AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Nogginnocker]

1 minute ago, SleeperAgent said:

As for Olynder, I don't think IOve ever used her as my general. It just nerfs NH too much to not have access to Ruler of the Spirit Hosts.

I understand that sentiment. I used the Dreadblade Harrows WAY before it ever became en vogue to use. I still remember people pooh poohing it before they realized its role as a general to teleport units to it via CP.  Still, I thought that DG was a nice bone for GW to throw at us. Hexwraiths under DG are actually really good. Olynder is nice if you can get more than one turn out of her. Unfortunately for me, my opponents know this and always nuke her off the table turn one or two. So, I can never do anything with her. That's why DG with Olynder was so nice for a change, however brief it may ultimately have turned out to be (due to Tzeentch). I'll have to go back to old cookie cutter ****** for NH, which makes for quite the boring army. Booh! I say. Booh!!

 

[EnixLHQ]

DG didn't do well for you? Why, exactly? How did you use them?

They've got two roles, depending on how you want to use them. First is the obvious; extra health for your general. But the second is how it turns Hexwraiths into mobile lesser Spirit Hosts. +1 attacks for charging puts them at 5 each with the leader having 6. Pair them with a KoSoES or Vampire Lord and for a CP it's 7/6 attacks.

I haven't seen the meta you're up against, but maybe it'll trickle in. But, in any case, just try to know your tricks.

[Nogginnocker]

OK sorry. Apparently, either I’m not being clear or people simply aren’t reading what I’m saying. My comment about DG is specifically in reference to playing against Tzeentch Hosts Duplicitous builds. Yes, I understand fully how DG works. My entire army is built on getting a good charge attack with two units of 10 hexwraiths and retreating them and charging again later somewhere else. I have Pendant of the Fell Wind, Vampire Lord with wings, yada, yada, yada, the whole shebang. I often get 8 attacks with each hexwraith (4 for rider and 4 for horse) rerolling hits of one, wounding on twos. I know how to play my army. Tzeentch comes in and absolutely obliterates your game plan. Vampire Lord? Gone T1, maybe T2 if they’re feeling generous. Trying to chew through 20 pink horrors with a 6+ FNP and you only hitting on 6s is no fun, man. Your nice hammer unit of hexwraiths is turned into a fluffy pillow.  My opponents almost always roll at least one 1 for their fate dice, so that’s extremely bad if you can’t kill off the Pink’s banner in one round. 

So to summarize TLDR:

Tzeentch Changehost Hosts Duplicitous is a one drop. They turn your army into pillows by hitting only on 5s and 6s. They pin you in your deployment zone. They literally negate your ability to retreat for the entire game (hosts duplicitous ability). Pinks split on the objective. They have more bodies on the objectives. They win.

[SleeperAgent]

2 hours ago, Nogginnocker said:

OK sorry. Apparently, either I’m not being clear or people simply aren’t reading what I’m saying. My comment about DG is specifically in reference to playing against Tzeentch Hosts Duplicitous builds. Yes, I understand fully how DG works. My entire army is built on getting a good charge attack with two units of 10 hexwraiths and retreating them and charging again later somewhere else. I have Pendant of the Fell Wind, Vampire Lord with wings, yada, yada, yada, the whole shebang. I often get 8 attacks with each hexwraith (4 for rider and 4 for horse) rerolling hits of one, wounding on twos. I know how to play my army. Tzeentch comes in and absolutely obliterates your game plan. Vampire Lord? Gone T1, maybe T2 if they’re feeling generous. Trying to chew through 20 pink horrors with a 6+ FNP and you only hitting on 6s is no fun, man. Your nice hammer unit of hexwraiths is turned into a fluffy pillow.  My opponents almost always roll at least one 1 for their fate dice, so that’s extremely bad if you can’t kill off the Pink’s banner in one round. 

