AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Evil Bob]

48 minutes ago, IkedaT said:

Given the fact that I only BOUGHT Kudross to mess with my opponents CP's.... and the new army coming out doesn't USE CP's... (and they ignore bravery) means a COMMON army I'll be seeing can ignore pretty much all my shenanigans.    

Before Nighthaunt even came out Bravery debuffs in LoN did’t seem to matter.

[Panzer]

Last time Bravery really mattered I can remember was in warhammer fantasy where breaking morale was actually a chore mechanic to win fights (and it only worked there because winning a fight by X meant the enemy got a negative modifier of X for their test ... regular bravery checks like for Fear and Terror and such didn't work well either).

In not a single of GWs warhammer games with loose unit formations I've played so far has Bravery/LD/whatever really worked as it should because GW keeps giving immunity, high values and dimnishing effects away like free candy.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Panzer

[IkedaT]

Yea, but I was running LoG for their shenanigans

 

[Evil Bob]

1 hour ago, IkedaT said:

Yea, but I was running LoG for their shenanigans

 

I desperately want Deathsythes, Morghasts, and the mini Nagash head to work.  They kind of do the more fluffy the fight.

[Thamalys]

On 10/28/2019 at 11:36 AM, Neck-Romantic said:

Chill of the Grave; army wide frightful touch now triggers on unmodified rolls of 5 or 6 (hosts, hexes, Olynder/Kurdoss attendents, Reik, Mourngul, TombWraith)

Unfinished Business; army wide re-roll failed ethereal saves OR Deathless save increased to 5+ whichever is fair

Dreadful Determination; units that make a succesfull charge move now attack first in the combat phase regardless of any other factor or rule

Swift Apparitions; army wide 3" increased movement, and additional 3" pile-in

Mounting Terror; -1 bravery aura now cumulative, if an enemy unit receives -3/-4 (whatever is balanced) from this effect they may no longer ignore battleshock tests regardless of rules or bonuses 

Would be so easy to elevate us back into the meta! Why wasnt something like this in GHB19

All of the above?! Too much (very personal opinion, though!).

Unfinished Business (man, I like this a lot!) with a 5+ deathless save and Dreadful Determination alone will be a little revolution, solving one of the biggest NH issues - we pay an awful lot of points for our models as they are supposed to stay around for a long time (because of our ethereal saves) but they just don't, there's a crazy amount of damage out there! Now, 5+ instead of 6+ on top of an etheral save AND attacking first on charges... yes, yes *rubs hands* now we are talking.

[lare2]

All this theory crafting, which I love reading by the bye... is there actually any indication out there that NH will get any love any time soon?

[Platypus]

No.

 

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

So with Ossiarchs releasing soon... what would you all recommend fielding to oppose them?

[Neck-Romantic]

@thamalys

Ah, no you would pick one of those. Most army books in AoS and 40k now have options for what "clan" or "house" (or chapter or dynasty)  your army belongs to and you get an army wide buff

[Dracovski]

Hi,

 With the upcoming Christmas boxes I was considering starting a Nighthaunt army, https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/GiftsForGrots-Oct30-BattleforceNighthaunt27vcv.jpg

Would this be a solid force or would I need more? If so, is the Nighthaunt half of the Soul Wars box a good combination?

 I’m not aiming for a highly competitive list, just something that’ll do okay-ish and is fun :) 

[dmorley21]

19 hours ago, lare2 said:

All this theory crafting, which I love reading by the bye... is there actually any indication out there that NH will get any love any time soon?

Nope. The next update will be GHB 2020 with point changes. Since all armies will hopefully have books by then, maybe NH will get a little rules update in there like a new battalion. That's about the best case scenario though.

@Neck-Romantic

As for your ideas, I just don't think chambers work for NH, just like I don't think faction terrain works for them. 

I'd say for overall rules, get rid of Feed on Terror and give it to LoG. Then update Wave of Terror to Waves of Terror:

Enemy units within 6" of a friendly NH unit are minus 1 bravery. A NH unit that had a successful charge this turn gets to fight at the start of the combat phase. A unit that rolls an unmodified 10+ gets to fight right away and again at the start of the combat phase. 

I don't think this would be overpowered because it's an ability that can be played against with screens and counter charges. Most other abilities that are always fight first can't be stopped. 

Overall though, I think revised warscrolls would make the biggest difference. 

[S133arcanite]

I'd love Stormhosts for Nighthaunt. Maybe:

Frostbite Procession- Wintery, bitter spirits

Chained Phantoms- Ghosts of Convicts and Prisoners

The Weeping Procession- Inordinate number of Banshees

etc. etc.

[lare2]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

Nope. The next update will be GHB 2020 with point changes. Since all armies will hopefully have books by then, maybe NH will get a little rules update in there like a new battalion. That's about the best case scenario though.

Cool - thanks for response. Slowly moving over from skellies to ghosts. Not gonna let the lack of love stop me.

[Neck-Romantic]

@dmorley21

To each their own. 

With the ones I cobbled together you could address ONE of the glaring weaknesses in the NH book that impact one's playstyle the most;

The movement + pile in deals with screens, the army wide frightful  on 5's deals with durable/defensive reroll shenanigan enemies, the strikes-furst-on-charge counters activation wars, and the cumulative bravery debuff/immunity pierce is obvious. The durability one is just broad.

