save rolls with the curse and having Kurdoss in reserve with hexwraiths.

Meanwhile Olynder with her battalion on the field.

Summon Kurdoss with hexwraith bodyguards 9inch from general. If he makes the charge (potential wave of terror) rerolling hit rolls and potential juicy damage...

Lots of ifs though, if he doesn't make the charge at least he wont die in one turn with the hexes near him...

Something like this, creeping up with supported spirit hosts, bladegheists and sorrowmourn and backstabbing with Kurdoss

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (180)
- General
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome - Shademist
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
9 x Spirit Hosts (360)
10 x Dreadscythe Harridans (180)
4 x Myrmourn Banshees (70)
4 x Myrmourn Banshees (70)
15 x Bladegheist Revenants (270)
2 x Chainghasts (70)
Sorrowmourn Choir (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108

 

Cute but doesn't work. The Olynder battalion specifically states she MUST be the general of the army if using the battalion. 

 

EDIT The battalion says "in addition to the model chosen for the army general." VERY pleasee to be wrong here!

Edited by Nasrod
Was wrong, missed a clause on the battalion!
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nasrod said:

Cute but doesn't work. The Olynder battalion specifically states she MUST be the general of the army if using the battalion. 

This is not true? The new battalion allows her to count as a general, but does not require her to be your general. I cannot locate the leaked page where I read that, but Bell of Lost souls explicitly states that in their coverage of it here: https://www.goonhammer.com/broken-realms-belakor-part-6-nighthaunts/

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, DeVDL said:

About Kurdoss...

Don't have the model because too fragile lately in the meta etc... But in the emerald host procession he might have a use now?

Giving, in a perfect world, the enemy general -1 to his save rolls with the curse and having Kurdoss in reserve with hexwraiths.

Meanwhile Olynder with her battalion on the field.

Summon Kurdoss with hexwraith bodyguards 9inch from general. If he makes the charge (potential wave of terror) rerolling hit rolls and potential juicy damage...

Lots of ifs though, if he doesn't make the charge at least he wont die in one turn with the hexes near him...

Something like this, creeping up with supported spirit hosts, bladegheists and sorrowmourn and backstabbing with Kurdoss

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (180)
- General
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome - Shademist
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
9 x Spirit Hosts (360)
10 x Dreadscythe Harridans (180)
4 x Myrmourn Banshees (70)
4 x Myrmourn Banshees (70)
15 x Bladegheist Revenants (270)
2 x Chainghasts (70)
Sorrowmourn Choir (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108

 

Sorry, but Kurdoss can't. Don't expect him to do more than couple of wounds even if he throw 10+. D3=1, *sad trombone*

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Btimmy said:

This is not true? The new battalion allows her to count as a general, but does not require her to be your general. I cannot locate the leaked page where I read that, but Bell of Lost souls explicitly states that in their coverage of it here: https://www.goonhammer.com/broken-realms-belakor-part-6-nighthaunts/

OH. It says "is treated as a general in addition to the model chosen as the army general."

 

Is this the first time we have seen auch a stipulation outside of Slaanesh Invaders that allows 3 generals? Either way a battalion perk that turns on old General-locked Command Abilties or Battlelines like this is absolutely brilliant and I am happy to be wrong.

I have a game in the morning and may honestly put my ghosts on the table, holy ******!

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Nasrod said:

OH. It says "is treated as a general in addition to the model chosen as the army general."

 

Is this the first time we have seen auch a stipulation outside of Slaanesh Invaders that allows 3 generals? Either way a battalion perk that turns on old General-locked Command Abilties or Battlelines like this is absolutely brilliant and I am happy to be wrong.

I have a game in the morning and may honestly put my ghosts on the table, holy ******!

No, it exists  daughters of khaine. specifically, Morathi is always treated as a general 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've picked up my pre-order of Be'lakor and the Krulghast Cruciator today and got right to work putting him together. Let me just tell you, while it's not a frustrating model to put together pay special mind to the inner cloak and arms (steps 1, 2, and 6). They have fittings, but they don't line up exact across the model, so tack down along the edges of the cloak instead of the fittings and the rest of the model will actually fit together. You'll know by piece 5, the belt, if you've mis-fit anything, and that's far too late.

I also took the time to talk to the manager of my Games Workshop store while I was there. To give some background, he manages the only store in my town, he's a certified judge, and he's a tournament organizer. I asked him about the Krulghast and his Empowering Excruciation ability. Namely, I asked whether or not the Deathless Spirits, when empowered by this ability, still prevents mortal wounds along with normal wounds.