So to summarize TLDR:

Tzeentch Changehost Hosts Duplicitous is a one drop. They turn your army into pillows by hitting only on 5s and 6s. They pin you in your deployment zone. They literally negate your ability to retreat for the entire game (hosts duplicitous ability). Pinks split on the objective. They have more bodies on the objectives. They win.

I know it sounds rough, because we really havent had an army with this much durability show up.  Thats the real problem is the pinks. I can easily foresee them getting nerfed back to the blue/brim fate points version. You cant give an army a 200 point battleline thats 50 wounds and can teleport. Either they'll get nerfed, or as more battletomes come out the damage values will have to get much higher. I could easily see them changing Spirit Hosts to 2 mortal wounds per 6 since Fyreslayers have that AND get to continue the attack. Then Mourngul could go to 3-4 MW per 6 *drool*

Edited January 23, 2020 by SleeperAgent

[Neck-Romantic]

Power creep at its finest : /

[Lebenski]

8 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

+1 attacks for charging puts them at 5 each with the leader having 6. Pair them with a KoSoES or Vampire Lord and for a CP it's 7/6 attacks.

I believe that the Dolorus Guard buffs the mount attacks too as it is all melee weapons so the batallion takes them to 6 attacks each (leader: 7) and VL/KoSoS takes them to 8 attacks each (leader: 9).

[Nogginnocker]

2 hours ago, Lebenski said:

I believe that the Dolorus Guard buffs the mount attacks too as it is all melee weapons so the batallion takes them to 6 attacks each (leader: 7) and VL/KoSoS takes them to 8 attacks each (leader: 9).

You are correct. It applies to both melee profiles. Each hexwraith of mine normally gets 8 attacks (9 for leader) when buffed and charging.

[Nogginnocker]

 

3 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

I know it sounds rough, because we really havent had an army with this much durability show up.  Thats the real problem is the pinks. I can easily foresee them getting nerfed back to the blue/brim fate points version. You cant give an army a 200 point battleline thats 50 wounds and can teleport. Either they'll get nerfed, or as more battletomes come out the damage values will have to get much higher. I could easily see them changing Spirit Hosts to 2 mortal wounds per 6 since Fyreslayers have that AND get to continue the attack. Then Mourngul could go to 3-4 MW per 6 *drool*

Buffing and reducing the points costs of the mourngul would be fantastic.

[Lebenski]

How are you guys rounding out your Dolorus Guard lists?  There is a lot of tension between Olynder and Dreadblade for best general imho but at the moment I'm erring on the side of Olynder for all the utility she gives.  I realise this means giving up on the teleportation trick + Ruler of the Spirit Hosts.  I'm not 100% sure it's right but it's where I'm at right now.

I feel like you want a core of this:

1 x Olynder (General. All round boss, great with the protection of the DG.  Grief Stricken rocks.  Regrow Hexwraiths).
1 x Vampire Lord (Extra Hexwraith attacks.  Regrow Hexwraithss)
1 x Spirit Torment (Rerolls fishing for mortals on hexwraiths.  Regrow Hexwraiths)

10 x Hexwraith

10 x Hexwraith

1 x Black Coach (Regrow Hexwraiths)

With the batallion this is 1360 points.  You've then got 640 to spend on a mixture of...

- Chainghasts/Spirit Torment (grant rerolls to your second blob of hexwraiths which are unlikely to get in the first ST bubble too).

- Bladegheists (great with all the STs and Chainghasts running around.  Good for deepstriking).

- More Hexwaiths (given our lists is basically built around them, and they fill out the battleline)

- Chronomantic Cogs (great to help guarantee those +attack charges)

- Chainrasps (nice to have a big block of bodies for objectives but they really want support from a hero or two)

- KoSoS (more +attack redundancy + Deathless Spirits)

- Spirit Hosts (also great with the ST rerolls).

Keen to see how you guys are building your DG lists.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Lebenski

[Casandora Yellow]

14 hours ago, Nogginnocker said:

This is actually really cool. I hadn't considered that since I had been so focuses on the Dolorous Guard.  It just sucks that DG is no longer a viable option. RIP the, what, 1 month it actually lived??  

