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RuneBrush

AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

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4 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Meanwhile 20 Hearthguard Berzerkers dropped from 480 to 400. Let that sink in!

That can’t be true...

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Well at least I was right about Olynder and Kurdoss. That's a letdown for the rest however. Black Coach is welcome too !

But I'm as salty as the Dead Sea concerning Fyreslayers, my regular Fyreslayers opponent already whoops me with his present rules, he didn't need a REDUCTION on his Berzerkers.

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The changes are good in a vacuum. As are the ones to the Mortarchs if you want to ally them. 

The problem is most lists only featured one of these at most. 

I really thought Reapers would drop to 150 since they jumped from 140 to 160. And I still have no clue how they justify the points for Stalkers. Oh well. 

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The average Fyreslayers list will drop 160 points! Heck, with Arkhan getting cheaper, there will be more Bonereapers list dropping by 20 points than Nighthaunt lists.

Nurgle getting 60 points drops for every single battalion and Slaves to Darkness getting a new Battletome... it's getting lonlier way down there where we are and will remain for quite a while. 😱

13-12-19-04.png

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13 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

But I'm as salty as the Dead Sea concerning Fyreslayers, my regular Fyreslayers opponent already whoops me with his present rules, he didn't need a REDUCTION on his Berzerkers.

Having a restricted max unit size at 20 could make quite a big difference, not spending 1cp to have 30 dudes fight first, or how it works. 

And actually, they  have the same point per model at max size as before. 

400/20 = 20

600/30 = 20

I would say this is a nerf because now they have a harder time buffing their units 👍 

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5 minutes ago, Sauriv said:

Having a restricted max unit size at 20 could make quite a big difference, not spending 1cp to have 30 dudes fight first, or how it works. 

And actually, they  have the same point per model at max size as before. 

400/20 = 20

600/30 = 20

I would say this is a nerf because now they have a harder time buffing their units 👍 

Huh I was confused because before they were 480 for 20 according to the Builder. I still hate them though. 

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9 minutes ago, Sauriv said:

 

I would say this is a nerf because now they have a harder time buffing their units 👍 

 

A typical competitive Fyreslayer list looks like this in the battleline department

 
Quote

30 x Hearthguard Berzerkers

10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers

10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers

5 x Auric Hearthguard

Converted to two times 20 Berzerkers they're going down 160 points. How can you possibly call that a nerf? That's one free hero with points to spare or another min-sized objective holder unit and still more points. As a NH player, I'd kill a mortal for that kind of treatment

Edited by The_Dudemeister

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22 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

 

Nvm, I miscalculated the points myself (forgot that their min size is 5) but still 40p cheaper, not 160

Edited by angrycontra

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42 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

Well at least I was right about Olynder and Kurdoss. That's a letdown for the rest however. Black Coach is welcome too !

But I'm as salty as the Dead Sea concerning Fyreslayers, my regular Fyreslayers opponent already whoops me with his present rules, he didn't need a REDUCTION on his Berzerkers.

Same here I just complained and whined to him. He even find it hard to argue for the reduction himself.

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2 minutes ago, angrycontra said:

What kind of math is that? 2x20 hgb costs 800p. 1x30 costs 600 and 2x10 costs 240p. That is 40p discount, not 160. The nerf is that there is longer super 120w deadball that piles in twice and always holds the objective. I do somewhat agree that their mass bonus ought to be much smaller than that.

It's not even a discount, because you're only getting 40 HGB for 800 points, instead of 50 for 840.  Their points cost went up, full stop.

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Old points:

30x = 600 p

10x = 240 p

10x = 240 P

Total = 1080 p

 

New points and size restriction:

20x = 400 p

20x = 400 p

10x = 240 p

Total = 1040 p

Edited by Platypus

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2 minutes ago, Platypus said:

Old points:

30x = 600 p

10x = 240 p

10x = 240 P

Total = 1080 p

 

New points and size restriction:

20x = 400 p

20x = 400 p

10x = 240 p

Total = 1040 p

Ah, yes.   <clears throat>.  That's what I meant to say. ^_^;

(math is hard.)

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Anywho... Nighthaunt and all that...

I'm glad to see our point reductions. Makes it more likely we'll field Olynder with the Dolorous Guard. Black Coach will likely see more play. These are all still more points than "if we had a few left over", so they are still going to be built around these choices.

But that being said, yeah I am disappointed. I don't honestly understand. What does GW know about NH that we don't that don't think we need much of a boost?

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Its not like we are close to some tipping point threshold where a few buffs would flood the meta and stagnate the game.

Its selling models. Oly/Kurdoss/Coach sales must be down. Hexwraiths too.

(Slightly salty)

Same as how my Necrons have felt utterly ignored in powercreep/model updates for years now

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7 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

But that being said, yeah I am disappointed. I don't honestly understand. What does GW know about NH that we don't that don't think we need much of a boost?

