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AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

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3 hours ago, Spears said:

Allies count as a unit setup on the battlefield as far as I am aware though.

What I am trying to say is that, with respect to a Nighthaunt army, if you have, say, 10 units in total, of which two of them are allies, you can only put 4 units in the Underworld, not 5. That’s because the Core Rules state that “an allied model [...] cannot use or benefit from your army’s allegiance abilities”, and From the Underworld they Come is one of those.

 

3 hours ago, Lebenski said:

lets say you had 8 drops.  You could put your first 4 in the Underworld (one at a time), then your last 4 on the battlefield (one at time) and that would be fine because the game only "checks" after deployment is complete?

That’s how I’ve always played it - there’s nothing in the wording of the ability that prevents you to do so. If the ability was meant to enforce alternating units on and off the table, I would think the wording would have been quite different.  @Spears  is reporting a different experience, though, and I have been wrong before!!

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In my local scene it is completely legit to Underworlds/whateverthestormcastversionofthisiscalled the half of your army that's going into reserve before setting a unit on the table at all. As long as it ends up following the 50%-or-less rule it's fine. Order doesn't matter.

What's been debated around here, though, is if a battalion can be split when leveraging it's one-drop bonus.

What's agreed to be legit (locally)

  • You can set up Underworlds reservations first before putting a single unit on the table, so long as by the end of your total deployment it follows the 50/50 deployment rule.
  • A battalion, as a bonus, allows you to deploy all units included in that battalion as a single deployment, the verbage being "at the same time" in the Core Rules.
    • There is no rule against distance between units deployed in this way. So a Chainguard battalion, for example, can be a single drop, but can also appear with half the 'rasps on the other side of the table.
  • A battalion's one-drop bonus can be used when placing the entire battalion in reserve.

What's debated is (locally)

  • Since a battalion is a single drop by virtue of being "at the same time", and has no rules about physical distance on the table, that a part of a battalion can be deployed in reserve at the same time the rest of it goes on the table, still counting as a single drop.
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So, I have been doing a bit of theory crafting around a really low  drop list for Nighthaunt, and this is what I've gotten so far:

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
- Artefact: Cloak of the Waxing Moon
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
- Infernal Lantern (Artefact): Wychlight Lantern
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
Dreadblade Harrow (90)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome - Reaping Scythe

Battleline
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
30 x Chainrasp Horde (240)

Units
15 x Bladegheist Revenants (270)

Battalions
Chainguard (120)
Dolorous Guard (140)
Emerald Host (80)
Forgotten Scion (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Vault of Souls (20)


Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 155

 

So, for starters, this is a 2-drop army. This is one of the big advantages of the list, since  you can decide when and where you want to drop your units, and how to force your opponent to move.  And thanks to absolute oodles of CP you get, as well as Artifacts, you can deck your heros out how ever you choose to, as well as claim the title of fastest army in AoS once more. 

The Dreadblade general will be the one mobilizing the army, pulling your Bladegheist's, Hexwraiths and Chainrasps where they are needed, and out of danger. One thing to keep in mind is that this list is so mobile, that you can pretty much deploy your units anywhere on the board, and thanks to the high CP, your more likely to be able to get those 9's to charge, though not that you should be aiming for that. Instead, this should be an army about controlling your opponents movements with your Chainrasp hordes, and using your Hexwraiths and Bladegheists to help knock out heavy enemy hitters. Bog down your opponents forces, and force them to wade through your hordes, all the while you control the objectives.

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On 12/7/2019 at 9:00 PM, Thamalys said:

Some of my favourite... 

(1) Spirit Hosts: fantastic screens, very hard to get rid of (especially if using Ruler of the Spirit Hosts), and surprisingly punchy if you have 6-9 of them in one unit. When you manage to roll 6+, MWs hurt everyone, big monsters included. Paired with a DH as a General, they don't suffer from their low mobility, making them a very, very solid choice as Battleline. You'll hate them badly when the time comes to actually put together the models, though - oh, the pain...