Sorry I'm kinda out of the loop, getting back into sigmar after a year. What makes Dolorous Guard not viable? Is it just against Tzeench?

[Piikalo1]

Does emerald host give minus to any mortal wound saves as well as regular saves?

[Nogginnocker]

2 hours ago, Piikalo1 said:

Does emerald host give minus to any mortal wound saves as well as regular saves?

Unfortunately not. It’s only for save rolls. Mortal wounds cut through save rolls.

[Nogginnocker]

3 hours ago, Casandora Yellow said:

Sorry I'm kinda out of the loop, getting back into sigmar after a year. What makes Dolorous Guard not viable? Is it just against Tzeench?

Apologies for an incoming wall of text...

Yeah. DG is normally amazing. I had so much fun playing with it, even if I lost, because it made the game more enjoyable. Then the new Tzeentch book came out, and boy it is a doozy. DG’s strength relies on getting a good buff from your hexwraiths when they charge. Against The Hosts Duplicitous, you are not allowed to retreat. DG’s other selling point is that it made Olynder stay on the board much longer than previously. She would commonly be shot or magicked off on T1 or T2. DG makes it much more difficult to remove her. Her Command ability is really good for bringing back multiple hexwraiths. Being able to retreat with one unit of 10 hexwraiths, potentially dealing some flyover damage in the process, followed by another unit charging to replace them used to work really well. Now, your hexwraiths are looking at base -1 to hit against Tzeentch demons with a hero wholly within 12”. Then, a competent Tzeentch general will cast Geminids to apply another -1 to hit. Then, if they know you have an ability that gives +1 to hit (i.e. KoS on foot), they can cast “Arcane Suggestion” with the Gaunt Summoner. Admittedly, most Tzeentch players choose “Glimpse the Future” or “Bolt of Tzeentch” as the spell lore for the GS. Although the LoC could choose “Treason of Tzeentch” for the potential -1 to hit, I think most Tzeentch generals would take either “Tzeentch’s firestorm” or “Fold Reality” instead.

You have to be insanely lucky to successfully cast Olynder’s Grief Stricken spell, which would help to mitigate the multiple minuses to hit for your hexwraiths. However, The Hosts Duplicitous wizards get to reroll failed casting and unbinding rolls. A competent general would save an unbind for their LoC to fish for at least one five or six on the four dice they get to roll if you even manage to cast it in the first, which seemingly rarely goes off for me. Alternatively, they can take chance completely out of the equation and just use two fate dice. LoCs also have a warscroll command ability giving all wizards +1 to casting and unbinding rolls as long as they are wholly within 18”. The command ability is stackable and lasts until their next hero phase. Olynder’s bravery-based shooting ability is terrible against demons and I tend to roll a one when I use “Lifting the Veil.” That’s just bad luck for, although my bad luck is quite reliable. However, results may vary, LOL. So, the only reason I have left to use Olynder would be for her amazing command ability. When hexwraiths are hitting like pillows, it’s not worth it. Plus, it uses the CP that you could be using to summon the hexwraiths back to her side to get them out of the “no retreating trap” that comes with fighting against Hosts Duplicitous.

So, yeah. It basically comes down to me simply having to completely redo my entire army concept when fighting against that Tzeentch build, which is rapidly gaining popularity in my local meta. That’s why I ranted last night. It is what it is. I just needed to vent is all.

[Casandora Yellow]

Thanks for the details! Luckily I haven't seen Tzeentch in my local meta yet,but it's good to prepare and scheme ahead.🤭

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, Nogginnocker said:

Apologies for an incoming wall of text...

How many points do you usually run?

[Nogginnocker]

I almost always play 2,000 pts games unless we're doing some sort of narrative event.

[Neinball]

How key are the banners? Could Reiknor's ability to snipe them out help? Seems like it's not just one issue, but a lot of them, so I'm interested in hearing your current thoughts on going about the issue.