From the relatively light touch they have taken with both of this year's rounds of changes, these seem like a phase 2 of GHB 2019, rather than a fresh attempt to address the balance of factions as a whole.  I would guess that they identified Kurdoss, Olynder, and the Coach as warscrolls that needed more radical drops, but they were uncomfortable with making those changes all at once.

Notice that most of the changes across the board are not to key battleline units.

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I'd rather face a unit of 20 HGB than 30, but that's just me. However, I'm going to be that person and switch this back to focusing on Nighthaunt.

I wasn't expecting points drops with the FAQ in the first place, so I guess I'll take what we got. I also don't expect any further changes... there's nothing that could be fixed with an FAQ/Errata/Designer Commentary IMO. Maybe making the WoT go off on 10+ modified or not, but then just makes Cogs more of an auto include. But really, I think we just need to accept that nothing significant is changing for us until we get a new book which will likely be years away. It's a shame, but it is what it is.

I think lists that run Dolorous Guard and/or Death Riders are more serviceable now.

DG because realistically you would take that battalion 9 times out of 10 to make one of Olynder or Kurdoss your general. Both are now 20 points cheaper. Not much, but something.

The 40 pt drop for the Black Coach is really nice, but still I can only see its value in the Death Riders battalion. That battalion at its minimum is now 19.5 pts per wound, which is equal to Death Stalkers.

It's unfortunate Hexwraiths aren't better (2" range and Reap Like Corn is really all they need), but at 14 pts per wound they're actually tied as our third best value unit with full hordes of Reapers and Harridans.

Also, I think a lot of people have been trying to force the Forgotten Scions battalion with the Dolorous Guard, when that is not the best companion IMO. I'd rather run that battalion with Myrmourns, Bladegheists, or Reapers.

So, we've got a few new tools to play with in 2020. I don't expect Nighthaunt's numbers to change much, but at least there's more ways to play the army.

 

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1 minute ago, elescapo said:

From the relatively light touch they have taken with both of this year's rounds of changes, these seem like a phase 2 of GHB 2019, rather than a fresh attempt to address the balance of factions as a whole.  I would guess that they identified Kurdoss, Olynder, and the Coach as warscrolls that needed more radical drops, but they were uncomfortable with making those changes all at once.

Notice that most of the changes across the board are not to key battleline units.

That's a good point.

I am surprised they didn't course correct Reapers, and put them at 150 since they jumped them from 140 to 160 in GHB 19. I also thought a 10 point drop for Stalkers would have made sense (though they really need a 20 pt drop to be serviceable IMO).

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Yes, once I'll finish building these Spirit Hosts (2 and a half to go, yeaaaah) there'll be a few tricks to experiment with. This'll change me from playing LoG.

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4 minutes ago, elescapo said:

I would guess that they identified Kurdoss, Olynder, and the Coach as warscrolls that needed more radical drops

In all honesty, I feel like Olynder is now actually slightly underpriced, especially given the possibility of making her uber-tough via the Dolorous Guard. Kurdoss at 180 pts  is still probably not viable in a competitive scenario,  but it’s getting there.

Overall I agree with what has been said up to now: we didn’t get much, but guys, we did get something, and it’s all good news. Time to sit down and think properly about the next list... one thing has to be said: we are spoiled for choices. Nine of them might be very strong, but at least we have many, and that keeps it interesting to me. 

I play Legion of Blood as well (Neferata also went down 40 pts... hurray!) , and there are only a couple of viable builds there...

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Eh, underpriced for a 7 wounds character that is a lvl 2 Wizard is not what I'd call her. And we pay a hefty price for the Dolorous Guard: 120 + 140 + 140 = 400 pts for the bodyguards. 

I'm glad about Kurdoss because slowly he's becoming less of a handicap in a casual list and I won't feel as bad playing him.

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10 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

Overall I agree with what has been said up to now: we didn’t get much, but guys, we did get something, and it’s all good news.

I also like to try and stay positive. But some competitive NH lists going down 20 points isn't even good when looked at in a vacuum. Though many other armies went down too and most often considerably more, so this is a net nerf for us. Even if we weren't bottom of the barrel Flop-5 it would still mean that we face slightly more efficient armies more often.

The only positive thing I see right now is that Skaven got actual nerfs. Several units got up 20 points where everyone else stayed the same or got points reduction. That's a double whammy right there. Their mortal wound output is a pretty hard counter to our good save but low-wound army. And them darn rats are legion... if they get less prevalent in the competitive scene, this alone will boost our win-rate

Edited by The_Dudemeister

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1 hour ago, The_Dudemeister said:

The average Fyreslayers list will drop 160 points! Heck, with Arkhan getting cheaper, there will be more Bonereapers list dropping by 20 points than Nighthaunt lists.

Nurgle getting 60 points drops for every single battalion and Slaves to Darkness getting a new Battletome... it's getting lonlier way down there where we are and will remain for quite a while. 😱

13-12-19-04.png

May I ask where you generated this table?

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