(2) (MORE. MANY MORE) Grimghast Reapers: in NHs, I usually go for 20 instead of 30 as keeping them within 12" (essential for many things...) becomes quite hard otherwise. They are now quite costly, but still amazingly good. People fear them as well, which is something you can and should leverage.

(3) Bladegheist Revenants: hard-ish hitters. I have 4 units of 5 (very manoeuvrable), can be used in the Shroudguard Battalion for somed durability in conjunction with a mounted KoS and - essential- a Spirit Torment. When they re-roll hits they can be quite nasty. He's also an absolute joy to paint, I like the model very very much indeed.

(4) Reikenor, you should have already: because the entire point with NH is that ephemeral 9" charge, and because of that you need the Cogs - which in turn require that sweet +3 to cast that only Reiki can provide. It's an investment (170+80=250 pts, I believe?), but a good one in my opinion. Get those Cogs!

(5) Various support characters of your choosing: GoS for Reapers, ST and/or KoS for Blades... a Vampire Lord (flying Horror essential) is, I find, a very good addition. Combine it with a mounted KoS and for 2 CP your 20 Reapers are dishing out some 80 attacks... plus D3 back on three different units within (not wholly within) 12", and he's a caster. Which can heal D6 once/battle and as opposed to a GoS can also kill something (little).

That might be even too much? With the Cogs on top you'll get a +4 on the charge... a 5" charge is > 80%...

This post seems to consist of some good advice, though it is almost impossible to follow because of those abbreviations.

 

Do you really think every person knows every single abbreviation?

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1 hour ago, Hannibal said:

This post seems to consist of some good advice, though it is almost impossible to follow because of those abbreviations.

Do you really think every person knows every single abbreviation?

Fair point @Hannibal - probably not. Here follows a version with no abbreviation whatsoever...

Some of my favourite... 

(1) Spirit Hosts: fantastic screens, very hard to get rid of (especially if using Ruler of the Spirit Hosts), and surprisingly punchy if you have 6-9 of them in one unit. When you manage to roll 6+, mortal wounds hurt everyone, big monsters included. Paired with a Dreadblade Harrow as a General, they don't suffer from their low mobility, making them a very, very solid choice as Battleline. You'll hate them badly when the time comes to actually put together the models, though - oh, the pain...

(2) (MORE. MANY MORE) Grimghast Reapers: in Nighthaunts, I usually go for 20 instead of 30 as keeping them within 12" (essential for many things...) becomes quite hard otherwise. They are now quite costly, but still amazingly good. People fear them as well, which is something you can and should leverage.

(3) Bladegheist Revenants: hard-ish hitters. I have 4 units of 5 (very manoeuvrable), can be used in the Shroudguard Battalion for somed durability in conjunction with a mounted Knight of Shrouds and - essential- a Spirit Torment. When they re-roll hits they can be quite nasty. He's also an absolute joy to paint, I like the model very very much indeed.

(4) Reikenor the Grimhailer, you should have already: because the entire point with Nighthaunts is that ephemeral 9" charge, and because of that you need the Chronomantic Cogs - which in turn require that sweet +3 to cast that only Reikernor can provide. It's an investment (170+80=250 pts, I believe?), but a good one in my opinion. Get those Chronomantic Cogs!

(5) Various support characters of your choosing: Guardian of Souls for Reapers, Spirit Torment and/or Knight of Shrouds for Blades... a Vampire Lord (flying Horror essential) is, I find, a very good addition. Combine it with a mounted Knight of Shrouds and for 2 Command Points your 20 Grimghast Reapers are dishing out some 80 attacks... plus D3 back on three different units within (not wholly within) 12", and he's a caster. Which can heal D6 once/battle and as opposed to a Guardian of Souls can also kill something (little).

That might be even too much? With the Chronomantic Cogs on top you'll get a +4 on the charge... a 5" charge is > 80%...