[Nogginnocker]

11 minutes ago, Neinball said:

How key are the banners? Could Reiknor's ability to snipe them out help? Seems like it's not just one issue, but a lot of them, so I'm interested in hearing your current thoughts on going about the issue.

Ha! What a brilliant idea. To answer your question, the banners are absolutely necessary to take out. I was thinking of using a Dreadblade harrows equipped with Slitter. But your idea is even better. But of course, "Por que no los dos?!" I think I'll do that combination together. And this is why I outsource ideas to the internet! The more I've talked with you guys and others, the more my mind has been racing. I'll still have to redo my army and completely change the approach to how I play versus Tzeentch in particular, but it will be worth it in the long run. For some reason, I had remembered incorrectly that Reikenour's corpse candle dealt a wound to an enemy unit. But lo and behold! It sure does say model. Great stuff! Thanks to many of you for cheering me up slightly. I still doubt I can win, but doing that a few times will help mitigate the soul crushing losses.

[Nogginnocker]

I was also giving some serious consideration to bringing a few units of Chainghasts to potentially deep strike and shoot snipe a smaller wound character as well. It's important to remember that Tzeentch's Locus of Change only applies to your melee weapons. However, that would be rather points intensive. Still, I will be brainstorming and theory crafting potential tailored lists (which makes me feel dirty, but is necessary) over the next week or two.

[The_Dudemeister]

45 minutes ago, Neinball said:

How key are the banners? Could Reiknor's ability to snipe them out help? Seems like it's not just one issue, but a lot of them, so I'm interested in hearing your current thoughts on going about the issue.

Icons are extremely important. If you roll a 1 in the battleshock phase, you get d6 previously slain Horrors back, which can be more Pinks. However, Tzeentch can use one of their 9 Destiny Dice that they roll at the beginning of the game to replace the battleshock roll... so if they have a 1 in the pool, they automatically get d6 back.

Either way, as someone who started playing Tzeentch myself, I absolutely acknowledge the Codex Creep that happened with the new Tzeentch book. However, oddly enoudh, Nighthaunt are one of the armies that deal with the new Tzeentch stuff the best... and that's definitely a first.

Some of strongest things to look out for with Tzeentch:

* Horrors just multiplying. 10 Pink Horrors split into 20 Blues, which split into 10 Brimstones, so 50 in total. With Reikenor and the artefact Slitter we have two ways to at least snipe the Iconbearers. This ability is extremely rare in the game and we have access to two ways to snipe them. Also the splitting mechanic was revised in an important way and different to 40k. You have to place a split model within 1" of the slain model. So if you surround some parts of the Horror unit, the chance for the Tzeentch player to place the new models get smaller and smaller. To counter this a little, instead of splitting, a Pink Horror can deal a mortal wound on 5+... the worst possible thing you can do with Horrors. There exists a spell to get slain models back even if the iconbearer is dead, Fold Reality. But if you roll a 1 there, the whole unit gets destroyed. Expect that once the unit has been whittled down to only Brimstone Horrors to get Pinks again to restart the cycle.

* Eternal Conflagration will be THE subfaction in competitive. It gives the shooting of different Flamers and Horrors -1 to rend. So while we don't care about that at all, it makes shooting ridiculously powerful. 9 Flamers for 360 points deal more damage than 30 Reapers. They have a threat range of 27" by themselves. However you play Changehost, which is a battalion that makes your whole army a single drop and it lets you teleport 2 units... so Tzeentch starts the game basically every single time and they always start off with teleporting dozens of Flamers and Pink Horrors in shooting range. Every single army will have to deal with that, but we at leas won't notice the extra rend

* We have a solid way to get +1 and more to hit. Tzeentch Daemons have a natural -1 to hit and can stack that potentially. However, most everything in the army is extremely wounds-inefficient and only saves on 5+ and 6+. Let's mathhammer this a little: 30 Reapers hitting on 6+ kill only 10 Pink Horrors on average (Pinks have a 6+FnP). However if they hit on 5+, they kill 18, on 4+ its 25 already. So the Knight of Shrouds is your friend... Olynder in theory too but don't expect to actually get the spell off.