Long story short; it does.

Long story slightly longer, he explained similar logic I used here earlier back to me without my prompting. Deathless Spirits is being directly referenced in the KC's warscroll, so it is not replacing any part of that base rule. Instead, what is happening is that Empowering Excruciation is providing an effect, that effect being a 5+ to trigger something, and that something being Deathless Spirits, which itself is already in effect and is enabled when taking wounds and mortal wounds per the Battle Trait. When I asked if the lack of the word "mortal" in the KC's ability would somehow remove that aspect of Deathless Spirits he said, "unless the ability specifically says 'this replaces Deathless Spirits (as found in the Nighthaunt Battletome)' then it is pretty clear. Deathless still works the way it does in the book, just on a 5+, but only after Phantasmal Torture allocated a wound on an enemy model."

He said this without even glancing at the entry from the book that I had opened for him. He had heard this already.

I trust him. Not just because he reinforced my point of view on this particular ability this time, but because he's corrected me or my understanding of things many times before. And he has always been backed up by FAQs or Designer's Commentary soon afterward if it didn't already exist, or has been able to point out examples or sources to me across both AoS and 40K. So, moving forward, I will be operating under the assumptions above and will eventually update my guide with this in mind.

I also asked him what TOTEM means. It's a keyword that specifically means "all instances of this warscroll has an ability or effect that alters a base rule." But, he pointed out, it can only appear when either all models in a unit possess this ability, or it is a single model unit like a hero or monster. Glaivewraith Stalkers, for example, can have a Deathbeat Drummer. The Drummer alters a base rule, enabling retreat and charge in the same turn while he exists within the unit, and so is an "icon bearer," specifically a "musician." But, because the unit can include any number of Drummers, 0 for example, the warscroll doesn't contain the keyword. A unit of any number of Glaivewraiths, but 0 of them being a Deathbeat Drummer, would invalidate that keyword on the warscroll. As such, it will only appear when it is always true.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I've picked up my pre-order of Be'lakor and the Krulghast Cruciator today and got right to work putting him together. Let me just tell you, while it's not a frustrating model to put together pay special mind to the inner cloak and arms (steps 1, 2, and 6). They have fittings, but they don't line up exact across the model, so tack down along the edges of the cloak instead of the fittings and the rest of the model will actually fit together. You'll know by piece 5, the belt, if you've mis-fit anything, and that's far too late.

I also took the time to talk to the manager of my Games Workshop store while I was there. To give some background, he manages the only store in my town, he's a certified judge, and he's a tournament organizer. I asked him about the Krulghast and his Empowering Excruciation ability. Namely, I asked whether or not the Deathless Spirits, when empowered by this ability, still prevents mortal wounds along with normal wounds.

Long story short; it does.

Long story slightly longer, he explained similar logic I used here earlier back to me without my prompting. Deathless Spirits is being directly referenced in the KC's warscroll, so it is not replacing any part of that base rule. Instead, what is happening is that Empowering Excruciation is providing an effect, that effect being a 5+ to trigger something, and that something being Deathless Spirits, which itself is already in effect and is enabled when taking wounds and mortal wounds per the Battle Trait. When I asked if the lack of the word "mortal" in the KC's ability would somehow remove that aspect of Deathless Spirits he said, "unless the ability specifically says 'this replaces Deathless Spirits (as found in the Nighthaunt Battletome)' then it is pretty clear. Deathless still works the way it does in the book, just on a 5+, but only after Phantasmal Torture allocated a wound on an enemy model."

He said this without even glancing at the entry from the book that I had opened for him. He had heard this already.

That actually makes a lot of sense, and I'll be running this by my friends when we play, if we unanimously agree then it seems reasonable to play it that way unless stated otherwise by GW.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@EnixLHQ It's fair and logical that he has this interpretation (just as you and many others did) but I would just be cautious moving forward, as another TO could rule the opposite and I don't think your friend/manager is aware of the DoK FAQ.

As we have discussed, the wording and application is basically the same as with Hagg Narr, and that interaction was specifically FAQ'd to not work on Mortal Wounds.