Hope this helps!

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Lady Olynder - 220
☆General
•Soul Cage

Arkhan the Black - 360

Spirit Torment - 120
¤Midnight Tome
•Shademist

Cairn Wraith - 60
¤Aetherquartz Pendant

Hexwraith x 5 - 140
Hexwraith x 5 - 140

Spirit Hosts x 6 - 240

Chainrasp Horde x 30 - 240

Bladegheist Revenants x 15 - 270

Soulsnare Shackles - 40
Aethervoid Pendulum - 50

Dolorous Guard - 120

--2000/2000 pts, 111 wounds

Arkhan is amazing post change. Mystic Shield spam, a 36" range true +2 unbind, guaranteed 3 wounds worth of regen for up to 4 summonables?  Crazy.

This list just drowns the opponent in mortals while being a regenerating brick. Keep 5 of your Hexwraiths on Arkhan to screen at all times+Look Out Sir,[EDIT: He is a monster so this doesn't work. Thanks, Uvatha!] they fly and keep up with him well enough. Dive Olynder and another 5 Wraiths into one side of the opponent, while leaving the Torment and Bladegheists off the table so that Crawlers or magic spam cannot remove your 5 wound hero + threaten the charge. This unit is where you want to save your command points, as most good players won't let you capitalize on Olynder spam, opting to focus fire. 

You can drop Pendulum if you want for another Command Point but starting with 2 and having the Aetherquartz on the field seems fine. Pendulum forces awkward movement turn one and is a fantastic use of Arkhan's +2 to cast.

Tier 1, nah. New guilty pleasure list, yes.

Edited by Nasrod
Correction of rules

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53 minutes ago, Mordread said:

@ Nasrod: How do you Spam Mystic Shild?

Arkhan and Nagash are allowed to cast arcane bolt and mystic shield multiple time. Look at their warscroll if you want to se for yourself 😊

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Thank you. I ve found it in the english warscroll. In the german warscroll stood Nothing about that. Would be a mistake.

 

Edited by Mordread

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What do you guys think about these 2 lists for Dolorous?

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (220)
- General
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spirit Drain
Spirit Torment (120)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
- Infernal Lantern (Artefact): Beacon of Nagashizzar
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome - Soul Cage 
20 x Grimghast Reapers (320)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
Black Coach (260)
Chainguard (120)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
 

Olynder with the wraiths on one side

GoS + Reapers on another

ST + Gheists in underworld for a later strike

Coach being annoying

Hordes for screen/late drop

KoS on either side

Spells

 

Was also thinking of this one but unsure

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (220)
Spirit Torment (120)
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
5 x Hexwraiths (140)
6 x Spirit Hosts (240)
10 x Grimghast Reapers (160)
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (180)
2 x Chainghasts (70)
Black Coach (260)
Dolorous (120)
Extra Command Point (50)
Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97

Oly + Hexs
GoS + Reapers
KoS cp make the reapers +1 atk
torment with the spirit hosts for re rolls (6mw)
revs + chainghast for surgical strikes

This one grabs me another CP, and tries to synergize returning models (coach + olynder). Lose spells and bodies

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10 hours ago, Nasrod said:

Keep 5 of your Hexwraiths on Arkhan to screen at all times+Look Out Sir,

Arkhan being a Monster (because of his mount I guess), he is excluded from the benefits of "Look Out Sir" rule?

 

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40 minutes ago, Uvatha said:

Arkhan being a Monster (because of his mount I guess), he is excluded from the benefits of "Look Out Sir" rule?

 

I mean, it hardly matters; the Dolorous Guard is a pretty rock solid defense. Pricey, yes, but 20 wounds for Arkhan is pretty freaking great.

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Can he be your General if he's an ally though ? I mean the Dolorous Guard only protects the General, not any Hero.

Edited by Aaranis

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"Allied units are treated as part of your army, except that they are not included when working out your army’s allegiance, and can therefore be part of a different Grand Alliance or faction. In addition, an allied model cannot be the army’s general, and cannot use or benefit from your army’s allegiance abilities."