But you can only pick one.

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, S133arcanite said:

I'd love Stormhosts for Nighthaunt. Maybe:

Frostbite Procession- Wintery, bitter spirits

Chained Phantoms- Ghosts of Convicts and Prisoners

The Weeping Procession- Inordinate number of Banshees

etc. etc.

Okay, your first one led me to an idea. 

The way I look at the lore, now that Olynder is leading the Legion of Grief, Nighthaunt are actually almost more like FEC or an order of Destruction and I don't think that works for Stormhosts. But you could say your ghosts come from a certain realm and that could give them an additional special rule. I'd be down with that. 

[Spears]

It seems like there are some quality of life issues with Nighthaunt if you embrace the core concept of the army as being around deepstriking:

The very small buff ranges make managing these whilst charging from underworlds very difficult. Playing against more modern armies really highlights how many hoops you need to jump through just to get a subpar version of buffs available elsewhere. The NH book definitely feels like they were trying to cut down on stringing lines of people back to a banner, but its clear from the different versions of the buff ranges in the book and soulwars that the ranges were finalised quite late and perhaps arent quite right.  Either extending the ranges or removing wholly within for a number of buffs and spells would make everything feel a lot smoother.

Without cogs successfully charging from deep strike is risky.  You also end up having to make wierd shapes to give the characters room to charge into within the main unit whilst mainting buff range if the character fails the charge. An inherent charge bonus on the turn we deepstrike that doesnt interact with WOT would go a long way to making them feel like an army with a purpose rather than the gamblers choice.

 

I think both of these could be fixed relatively safely without a whole new book. It doesn't solve the real power problem with the faction though.

Nighthaunt have to fight, their shooting and offensive magic is abysmal.  With no way to interact with a buff piece that isnt out in the open the army eventually has to charge your opponent, but once they do they arent good enough in the combat phase to actually go toe to toe with other fighting armies. So you fight, die and then dont have the recursion available to Legions of Nagash. Even in victories I find myself normally on the way to getting tabled,  I dont think there is an easy fix for this though. 

 

 

[Neck-Romantic]

@spears

True. Most of my wins were decided early with either succesful deepstrike charges or a large unit getting WoT.

Also I think always-strikes-first on the charge could be a little too powerful now that I ponder.. bladegheists would be insane. Maybe first strike OR double attack but not both

Edited October 31, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Evil Bob]

15 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Snip

Also I think always-strikes-first on the charge could be a little too powerful now that I ponder.. bladegheists would be insane. Maybe first strike OR double attack but not both

Anyone putting serious thought into the game probably has some version of The Activation Wars syndrome on the brain.  I haven’t seen a general game mechanic cause so much angst since free reinforcements in AoS 1.0

[Tropical Ghost General]

I think the key for NH to start doing well, with what we currently have access to, is finding ways to reliably heal/revive and adding negative to hit modifiers. 

I played a game as LoN for the first time in 2nd edition and the bringing back entire units and gravesites was silly good. 

Outside of taking LoG I don't know what the answer is. And now that Arkhan no longer knows the spells of all DEATH wizards, his use as a magical ally isn't as useful. His healing is better but other mortarch might be worth looking into. Neffy can give a decent -1 to hit aura, coven throne is really good, Mannfred can give those rerolls of 1s to hit and wound, or even 2-3 VLs for deathly invocation healing. Potentially looking at endless spells. Maybe utilising multiple black coaches in a list. 

But one thing is obvious from our rules is that healing/reviving is meant to be a large mechanic of the army, but they tried a toned down version of LoN and it's just too ineffective and way too easy to counter. As soon as you can figure out the solution to healing/reviving I think that you can  start to see a marked improvement in NH performance. 

[Sauriv]

I'm going to a tournament with 25 participants this weekend. I'm trying a different deepstrike list with +to hit shenanigans and sword of judgment. I hope for it to work in a more compatible environment but it worked well against my friends at least . 

Using Reikenor to cast cogs reliable, look for a weak spot and deepstrike. 

I'm having up to +3 to the hit roll so in the best of worlds i get a trigger on a 3+. 

But I'm probably going to give a full report on the list and how it performed after the tournament. 

[Spears]

What are you putting the sword on? 

[Sauriv]

On a lord executioner!🙃

I get +1 from execution horde

+1 fron KoS 

(+1 with spell from olynder) 

So, quite a different list

[Tropical Ghost General]

OK, so been theory crafting something that needs some play testing and stuff. 

Dreadblade x 2, 15 hexwraiths x 2, 10 chainrasps x 2, black coach, Mannfred, death riders battalion & extra CP. 2000pts, 4 drops, take aetherquartz brooch on one of the dreadblade for CP farming. Mannfred and BC heals, Mannfred gives reroll 1s on hit and wounds. Rasps for objective holding. 

Going to road test it in the next few weeks. Will pass on my findings 

[Neck-Romantic]

Kinda tiny overall force for 2k O.O

[Tropical Ghost General]

It's super elite not many bodies 😂

*edit: so it's 113 wounds, which isn't too bad for ghosts at 2k. It's not like my idea for 6 x 40 rasp list, plus heroes, that's closer to 260 wounds 😂. *

Edited November 2, 2019 by Tropical Ghost General