Moreover, what your friend is saying applies to the Hagg Narr FAQ, it too names the Fanatical Faith trait, but GW ruled the opposite way.

image.png.2a5fe1eb8d3dd3f43d79da6f91b5ddc6.png

image.png.833ac1e101185c6259bd6139ac4931c1.png

 

image.png.12b45b53de23d9b301f4a171340a4747.png

It obviously needs an FAQ, but if you plan to run him at a tournament I would check with the TO first, and be sure to give them all the facts including the FAQ, as a precedence has been set.

From my side, unless an FAQ states otherwise, I will always assume that "Mortal Wounds" get the regular 6+ save and any "Wounds" will get upgraded to 5+ whilst under his ability, and I would advise others to follow this logic unless you want to set yourself up for potential disappointment (within a competitive environment, if you and your friends are happy to agree otherwise that's a different scenario).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

@EnixLHQ

It obviously needs an FAQ, but if you plan to run him at a tournament I would check with the TO first, and be sure to give them all the facts including the FAQ, as a precedence has been set.

From my side, unless an FAQ states otherwise, I will always assume that "Mortal Wounds" get the regular 6+ save and any "Wounds" will get upgraded to 5+ whilst under his ability, and I would advise others to follow this logic unless you want to set yourself up for potential disappointment (within a competitive environment, if you and your friends are happy to agree otherwise that's a different scenario).

Precedence has been set in both directions, unfortunately. That's where a lot of this debate is coming from.

Fanatical Faith is an Battle Trait. Devoted Disciple is a Command Trait. It makes sense to me (albeit, a bit heavy handed) that DD would operate differently since both abilities remain in effect where they overlap.

Deathless Spirits is an Battle Trait. Phantasmal Torture is a character ability. It requires a trigger, so a chance of failure. Hopefully that makes a difference.

And Nighthaunt need this.

But you're right; word-wise, they are almost identical. You could be right about the future ruling, and that would be both sad and infuriating.

Wording like this is maddeningly upsetting and should not make it to print. I'm on record before saying that it seems GW often makes vague rules or wording mistakes almost on purpose. It shouldn't be up to a bunch of nerds "um, actually-ing" a rule nuance like this to death, but this is what they trained us to do. Maybe it generates buzz, I don't know.

Not that these are actual sources, but other sites have started to weigh in:

Goonhammer: "As a very nice bonus, Empowering Excruciation makes it so if you successfully wound an enemy model all Nighthaunt units wholly within 12” of the Cruciator get a 5+ Feel No Pain instead of the usual 6, which is huge for Nighthaunts given their saves cannot be improved."

Bell of Lost Souls: "Causing your Nighthaunt units wholly within 12″ to get their Deathless Spirits battle trait “save” on a 5+ vs a 6+ is a big deal. You know the math and I’ve seen the difference in combat between armies that have a 6+ vs a 5+ “extra” save. This ability makes taking this model worth it."

While the above are not official sources, their reviewers have said before they actually play the pre-releases and talk to GW before they write about them. No telling if they did so this time around, but they probably wouldn't comment on it if they felt they'd have to go back and rewrite their statements and issue addendums/apologies later.

6 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

as another TO could rule the opposite and I don't think your friend/manager is aware of the DoK FAQ.

He's not my friend. Kind of important to point out. He has no incentive to side with me, and has put me and others in our places when we've been wrong about something (nicely, he isn't a ******). He's got so many years of experience playing and working for GW that I take his word even when I don't like it, which is the point.

He knew the ruling. He got into more detail that I, frankly, don't understand, but made sense the way he put it. I would likely quote him wrong if I tried to repeat it since I didn't write it down.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I hope you're right and hopefully the fact that it's an ability will help. I will write in to the FAQ team about it and I would encourage others to do the same.

 

Regarding precedence, I was referring solely to official GW publications. Unless you are referring to a third case, I would not take this person's opinion/interpretation as evidence, despite their good standing.

 

Similarly those blogs are just that, blogs. They may not have spent more than a brief moment reviewing the warscroll before passing comment. Goonhammer is great but weighted towards 40k, and Bell of Lost Souls has history of being click baity and factually incorrect. I wouldn't take their stance as evidence. 

 

I'm sorry if I'm being pessimistic, but this is the kind of thing that I do think needs to be addressed and considered fully before going out and playing games. Most people would probably agree with you if they didn't know, hence why i feel the burden is on the active player to play honestly. 

 

I think we've presented our arguments so the rest is up to GW and being upfront with opponents - "here are the rules, here's how I interpret them, are you okay with this?" and crack on.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...