Nah. And since these are Nighthaunt battalions, you can assume the Nighthaunt keyword is present and that likely means that only Nighthaunt generals could benefit from an ability a NH battalion grants, just in case someone thought there was a loophole.

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4 hours ago, Uvatha said:

Arkhan being a Monster (because of his mount I guess), he is excluded from the benefits of "Look Out Sir" rule?

 

A very good catch, tyvm. I'll edit the OP. Hurts this list a bit but doesn't kill it outright; you still want to keep a unit on him to screen from deep strikes or fliers.

--

To everyone else, no, Dolorous Guard does NOT let you make Arkhan a tanky nightmare. But I think it speaks volumes to the state Nighthaunt is in when they give us a battalion that adds a potential 20 wounds to a general and the response is "Imagine how insane this would be on Arkhan/any other awesome HQ." 

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1 minute ago, Nasrod said:

But I think it speaks volumes to the state Nighthaunt is in when they give us a battalion that adds a potential 20 wounds to a general and the response is "Imagine how insane this would be on Arkhan/any other awesome HQ." 

Eh, I'd debate on that.

Nighthaunt is a complicated faction. I think it speaks more about NH that even though they've been around since 2.0 dropped they get mostly point adjustments, LoG (which really is just including them like most Death into a Legion configuration), and now these new battalions instead of complete reworks.

Nighthaunt isn't meant to be a "Roll a dice, on a 3+ I auto-win" kind of army. We're not titans. It's clear with the latest armies that have come out and have seen updates that this sort of thing sells models, so yay for them I guess, but I'll hold that both NH and LoG can hold their own against any of them and still win. NH is a tactical army. Maybe even an advanced one.

I regularly beat Cities, for example. There are a couple of subfactions that can deal 20+ wounds a turn, and we evaporate under that kind of pressure. But, with careful planning and careful play, I tend to win (bad dice days notwithstanding).

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1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Eh, I'd debate on that.

Nighthaunt is a complicated faction. I think it speaks more about NH that even though they've been around since 2.0 dropped they get mostly point adjustments, LoG (which really is just including them like most Death into a Legion configuration), and now these new battalions instead of complete reworks.

Nighthaunt isn't meant to be a "Roll a dice, on a 3+ I auto-win" kind of army. We're not titans. It's clear with the latest armies that have come out and have seen updates that this sort of thing sells models, so yay for them I guess, but I'll hold that both NH and LoG can hold their own against any of them and still win. NH is a tactical army. Maybe even an advanced one.

I regularly beat Cities, for example. There are a couple of subfactions that can deal 20+ wounds a turn, and we evaporate under that kind of pressure. But, with careful planning and careful play, I tend to win (bad dice days notwithstanding).

You're right. It isn't "Roll 3+ and we auto win." It's "Roll inordinate amounts of 9+ and we win." :P But no, I'm being cheeky. Nightbaunt is very much a finesse army that has to basically steal wins via smart objective play. Other than Olynder and the 15 Bladegheists, the entire list is designed to tarpit and survive for as long as possible, because trying to out kill a Slaanesh, Skaven, or DoK list is impossible.

It is one of the big reasons I view Arkhan as a 150 point character at this point. 12 Banshees are considered auto include because it is our only -2 dispel. May as well upgrade at that point to 3 Mystic Shields, regen, and a +2 to cast wizard... all imo, of course. 

For the record, I think Dolorous Guard has done one thing: make it so my Olynder can stay on the table for 2 turns instead of 1. Any list not wanting to run her should still probably stick to LoG. That and the murder of Mortality Glass GoS still has me salty even months later.

Maybe one day the optimal use of our models will be using them within our own army!

Edited by Nasrod
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50 minutes ago, Nasrod said:

Maybe one day the optimal use of our models will be using them within our own army!