* I can't stress enough just how squishy this army is. except for the Lord of Change, Kairos and the Exalted Greater Daemon, there are only 2 other heroes with 4+ saves. The other 11 heroes are 5+ and 6+ just like the rest of the army. And nothing gets more wounds to make up for the bad saves.

* If they don't use Eternal Conflagration, they'll use the subfaction The Hosts Duplicitous which doesn't let you retreat. We're also one of the few armies in the game that has a reliable and spammable answer for that with our teleporting.

So yeah, while Tzeentch definitely is one of the new "That faction..." in the game with Bonereapers and the likes, at least Nighthaunt don't suffer as hard as everyone else.

Edited January 24, 2020 by The_Dudemeister

[Nogginnocker]

Well, it finally happened. I just played against my friend's Hosts Duplicitous list by my request (he offered to play a different build). He's a really good AoS player, so he knows exactly what he's doing. We played shifting objectives with realm rules, realm spells, and all terrain features. I told him exactly how I intended to play my army because we're friends. So, he knew how to counter it, which he promptly proceeded to do. Somehow, he conceded after the top of round 2. It blew my mind. I need to test this list a few more times before I post the actual list itself. It is a bit wonky, and I've never seen anything like it before. I'm kind of proud of it myself.  I'm not even worried about Eternal Conflagration as it would get devastated by my list. I really want to test it against a Petrifex Elite OBR list, though, as I designed the list to specifically be able to take on all three builds while holding its own against several other armies. Unfortunately, no one in my area plays OBR at the moment, although one player has considered switching from Skaven to OBR.

[EnixLHQ]

CanCon and LVO 2020 results are in:

Nighthaunt CanCon lists: 6, LVO lists 4, Winrate: 43%

Legion of Grief CanCon lists: 6, LVO lists, 1, Winrate: 53.2%

 

Mathew Tyrrell placed 18th at CanCon with 5 Major Wins and 1 Major Loss with the following list:

Spoiler

 

LEADERS
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (180)
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind

UNITS
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
10 x Grimghast Reapers (160)
9 x Spirit Hosts (360)
Black Coach (220)
Mourngul (280)

ENDLESS SPELLS / COMMAND POINTS
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123

 

So far, not exactly great rates. Something to note, absolutely none of the CanCon Nighthaunt lists included any of the Emerald Host battalions, while only one of the LVO did, running Dolorous Guard. The most common NH battalion at CanCon was Shroudguard, while at LVO no battalion appeared more than once.

Edited January 27, 2020 by EnixLHQ

[EnixLHQ]

On 1/25/2020 at 3:00 PM, Nogginnocker said:

Tzeentch stuff...

Well, you're very much confirmed in your frustration. The CanCon thread is filled with pages of rage against them.

[Nogginnocker]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Well, you're very much confirmed in your frustration. The CanCon thread is filled with pages of rage against them.

Oh I know. There are multiple threads all over the place railing against the book in its current form. It also took 1st, 2nd AND 3rd at the GT heat #1 IIRC. I’m just reading those threads while eating popcorn, cackling maniacally and occasionally muttering “I told you so” with a thousand yard stare on my face.

[SleeperAgent]

14 minutes ago, Nogginnocker said:

Oh I know. There are multiple threads all over the place railing against the book in its current form. It also took 1st, 2nd AND 3rd at the GT heat #1 IIRC. I’m just reading those threads while eating popcorn, cackling maniacally and occasionally muttering “I told you so” with a thousand yard stare on my face.

You were right to rage at Tzeentch. But our army actually can avoid the Host Duplicitous BS. I really think Changehost is the problem with the book. If you're going to give an army 1 drop potential it shouldn't come with huge powers like double teleport every turn. I mean Dreadblade Harrow costs a command point per unit. Make Tzeentch pay the same cost.