Imagine points costs for units depending on the army they're fighting for! Nagash would be more expensive for Bonereapers and for us Grimghast Reapers would go back to 360 points

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I agree about the state of NH as a whole. I'm playing Legion of Grief these days and when I considered going back to NH for some games I'm always thinking "But in NH when a unit dies, it dies" as Ivan Drago once said. It's hard to come out from an army that has plenty of CP and functions like a Death army should function: through sheer attrition. Nighthaunts are meant to strike hard and fast, but the top armies just tank us or hit harder and this strategy doesn't work. Go fight 30 Hearthguard Berserkers in Heimdarr and enjoy them fighting first every turn for a CP and drowning you in Mortal Wounds.

But every victory with NH is much more enjoyable in my opinion because I feel I deserve it everytime. NH are a shock army, lore-wise they come from nowhere, cripple the enemy assets and disappear, and that's very much how we have to play. At least I know I'm not cheesing when I play and everyone have fun at the table.

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Nighthaunt and LoG are very different playstyles.

Nighthaunt - A tactical strike force. Customizable via battalions and hero selection to deal with specific objectives and enemy armies. Special Forces.

Legion of Grief - A never-ending march. Dictating where the field of battle is by showing up and never going away. An occupying army.

The Nighthaunt's strengths are that you can configure them to suit the need and opponent. They have a bag of tricks that you can rummage through. You can meet and adapt to a meta or opponent by taking stock of your impending situation and drawing up a list that will best handle the threat. They prefer smaller-sized, multiple units to be in several areas at once, popping up anywhere on the table as needed, and overwhelming a target or two at a time by charging several units at them all in a turn, increasing your chances at Wave of Terror. Like any special forces team, knowing your tools and tactics are what matters, and you will win if you can master them, but no one list will ever conquer all enemies. They don't tend to win a lot of tournaments not because they are a bad army, but because you generally can bring only one list, and therefore one configuration, against an assortment of armies with varying strengths. This army requires you to "Know Thy Enemy" and mean it.

The Legion of Grief's strengths are that they are not paying a point tax to customize their army, so hero and unit choices are their sole customization, but they will field far more models and wounds than NH, and likely more than any opponent. They are an army that shows up, and shows up, and shows up (with a drop count to match) with nowhere else to go. They lumber forward, inevitably (and still faster than most), and you see them coming. They favor larger units where the only real concern on size is not making them so big that they can't fit into a gravesite's resurrection aura, but big enough that healing is never lost on them so they can stick around long enough to receive it. Gravesites allow them to not only dictate where the majority of the fighting will happen, but how fast or slow the fighting will be. Every unit is a tar pit, with teeth and rend, that just won't go away. They tend to be rated higher than NH in "competitiveness" because their lists don't lack the models to sit a few units aside to camp objectives while sending some damage dealers to whittle down the opponent. Tactics still count, but not like they do for NH. This army requires you to "Know Thyself" and mean it.

To me, it's pretty clear why LoG is a favorite, and I won't lie and say LoG hasn't been my favorite way to play lately. But these White Dwarf battalions give me hope for an army style I actually prefer, with a little touch of LoG's durability. Sure, it's not army-wide, but Dolorous means your general now has Hexwraith-shaped gravesites to heal from, at a greater potency, and even more so if your general has Ruler of the Spirit Host.

My biggest gripe with Nighthaunt will always be that the key tools in their kit that are supposed to define them, Wave of Terror and Deathless Spirits being prime examples, are too soft now. "Wholly within" should be FAQed out the army to match any of the newer books. Wave of Terror should be on an 8 or 9 before Deathriders' bonus, or depend on another mechanic entirely that we can actually dictate, like an Allegiance Command Ability along side Spectral Summons.

Edited by EnixLHQ
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44 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

At least I know I'm not cheesing when I play and everyone have fun at the table.

Oh man, I'm so envious right now. Personally I get a lot of salt playing Nighthaunt for our ethereal saves. As if that would make us OP or even... good. But with how much we pay for that, it just doesn't.

A friend of mine plays Deepkin and always loses against me. Of course he's quick to remind me that everything in my army has ethereal and he doesn't even eel-spam too much. As if I am cheesing while he's playing a toned down list.

But for the points that I pay for 20 Reapers (320), he brings 30 Thralls (360). Those guys wipe out 20 Reapers per turn on average even with ethereal so if I'd ever allowed him the charge there'd never be any counterattack. Meanwhile 20 Reapers kill barely over half of his Thralls (17 on average), so even if I get to fight first they kill almost half of them (9 on average) hitting back. And just because, their anti-hero weapons profile makes them all deal 2 damage with every attack *cries in Harridan*.  So even the "sub-par" unit in his army that hardly anyone plays competitively heavily outclass our best options. And that's pretty common that point for point Nighthaunt units don't hold up for damage and -crucially- even for defense.

Usually I don't like to rant. But I think it's pretty insulting just how much salt I get sometimes in my local gamestore. I WISH everyone would just have fun at the table when I bring my subpar NH instead of playing them as LoG. But only the other competitive players who know what it takes to make NH sing can appreciate the games without complaining. What more can I do than bring frigging Glaivewraith Stalkers and Chainghasts to my casual games? disheartened.jpg

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Honestly, at this point, I hardly think of things in Nighthaunt in terms of lethality; because, lets to be honest, about the deadliest things we can throw on the field is fully tricked out Bladegheists, Olynder or a huge horde of Grimghasts, and none of those are really game changing units.

Instead, when making a list, I usually think in terms of adding *just* enough damage to sucker punch a really scary unit, and the rest in mobility, durability and screening. An army that can't reach the objective's can't win, simple as that.  To that end, I usually only add a 10 or 15 man Squad of Bladegheist, and then just load up on screens and chaff, with the idea to drop the gheists, cripple what I need to, and then force the enemy to try and kill the rest of my army before the game is over. 

Let me put it bluntly: Nighthaunt will ***never*** win a game purely through brute force. Our units are simply, in other words, rubbish in the combat department. You need to harry the enemy, pick your fights, strike where you absolutely must, and then force them to come to you. Even the mighty Grimghast will simply evaporate once they run into a properly buffed out unit.

Now, none of this is the same for LoG, but seeing as to how LoG is a mico-faction in Forbidden Power, I wouldn't put much stock into them.

 

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7 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

What more can I do than bring frigging Glaivewraith Stalkers and Chainghasts to my casual games? disheartened.jpg

Drink their tears, for they give you strength. You are the commander of an army that feeds on fear and grief, after all.

What bothers me the most is fielding my models and being asked if I'm playing NH or LoG, and if I answer anything other than LoG I'm told I'm playing them wrong. The outcome no longer matters if they salted the table before we even play.

I'm the type of player who will tell you, on your turn, not to forget a key ability. So I appreciate opponents who like to work with me when I play than against me. These players make the game fun, and I try my best to foster that feeling whenever I'm at the table.

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Just now, EnixLHQ said:

Drink their tears, for they give you strength. You are the commander of an army that feeds on fear and grief, after all.

What bothers me the most is fielding my models and being asked if I'm playing NH or LoG, and if I answer anything other than LoG I'm told I'm playing them wrong. The outcome no longer matters if they salted the table before we even play.

I'm the type of player who will tell you, on your turn, not to forget a key ability. So I appreciate opponents who like to work with me when I play than against me. These players make the game fun, and I try my best to foster that feeling whenever I'm at the table.

Those are the best kind of opponents; those that are more than happy make the game fair. Even if it is as simple as reminding your opponent of rules or special abilities. 

Although, I will contend that LoG is probably not even the best way to play NH. That title belongs to bare bones LoN, since you can pretty much everything in that book. No kidding, LoS is my second go to instead of LoG, simply because being able to cast better and get good artifacts makes them a really appealing choice. 

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